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post #41 of 78 (permalink) Old 11-28-2012, 05:22 AM
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Re: Consumer Reports Downgrade: Fuel System Reliability

Joe - we have this same discussion each time the CR versus JD Powers debate fears it's head. Unless it has changed in the past two months, Both companies collect the data that is released to the public through owner surveys. Both are equally prone to the data problems you describe. BUT: CR has larger sample sizes, tracks vehicles each year, and collects far more data points. JD stops following cars after 3 years, CR follows cars much, much longer. I can see no advantage to the JD data for the average consumer who is likely to keep a car 5-6 years because the JD data provides NO information in reliability for more than half the time that person is the owner. Moreover, "real world" experience by owners AND extended warranty companies (who price products based in long term reliability and durability) are almost lock-step with CR ratings. JD ratings are very inconsistent with those of CR and extended warranty companies. JD might be fine for manufacturers, but it isn't necessarily good data for consumers to use in making long-term purchasing decisions. IMO as always. And from one data geek to another... :-)

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post #42 of 78 (permalink) Old 11-28-2012, 06:15 AM
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Re: Consumer Reports Downgrade: Fuel System Reliability

I agree with Uncle Festus. I'll bet those are due to the Tighten Fuel Cap alert.

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post #43 of 78 (permalink) Old 11-28-2012, 06:27 AM
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Re: Consumer Reports Downgrade: Fuel System Reliability

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Festus View Post
I suspect that it is due to the "Tighten Fuel Cap" issue. That is the only fuel system issue I have seen repeatedly referenced on this and other forums, and it is the only issue I have had with my RTL so far.

I have been contacted for a number of different ownership surveys about my vehicles over the years, and have done 5 or 6 for the Ridgeline so far. The only issue I have reported on the surveys so far is the "Tighten Fuel Cap" issue, it has popped up several times.

It is little more than an annoyance IMHO, but by failing to address it Honda now has a consumer survey out there telling customers that there is a "fuel system problem" with their truck. That will directly cost them money, because consumers will associate "fuel system problem" with possible major expense, breakdowns, headaches, and the heartbreak of psoriasis. Doesn't matter if its TRUE, only that the customer is now given a negative data point. The damage is done.
Agree with this. While (knock on wood) I haven't experienced the Tighten Fuel cap issue on my '12 Ridgeline, my wife had it occur on our '11 Odyssey several times. Despite that though, it seemingly went away on it's own...

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post #44 of 78 (permalink) Old 11-28-2012, 07:40 AM
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Re: Consumer Reports Downgrade: Fuel System Reliability

I just did a search on Tighten Fuel cap issues. http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/f...Findex.php&ss=

I think we have the answer right here on this forum.

Thanks Uncle Festus for clearing this up.

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post #45 of 78 (permalink) Old 11-28-2012, 07:41 AM
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Re: Consumer Reports Downgrade: Fuel System Reliability

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Originally Posted by WNY PAT View Post
Joe - we have this same discussion each time the CR versus JD Powers debate fears it's head. Unless it has changed in the past two months, Both companies collect the data that is released to the public through owner surveys. Both are equally prone to the data problems you describe. BUT: CR has larger sample sizes, tracks vehicles each year, and collects far more data points. JD stops following cars after 3 years, CR follows cars much, much longer. I can see no advantage to the JD data for the average consumer who is likely to keep a car 5-6 years because the JD data provides NO information in reliability for more than half the time that person is the owner. Moreover, "real world" experience by owners AND extended warranty companies (who price products based in long term reliability and durability) are almost lock-step with CR ratings. JD ratings are very inconsistent with those of CR and extended warranty companies. JD might be fine for manufacturers, but it isn't necessarily good data for consumers to use in making long-term purchasing decisions. IMO as always. And from one data geek to another... :-)
JD Power obtains data from several sources including the manufacturers themselves. Some manufacturers provide non-customer specific warranty claim data to JD Power. I am not aware of any public JD Power survey for the automobile industry (opposite of CR).

JD Power does collect information directly from the customer... for example when you receive a call from "Honda" after you buy a vehicle or have one repaired that is usually JD Power calling... not Honda. The data was provided by Honda to JD Power and they follow up on customer satisfaction surveys. The same can be said for most manufacturers.

It is very easy to "stuff" a CR survey... and to be honest that may actually be the majority of the survey results. I don't know of any way you could "stuff" a JD Power survey since it's not a public survey. The customer could give inaccurate info... but that is going to happen.

As far as JD Power only tracking reliability for 3 years... that is what the survey is designed to do. JD Power doesn't undertake these surveys for the public... the customers are the auto manufacturers. Reliability data beyond 3 model years is over very little use other than for the marketing people (they use state registration information to track that data).

I am not saying the CR survey is useless. From a manufacturer perspective the monthly reviews by CR mean a whole lot more than the survey, but every manufacturer would obviously prefer to do well on the survey... but at the same time they realize that it's more about brand perception than anything else and there are huge margins of error in that survey.

I was thinking about this last night... I used the Maytag / Hotpoint as an example when I should have used Chevy / GMC trucks as a better example. For many decades the two trucks were exactly the same other than the badges (and some minor seat trim, etc.). Today GM has attempted to slightly widen the gap between the two trucks, but they probably still share over 95% of the same parts. But even when the two trucks were essentially identical (built on the same assembly line, by the same people, with the same parts, intermixed, etc.) they got significantly different results in the CR annual survey. People had the perception that a GMC truck was 'tougher' or had a 'bigger frame' but the Chevy rode 'smoother'. It's just how people work.

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post #46 of 78 (permalink) Old 11-28-2012, 07:50 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Consumer Reports Downgrade: Fuel System Reliability

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Originally Posted by csimo View Post
I have filled out and returned many Consumer Reports annual surveys. I had a problem with a dishwasher once and got mad at the company that made it (shall remain nameless) so when the survey asked me if I bought a new dishwasher in the last year I answered YES for many years. I gave the brand name I was mad at and filled in the little circles saying I've had nothing but problems with it. It was my way of getting even with that company and my results were included in their reliability ratings... but of course I had provided inaccurate data.
I'm not going to get into the appropriateness of this, as it is an element of human nature and somewhat immaterial; except to say that I suspect most people fill out the surveys fairly honestly, realizing that they are beneficiaries of good data if others do the same with respect to products they are considering buying. However, I would think that the tendecy to overstate problems on the part of some people completing the survey would exist equally for all products and, again, CR compares against average negative reports for all cars in that given year in a given category. So it would seem to likely even out.

To beat a dead horse: Nobody seems to have had a concern about the very positive reliability reviews of the Ridgeline garnered from owner surveys for many years. In fact, the Ridgeline is still, even with this one area of reliability problem that has come up, rated best in its class (compact pickup trucks). CR rates it a 79 (out of 100) based on, "results from more than 50 tests and evaluations" (same as for all cars they test).

In the area of reliability, which appears to be totally based on user reviews, the Ridgeline for 2012 has Much Better than Average ratings in every category except this one. However, since 2006, the Ridgeline has NEVER had a reliability rating from owners in any category that was either Worse than Average or Much Worse than Average, except for 2012 in this one area of concern.

It's hard for me to imagine that people with a car like the Ridgeline, that is so well put together, would hammer it over a fuel cap warning issue so badly that it comes up Much Worse than Average. That was my reason for the post. To try to find out why.

So far, one owner (Onital) reported a major problem he had that could be the issue, if it has occured repeatedly. That seems possible given the statistical chances that a 2012 owner who had the problem was reading this thread and responded. Maybe that is it and they had some bad fuel injectors that went out in a bunch of Ridgelines. In any case, hopefully whatever the problem was has been addressed.
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post #47 of 78 (permalink) Old 11-28-2012, 08:39 AM
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Re: Consumer Reports Downgrade: Fuel System Reliability

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Originally Posted by WNY PAT View Post
I think he's saying that at certain companies, the bosses handed out lots of CR surveys and asked the employees to fill them out with only positive feedback.
Joe didn't respond to this, so I'll correct this for him: he said that he had been a subscriber to CR, and separately said that he had handed out surveys, but did NOT say that the surveys were for CR.
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post #48 of 78 (permalink) Old 11-28-2012, 08:44 AM
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Re: Consumer Reports Downgrade: Fuel System Reliability

I too find it hard to believe also, that anyone would intentionally waste time filling out a CR survey if they did not want to provide as accurate data as possible. It's really kind of a hassle. But I have no doubt it happens for one reason or another.

But based on years of looking at CR reliability charts for autos against long term reviews from various sources, Recall Notices, etc. I have found very few surprises. You will see when Fords improved, Toyota got worse, etc., etc., and IMO serves most consumers looking to see trends of various makes over the years. I am sure it's not perfect, but nothing else seems to do that as well.



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post #49 of 78 (permalink) Old 11-28-2012, 09:27 AM
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Re: Consumer Reports Downgrade: Fuel System Reliability

I received a JD Power survey in the mail after purchasing my RL, with a self-addressed stamped envelope to return it in. Similar but not as comprehensive as a CR survey. Maritz also sent me a survey, which I also completed, and this one was more comprehensive than either CR or JD Powers. Wonder who they sell their data to??


Quote:
Originally Posted by csimo View Post
JD Power obtains data from several sources including the manufacturers themselves. Some manufacturers provide non-customer specific warranty claim data to JD Power. I am not aware of any public JD Power survey for the automobile industry (opposite of CR).

JD Power does collect information directly from the customer... for example when you receive a call from "Honda" after you buy a vehicle or have one repaired that is usually JD Power calling... not Honda. The data was provided by Honda to JD Power and they follow up on customer satisfaction surveys. The same can be said for most manufacturers.

It is very easy to "stuff" a CR survey... and to be honest that may actually be the majority of the survey results. I don't know of any way you could "stuff" a JD Power survey since it's not a public survey. The customer could give inaccurate info... but that is going to happen.

As far as JD Power only tracking reliability for 3 years... that is what the survey is designed to do. JD Power doesn't undertake these surveys for the public... the customers are the auto manufacturers. Reliability data beyond 3 model years is over very little use other than for the marketing people (they use state registration information to track that data).

I am not saying the CR survey is useless. From a manufacturer perspective the monthly reviews by CR mean a whole lot more than the survey, but every manufacturer would obviously prefer to do well on the survey... but at the same time they realize that it's more about brand perception than anything else and there are huge margins of error in that survey.

I was thinking about this last night... I used the Maytag / Hotpoint as an example when I should have used Chevy / GMC trucks as a better example. For many decades the two trucks were exactly the same other than the badges (and some minor seat trim, etc.). Today GM has attempted to slightly widen the gap between the two trucks, but they probably still share over 95% of the same parts. But even when the two trucks were essentially identical (built on the same assembly line, by the same people, with the same parts, intermixed, etc.) they got significantly different results in the CR annual survey. People had the perception that a GMC truck was 'tougher' or had a 'bigger frame' but the Chevy rode 'smoother'. It's just how people work.

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post #50 of 78 (permalink) Old 11-28-2012, 10:39 PM
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Re: Consumer Reports Downgrade: Fuel System Reliability

For what it's worth.

I bought my 2012 RTL in November 2011. When I joined the ROC last year and posted pictures of my new truck, other members said that mine was the first reported 2012 on the forum. The dealer said that mine was the first 2012 they had delivered to a customer.

After one year, I have put 12000 miles on it. The fuel consumption has been slightly better than the Honda-published estimates. I had one instance of the "Check Fuel Cap" warning a few weeks ago. I removed the fuel cap and re-tightened it. The warning cleared the next time I started the truck.

I'm very happy with my Ridgeline so far and I have seen no other evidence of any problems related to the fuel system.

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