The mud one needs to have a camera showing the truck going through the mud. Seems like I am more interested in how the trucks tires are going through mud that where the truck is going.
Heading up to Godiva Peak in Eureka, Utah Friday. That'll be a good climb up a mountain with some good rock hopping but unfortunately no mud or sand up there.
What do we know about the differences between mud/sand/snow selections? Is that an improvement over the G1's manual VTM-4 lock and ability to disable VSA for sand, mud, and deep snow... which allows wheelspin in order to maintain momentum? Is there a VSA disable switch on the panel? I assume the G2 still has VSA?
Have been using my new RTL at the Texas Gulf Coast beach, and have used the Sand mode each time. Mix of hard pack and some wind-blown loose sand about 6 -8 inches deep. When in Sand mode, pressing the accelerator slightly gives immediate response to the drivetrain and starts the truck moving. Have to be careful to watch the speed so the truck doesn't jump past 15 mph limit on the beach. Oh, Traction control indicator symbol shows off in Sand mode. Will have to defer to experts if this is actuall off or just low level operation.
Contrast with Normal mode where there is a slow engagement as you press the accelerator and you have the ability to creep very very slowly. So far in Sand mode seems to be surefooted, although this darn truck is just too new for me to venture into the really deep loose sand or try a standing start in the moderate depth loose sand.
When in Sand mode, pressing the accelerator slightly gives immediate response to the drivetrain and starts the truck moving. Have to be careful to watch the speed so the truck doesn't jump past 15 mph limit on the beach.
Today during my lunch break I played with the different driving modes some. I have to say that Sand mode is a lot of fun! With all other modes the difference was subtle, but in Sand mode there is a dramatic difference.
It seems like I heard/read that the 0-60 time isn't improved with Sand mode over Normal mode, but I don't see how this is possible because the truck jumps off the line and it doesn't shift until a much higher RPM.
It seems like it keeps the truck one gear lower (maybe even 2 gears at higher speeds) than it would be in Normal mode. This makes it so that tapping the gas causes the truck to really jump forward. Obviously the engine noise is louder (which sounds good when accelerating) and fuel consumption I'm sure is much higher.
Sand mode might come to be known as "Sport" mode...
I wouldn't use anything but normal mode in traffic on dry pavement. Why?
1. We don't know what damage or excessive wear (if any) might be occurring to clutches in the iVTM-4 unit. The vehicle allows other modes to be selected and the manual doesn't specifically warn against using other modes on dry pavement, but there's still reason 2 below. For G2 owners who aren't familiar with the G1, the G1 had a "VTM-4 LOCK" mode that could "lock" the rear wheels to help get you unstuck. It would only work in 1st, 2nd, or reverse. Using it on dry pavement results in increased wear and likely damage to the VTM-4 unit.
2. In sand mode, the throttle becomes very sensitive. Just touching the accelerator pedal seems to produce about 1/3 throttle or more - the vehicle can dart out into traffic unexpectedly. Do NOT use this in a parking lot! You've been warned! It wouldn't surprise me if Honda release a software and/or manual update to alter or warn against using the function except for the intended purpose.
For G2 owners who aren't familiar with the G1, the G1 had a "VTM-4 LOCK" mode that could "lock" the rear wheels to help get you unstuck. It would only work in 1st, 2nd, or reverse. Using it on dry pavement results in increased wear and likely damage to the VTM-4 unit.
Just to be clear about this, I view VTM-4 (I don't know enough about iVTM-4 yet) like a conventional, mechanical 4wd system. Only use it in slippery conditions so you don't get bind in the driveline that is not easily removed by a tire slipping on the terrain.
You can engage manual lock on the G1 and hear the slippage occurring when you back up and turn at the same time in gravel. If that slippage can't occur (as on dry pavement), the driveline will bind and something will give somewhere. Ergo the admonishment to not use 4wd/locked diffs on dry pavement or high traction surfaces.
That being said, I see no reason for any damage to occur if you use manual lock (or the G2 equivalent) on dry pavement as long as you go in a straight line and have equal tire pressures all around (so that all tires travel the same distance). Then again, I see no reason to engage it on dry pavement anyway (unless you are testing something)!
I too am interested to hear real world experience with the sand mode. we have a drive on beach nearby where I'm looking forward to taking the truck and hoping it performs well.
I too am interested to hear real world experience with the sand mode. we have a drive on beach nearby where I'm looking forward to taking the truck and hoping it performs well.
The last month I’ve been hunting some cut corn fields and my property which has a logging road with wet low spots.
Sand mode locks the rear differential and disables the features that bog it down. In standard awd as soon as the tires spin everything wants to slow down. In sand mode all the wheels keep churning and I can go through no problem at all
Thanks zrog. 0.8% overdrive for the RL. If I knew that, I'd forgotten it. That's quite a change from the VTM-4 to the iVTM-4 system. I wonder how that overdrive function works? Is that number driven by gear ratios?
So for the VTM-4 system, the rear wheels go 1.008 times the front wheels?
"...For a brief introduction of what is a planetary gear set, please refer to the Appendix 1 at the end of this article. For SH-AWD, there is a planetary gear set for each rear wheel. The Ring Gear is connected to the center drive shaft (via the hypoid gear); the Planet Gear Carrier is connected to the half rear axle (which drives the rear wheel); One group of the clutch plate is connected to the Sun Gear, and the other group of the clutch plates is fixed to the rear power unit casing and is completely stationary. The below image clearly shows how the clutch pack is constructed in the rear drive unit.
If the clutch pack is fully locked up (which means the Sun Gear is stationary), the different gear numbers between the Ring Gear and the Planet Gear will cause the Ring Gear (connected to the front wheel ultimately) and the Planet Gear Carrier (connected to the rear wheel) to spin at different speeds, thus the rear wheel will spin 1.7% faster (overdriven) than the front wheel…"
But in the i-VTM4, the planetary gear sets have been removed. I believe the 2.7% difference comes from different ring and pinion ratios between front and rear.
Honda published a paper describing this in more detail: http://papers.sae.org/2015-01-1098/
The Ridgeline AWD system is a fulltime system that requires no driver interaction or monitoring, thanks to a torque-transfer unit that is bolted directly to the front-mounted transaxle. The torque-transfer unit receives torque from a helical gear that is attached to the front differential's ring gear, and a short horizontal shaft and hypoid gear set within the torque-transfer unit's case send power to the rear propeller shaft, which in turn transfers power to the rear drive unit that has a 20-percent greater torque capacity.
"...The Ridgeline's new, lightweight rear drive unit is 22 lbs. (10 kg) lighter than the previous generation Ridgeline unit and is constantly overdriven by 2.7 percent. The resulting overdrive effect is regulated by left- and right-side clutch packs (located in the rear differential) that independently control the power delivered to each rear wheel. The significant overdrive percentage in the new Ridgeline means that the torque vectoring effect is pronounced and effective even in corners with a radius of as little as 49.2 feet (15 meters). This means that torque vectoring can be felt when accelerating aggressively through a typical corner.
Hydraulically operated clutch systems mounted on either side of the hypoid gear that drives the rear axles control the amount of torque sent to each rear wheel and provide a limited-slip differential function when needed. The clutches can be controlled as a pair to alter front/rear torque split or they can be controlled independently to allow 100 percent of available rear axle torque to go to just one rear wheel. A single electric motor powers a pair of hydraulic pumps—one for each clutch pack. An Electronic Control Unit (ECU) controlled linear solenoid valve selectively sends pressure to the clutch packs, which in turn control the amount of power sent to each rear wheel. The clutch packs and their friction material are carefully designed to withstand the small amount of continuous slip between front and rear axles created by the 2.7-percent speed differential—all while delivering the durability expected of a Honda product…"
Will be interesting to see how long those clutch packs really last, in the real world instead of the engineering lab.
Great info Outahere. Thanks. I hope iVTM-4 is at least as durable as VTM-4. While there is some suspicion that there are many VTM-4 silent failures out there, I would think the failure wouldn't be as silent as postulated. I would think excessive torque steer and front wheel burnouts would be a pretty solid indicator of such a failure. ??
In that regard, I wonder how the FWD G2 RL drives relative to the AWD G2 RL? If they drive similarly, I wonder how Honda tamed torque steer and limited front wheel spin?
Does anyone have an accurate explanation of exaxtly how the snow, mud and sand modes work? What difference do each of these modes provide? Is there any Honda "factory" information available? Thanks!
It is kind of a lot of physics. You are trying to move something on a dry surface with good running shoes on (good traction), you push forward, just forward. It is a slippery surface you move your feet a bit, outward, trying to gather more traction to push forward? It does this with the front and rear wheels. It moves the power to where you will get the best traction, best forward propulsion.
I just bought a rigeline RTL_E 2 week ago and I just tried it on the beach in the sand in the truth I was stuck for a few minutes but managed to get out, I came to the conclusion that I put some off road tires would be better for to be able to handle it in the sand in the dunes that was my experience only a few days ago
At 18:54 in this video a Honda engineer begins an insightful talk about the AWD traction management system and some general explanation of the idea behind the traction modes. He specifies that Sand Mode is designed for optimum engine & tranny behavior for under-inflated tires in sand as well as disabling the low tire pressure warnings.
I've used snow mode a few times but am almost never in a situation to use the other modes, and I missed my chance.
A couple of weeks ago, I was cutting up a tree in my parents yard that had come down in a storm. I drove down their back yard and set up, starting cutting and at some point the tree bound up on the chainsaw. I couldn't budge the tree, so I tied it up to the Ridgeline to pull it ( I only needed an inch or so to free the blade) but the ground was wet and I spun the tires. I ended up tearing up the grass a bit but I got the tree moved enough to free the chainsaw.
It wasn't until I got out of the truck when I realized I missed my opportunity to put it in Mud mode. I wonder if it would have saved the grass.
However you want to clarify it, the 2G RL does not have a locking differential. Locking differentials do not allow the rear wheels to spin at different speeds. The RL is using clutch packs as you stated to allow the wheel which is not moving to engage when the other is "slipping" That is not a locking differential. Locking differentials engage so both rear wheels spin at the same time all the time.
It is not a true locking differential just the same as the G1 does not have a true locking differential. G1 owners who are considering the G2 often lament that the G2 does not have the "locking" feature that the G1 has. All I am saying here is that Sand mode will do essentially the same thing as the "locking" feature in the G1.
They mention in this article how the rear is electronically "locked" when in Sand mode. Screenshot attached.
Nobody expected the 2017 Honda Ridgeline to be a hardcore off-roader. It simply lacks the low gearing and solid axles typically suited to crushing rocks. But Honda’s new pickup still holds its own over rough terrain, and here’s how. Call it “better off-roading through science.”
5:24. If this was a locking diff, both rear wheels would spin at the same time. As you can see, one wheel is slipping and the other is not moving. This is a good example of the clutch packs working as you explained, but it is certainly not a locked diff.
This appear to duplicate the test I put my 2006 Pilot and 2008 Ridgeline through many years ago. Both failed to climb the berm unless VSA was engaged so the front could help pull it up. IIRC. It's been a long time since I did that testing.
Took the kids to a nearby lake for some afternoon fishing today. Driving back from the lake we were in a grassy area with a nice but short incline which unloaded the RF wheel as I climbed (at an angle) a short berm. When the RF wheel unloaded enough, it began to spin lightly (not unexpected)...
In Sand mode the rear "differential" (really is a automatic tranny differential clutch pack system) applies more power even during times of wheel slip and allows the engine power to occur anyway instead of cutting it back to limit the wheel slip. See, that's the Honda advantage. The same but not the same. Higher tech for whatever that worth is. (some won't like higher tech)