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D3 for towing

28K views 21 replies 12 participants last post by  CaptChip 
#1 ·
Daughter and husband tow an inboard ski boat with their 2011 Pilot. When the transmission starts "hunting" they shift to D3. Problem solved. After driving the Pilot, the Ridgeline is on my short list. Does the Ridgeline transmission have the same capability to be operated in 1st, 2nd,and 3rd (D3)locking out 4th and 5th gear (both are overdrive) to prevent "hunting" ? Nearest dealer is some distance from home.
Thanks
Tom
 
#2 ·
Yes it does have the D3 gear
 
#3 ·
The manual says to only use D3 for hill descent, but that seems silly to me. Lugging and hunting are the things that wear the motor and transmission, repectively, when towing. If running D3 prevents either in your particular load/trip combo, then IMHO use the tool that is there.

KeS
 
#4 ·
2011 Pilot manual Pg.447 states, "Use D position when towing a trailer on level roads. D3 is the proper shift lever position to use when towing a trailer in hilly terrain." Pg 448 states "If automatic transmission shifts frequently while going up hill, shift to D3." Sounds like the way to go.
Tom
 
#5 · (Edited)
My 2008 OM provides different instructions and guides against that logic. The Honda auto tranny is different from conventional automatics. It doesn't use planetary gears and consequently has smaller clutches that work with higher pressures and temps.

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showth...o-read-this*&p=3080121&viewfull=1#post3080121



I have seen no guidance for transmission selection when towing in hilly terrain. The same page that cautions against using D3 also says to use 2 (D2) for more power when climbing. But it doesn't mention towing.

Guess you're only supposed to tow on level ground. ;)

Question for those of you with newer (2009-) RLs: are the transmission instructions different that what my 2008 OM says? More in line with what the 2011 Pilot manual says quoted in the post above?
 
#6 ·
I have seen no guidance for transmission selection when towing in hilly terrain.
Let it hunt. Use D3 if necessary for downhill braking.
Guess you're only supposed to tow on level ground. ;)
No, you can tow on hills. :) It will rev a lot on the uphills. Let it rev.
Question for those of you with newer (2009-) RLs: are the transmission instructions different that what my 2008 OM says?
They are the same. It's probably even more important for 2009 and newer, since the mid-range gearing is lower.
More in line with what the 2011 Pilot manual says quoted in the post above?
Nope. The Pilot is a different vehicle with a different engine and transmission. They are similar in design, but not the same. The Ridgeline's design favours towing more than the Pilot.

Let it hunt and rev when needed.
 
#8 ·
Do NOT let it hunt if you can avoid it. This is one of the main reasons transmissions fail in vehicles like these. Continued shifting and torque converter slipping cause heat to build up relatively quickly especially under a heavy load, like towing at highway speeds. Stick it in D3 or D4, which ever causes the vehicle to minimize shifting. The engine will handle the higher revs just fine an will not cause any significant additional wear. Your fuel mileage will suffer, but a few extras bucks on gas is a lot better than buying a new trans. Unfortunately the trans in 1st gen MDXs is the weakest link...so baby it when you can.
 
#13 ·
Do NOT let it hunt if you can avoid it. This is one of the main reasons transmissions fail in vehicles like these.
Vehicles like what?
Continued shifting and torque converter slipping cause heat to build up relatively quickly especially under a heavy load, like towing at highway speeds.
On the Ridgeline, the ECU will monitor transmission temperature and lock the torque converter to prevent overheating. See http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/showpost.php?p=245541&postcount=220 .
Stick it in D3 or D4, which ever causes the vehicle to minimize shifting.
Welcome to the ROC... now, are you sure that you are on the forum for the correct vehicle? The Ridgeline does not have a way to limit it to D4. It can only limit to D3, and the OM specifically says to not use that as a towing mode. As the lead engineer says in the above link, "Just tow in drive and plant your foot into the accelerator."
The engine will handle the higher revs just fine an will not cause any significant additional wear.
Correct. The warning in the OM is specifically about risk to the transmission by sustained locking to D3.
Your fuel mileage will suffer, but a few extras bucks on gas is a lot better than buying a new trans.
Avoiding routine use of D3 is apparently all about protecting the transmission.
Unfortunately the trans in 1st gen MDXs is the weakest link...so baby it when you can.
Early prototypes of the Ridgeline were based on the MDX, but the final product is not an MDX.

You couldn't be more correct! Let's continue to look at this.
Okay! :)
I was taught to not let an automatic trans "hunt''. I don't know if that is right or wrong.
It might be right for most automatic transmissions, which use a planetary gearing system. The Ridgeline doesn't have one of those (nor do any Honda AT's that I know of).
Engines seem to be the same except the Pilot has VCM, RL doesn't.
Why do you say that? Is it because they have the same displacement?
Transmission is the same except for 5th gear. Pilot=0.612, RL=0.538. Transfer assembly is the same. Final drive ratio is different. Pilot=4.312, RL=4.533. There may be other differences that don't show on the Honda website. ECM programs may be different, etc. About the only significant difference is the gearing.
Again, there is no reason to conclude from reading certain spec sheets that the differences that you can find there are the only differences.

You might want to see the series of four videos from the Ridgeline's car show introduction, done in a very dry and engineering-oriented style by the head of engineering for the Ridgeline. Here is Part 3, talking about the engine and transmission:

The specs did change slightly from what was given there to when it shipped. Most worth hearing: "It is NOT the same engine that's in a Pilot. This transmission was also specifically developed for this vehicle. It's a vehicle that is designed to tow and work as a truck from the ground up."
That would allow the RL to pull more weight.
That and other stuff, yes. :) Others have posted more details in the past on the ROC. Sorry, but I just don't have all of the references saved. Hopefully they'll chime in again.
But that doesn't address the question off allowing "hunting" or not.
Two other things that haven't been repeated in this thread:

1. The 2009 model year had engine and transmission changes that may lead to less hunting at highway speeds.

2. Use premium fuel for towing. It may also reduce hunting.
Must be some Honda transmission experts out there.
Gary Flint is the expert, and I have cited him twice above (in the video and the post about TC lockup).
Differences in the wording in the manuals may be due to recent revisions in the Pilot OM.
I don't have an explanation for the Pilot OM's wording. Maybe it's wrong, or maybe other engineers who have worked on the new model did things differently than with the Ridgeline.
Someone must have a 2011 or 2012 RL OM.
Tom
I don't think that it's changed since 2009, and this particular piece of advice (about NOT using D3 as a towing mode) has not changed since the original 2006 model.

"Just tow in drive and plant your foot into the accelerator."
 
#9 ·
Nothing like conflicting information.
 
#11 ·
You couldn't be more correct! Let's continue to look at this. I was taught to not let an automatic trans "hunt''. I don't know if that is right or wrong. Engines seem to be the same except the Pilot has VCM, RL doesn't. Transmission is the same except for 5th gear. Pilot=0.612, RL=0.538. Transfer assembly is the same. Final drive ratio is different. Pilot=4.312, RL=4.533. There may be other differences that don't show on the Honda website. ECM programs may be different, etc. About the only significant difference is the gearing. That would allow the RL to pull more weight. But that doesn't address the question off allowing "hunting" or not. Must be some Honda transmission experts out there.
Differences in the wording in the manuals may be due to recent revisions in the Pilot OM. Someone must have a 2011 or 2012 RL OM.
Tom
 
#10 ·
I've actually experienced the opposite of hunting, but maybe the ones who tow should weigh in: When I was climbing some of the roads in NM and CO, I found the truck would 'hang' in 3rd on hills and only upshift after the road leveled. I tried a few times to get it into D4 on occasion by lifting etc and no.. the truck seemed content to stay there even at 65-70. I was not hauling anything more than a weeks worth of travel gear.

My thoughts while driving? It must be a different set of algorithms; if it 'thinks' that you're towing/climbing it switches over into another mode and holds back on shifting.

Since I've been back in prairie-land, the truck loves shifting low and holding 5th locked. The truck seems to be smarter on a lot of things so I'd be for just letting the truck figure out what it wanted to do.
 
#14 ·
Again, :shrug:. First you say that hunting isn't a problem, then you say that changes were made in 2009 to reduce hunting.

I don't dispute Gary Flint's engineering ability, but when he makes a video about "communicating a strong and powerful emotional sound", and says things like "the cool air intake (provides) maximum torque available under high temperature conditions... for example at a boat ramp", it's clear he's not talking at a technical level. Likewise, the owner's manual (like all owner's manuals) is directed at a non-technical audience with a seventh-grade reading level, with a primary goal of having them not blow up anything expensive that would cause a lawsuit or warranty claim.

IMHO people are trying to infer much too much from non-technical references, due to a paucity of hard info. Regardless, it's hard to understand how it can be better for the truck to throw a 3-4-5 upshift at a momentary flat spot in the road or need to slow to allow a car to merge, only to have to shift back down to 3 two seconds later; rather than remain in 3 during that time.

KeS
 
#15 ·
Again, :shrug:. First you say that hunting isn't a problem, then you say that changes were made in 2009 to reduce hunting.
It's not a problem (for the truck). It's annoying to many people who expect less hunting. I merely filled in more information that was relevant.

I used to be a bit annoyed by hunting too, and wished for a D4 lock. After reading Gary's posts and just getting used to it, I've stopped being annoyed. Emotional responses to technical issues aren't worth the stress.
I don't dispute Gary Flint's engineering ability, but when he makes a video about "communicating a strong and powerful emotional sound", and says things like "the cool air intake (provides) maximum torque available under high temperature conditions... for example at a boat ramp", it's clear he's not talking at a technical level.
He does take a break from the technical chat there. If you look at all of the videos, he's clearly a former nerd who's trying to make technical material digestible, with mixed results. In Part 1, he's talking about "vertical input of the tailgate" and such.
Likewise, the owner's manual (like all owner's manuals) is directed at a non-technical audience with a seventh-grade reading level, with a primary goal of having them not blow up anything expensive that would cause a lawsuit or warranty claim.
Looking at many areas of the manual regarding the calculation of capacities for hauling and towing, it's non-trivial. I do agree that there are some areas that are oversimplified, such as the advice on (not) using a WDH or reasonable limits on use of VTM-4 Lock.
IMHO people are trying to infer much too much from non-technical references, due to a paucity of hard info.
Possibly, but when it's backed up by the lead engineer personally coming to the forum and reinforcing the message by saying "Just tow in drive and plant your foot into the accelerator," that's going to be the take-away message for me.
Regardless, it's hard to understand how it can be better for the truck to throw a 3-4-5 upshift at a momentary flat spot in the road or need to slow to allow a car to merge, only to have to shift back down to 3 two seconds later; rather than remain in 3 during that time.
KeS
All of the information from Honda is that the latter is worse (for the Ridgeline, not the Pilot). It would be great to have an explanation from Honda about the discrepancy of advice between models.
 
#16 ·
According to this wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_J_engine

the Honda J35A9 was used on both my 2006 Pilot and my 2008 RL.


That would tend to make me think they are the same engines.

Here's some info on the Honda automatic tranny:
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef02326/0#MSG0
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showth...o-read-this*&p=3080121&viewfull=1#post3080121

And here are the differences between the 2006-2008 and the 2009- tranny ratios:


I don't know what engine changes were made in 2009. But the wiki gives this info:
 
#17 ·
I've said it before, "go drive a new Silverado 4x4 in hilly country". It hunts much the same as the Ridgeline. I don't understand this fixation on hunting. It is what it is and doesn't bother me at all. My '06 bought April '05 and used extensively for towing in temps above 100° still acts like new.:act027:
 
#18 ·
Especially with the 6-speed. More gears = more shifting to stay in the optimum gear ratio. If you want to see some serious hunting, try towing a small U-Haul trailer behind a vehicle with an 8-speed automatic. Or, even an early 80s, 4-speed, mechanically-controlled transmission with overdrive. :) The Ridgeline's engine is happy at higher RPMs. The engine is by no means a torque monster and probably doesn't wear as much between shifts as you may think. Personally, I'd follow the manual. Since the engine and transmission are warranted for 5 years or 60,000 miles, Honda's instructions should be appropriate for towing within its limits and using D. If Honda says use D, not D3, for towing, then that's probably best since they don't want to replace an engine or transmission under warranty for at least 60,000 miles under these conditions. If the transmission blows up after towing a 5,000 lb. trailer for 60,001 miles, then who can complain?
 
#19 · (Edited)
The Ridgeline is a multi-purpose vehicle. Again, a truck that does several things well, but certainly not a full time tow vehicle. Except for the 'hilly terrain' scenario, I would rarely have it in any mode except Drive.
I think when Flint mentioned '4th' he was thinking of Drive, as it is unlikely your foot or the load would ever be light enough for it to drop into 5th. Poor communication on his part, though.
Even with a load, I think he is saying just keep in Drive. Not any different when you have a light load at freeway speeds and you are in Cruise and it downshifts on it's on when you hit some grades. It hangs at higher revs, but I think that delay may be purposely programmed just to avoid hunting, while ensuring the vehicle has sufficient time to retain some momentum that is sufficient for operating in a higher gear.
 
#20 ·
Welcome to the ROC Rower4VT:cheerleader:
 
#22 ·
FYI: I had just changed TX fluid the day before the trip. After reading all of the suggested posts, I will now tow in D thus forward. I have towed now twice since in D with no problems. I'll use D3 only downhill in the mountains, the constant hunting really doesn't concern me after studying this situation. Thanks to all!
 
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