Going "Active"

There's a guy I work with that swears by the front channel (stage) plus sub only setup. And that begs the question.

Has anyone here with front components gone "active"? I and others here have head units that support this setup natively. Just wondering what the advantages and drawbacks were. (Other than losing the rear channel.)

Does anyone here recommend it, or run their setups that way?

Or just have an opinion one way or another.

By "active" do you mean active crossovers instead of passive? If so - count me in that club.

My (old) install thread (http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6783) tells my install story.

But I prefer active over passive for the following reasons:

1. Complete control over crossover points, slope, and balance between drivers just by turning knobs or changing a few things. Passive crossovers frequently use cheap components and are not adjustable.
2. Freedom to choose drivers I like. I favor drivers without inflated reputations.
3. Potentially greater freedom to mount drivers and crossovers.

Disadvantages are:

1. Probably will cost more. You need the active crossover and at least two more channels of amplification.
2. More cabling, especially interconnects, between the crossover and amplifiers.
3. Too much flexibility for some people (not me). You need to understand what effect 24db/octave has vs. 12 db/octave (etc.).

There are many fine component systems so I'm not knocking them at all.

Ahh, cool. That is precisely what I'm on about. Why should I buy components with a crossover when I can use the built in active crossover in my head unit and buy separate mid driver and tweeter. Saving a bit of money in the process.

There is a little switch on the side of my HU that changes the RCA output configuration from front/rear/sub to high/mid/low. The control interface then reflects this change using internal active crossovers. Or so I gather.

This is the HU I'm talking about. http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/v3/pg/product/details/0,,2076_310069882_291159496,00.html

So I guess I wouldn’t need additional external crossovers?

These are some of the products I've read about..

Mid:

http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/shop/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=157
or
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=78

Tweeter:

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1466

Any thoughts.

I think your driver choices are good although I don't know anything about the first one.

That tweeter should be very good. A good start for a crossover freqency is 2x the free air resonance (1170 hz) - so start with 2500 Hz.

I quickly looked at your headunit link. It doesn't look to me like it can set it's high pass that high. But I may be missing something.

For an active 3 way - a typical crossover set up might be:

Low pass @ 80 hz for the sub

High pass @ 80 Hz + low pass @ 2500 hz for the midwoofer ("bandpass" setup)

High pass @ 2500 Hz for th tweeter

An active system offers alot of flexibility in adjustment but is a chore to tune properly. One common problem is that their is no general setting because source material varies. Now brings in equalization which if accompanied by multiple presets will help. The matching of drivers is very critical for balanced sound mostly in three way setups. One thing to remember with automotive components is the difference in price in the same line comes from the crossover.

Setup is THE issue with active.

I don't think matching drivers is all that difficult if you choose well-behaved (more flat than not) drivers. One of the reasons I like buying drivers from Madisound, Parts Express, etc. is that they usually supply far more complete specs. Many autosound drivers have minimal data.

I'm not sure what you mean by general settings because of source material changes. That would be true of any crossover. Any component JL or Polk (etc.) with their passive crossover is a compromise.

If you go active, I would do the following to choose crossovers:

1. pick the tweeter high pass starting with the 2X Fs guideline. You can go a bit lower if you use steep slopes but you can't go much lower and preserve power handling.

2. choose the mid-bass high pass between 80 and 100 hz. This xover is the most likely to be changed during tuning depending on the sub's performance in the vehicle.

3. use a sound level meter to help using a test CD. Focus on the levels one octave below a xover frequency through one octave above.

4. use EQ, if desired, last.

5. final adjustments by ear including while on the road, not in the driveway.

By "active" do you mean active crossovers instead of passive? If so - count me in that club.

My (old) install thread (http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6783) tells my install story.



Thanks for posting this hofffam - nice thread. I don't (yet?) have an RL but am in the 'very serious consideration' stage, and I have an Alpine 9815 that I never did end up using in my current vehicle (GMC Safari).

I was thinking of a setup along these lines:
- a stereo pair of Dayton RSS210hf's in the back under the seats, running up to ~250-300. (using the 8's means they can be front-firing, from what I can tell about available space)
- no use of rear door location
- dedicated mid in front door covering ~300-5k (TB W4-1337 maybe?)
- neo tweet 5k+ in either stock location or sails

Mid/tweet would use the built-in HU amps, external amp for the subs.

So, the questions are
a) will the rear bass drivers blend OK with the front stage?
b) is there a big sacrifice made by eliminating the rear door location. (rear seats will basically never be used by humans, and the dog doesn't seem to care much about sound quality)

Obviously a newbie to the RL world, and far more of a home audio guy than a car audio guy, so thanks for any feedback or opinions.

Setup is THE issue with active.

I don't think matching drivers is all that difficult if you choose well-behaved (more flat than not) drivers. One of the reasons I like buying drivers from Madisound, Parts Express, etc. is that they usually supply far more complete specs. Many autosound drivers have minimal data.

I'm not sure what you mean by general settings because of source material changes. That would be true of any crossover. Any component JL or Polk (etc.) with their passive crossover is a compromise.

If you go active, I would do the following to choose crossovers:

1. pick the tweeter high pass starting with the 2X Fs guideline. You can go a bit lower if you use steep slopes but you can't go much lower and preserve power handling.

2. choose the mid-bass high pass between 80 and 100 hz. This xover is the most likely to be changed during tuning depending on the sub's performance in the vehicle.

3. use a sound level meter to help using a test CD. Focus on the levels one octave below a xover frequency through one octave above.

4. use EQ, if desired, last.

5. final adjustments by ear including while on the road, not in the driveway.If you truly enjoy tuning I recommend this tool http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.display/product_id/3599/index.cfm?CFID=378072&CFTOKEN=8 I use it frequently and it shows how accurate your crossover really is.

Thanks for posting this hofffam - nice thread. I don't (yet?) have an RL but am in the 'very serious consideration' stage, and I have an Alpine 9815 that I never did end up using in my current vehicle (GMC Safari).

I was thinking of a setup along these lines:
- a stereo pair of Dayton RSS210hf's in the back under the seats, running up to ~250-300. (using the 8's means they can be front-firing, from what I can tell about available space)
- no use of rear door location
- dedicated mid in front door covering ~300-5k (TB W4-1337 maybe?)
- neo tweet 5k+ in either stock location or sails

Mid/tweet would use the built-in HU amps, external amp for the subs.

So, the questions are
a) will the rear bass drivers blend OK with the front stage?
b) is there a big sacrifice made by eliminating the rear door location. (rear seats will basically never be used by humans, and the dog doesn't seem to care much about sound quality)

Obviously a newbie to the RL world, and far more of a home audio guy than a car audio guy, so thanks for any feedback or opinions.


Just my thoughts.....

That TB driver is very interesting but I wouldn't use a 4 in. in the door. It requires a relatively high xover (your proposed 300 is probably a good one). I think you'll get poor matching with the subs. I still believe that it should not be obvious where the subs are and if you rely on them to play up to 300 hz you will definitely localize sound from the rear.

I also prefer lower xovers for the tweeter. Most mids become directional above 2000 hz and you might have a gap between the mid and tweeter.

I also think using the headunit amp may be disappointing overall. That TB driver could be VERY revealing and might expose the quality of the headunit "chip" amps.

For Mr. Big - that's an interesting device. But I don't actually enjoy the tuning part. After a while I get tired and just want to listen to something!

One thing about xovers - I like digital xovers or Audiocontrol units because they don't use potentiometers to set the frequency.

Wow. Great information. So good in fact that I'm thinking my ears may not be up to the challenge.

BTW. Pioneer DEH880 xover stats for active mode (networked) stated in the manual are as follows

Low LPF: 25—31.5—40—50—63—80—100
—125—160—200—250 (Hz)

Mid HPF: 25—31.5—40—50—63—80—100
—125—160—200—250 (Hz)

Mid LPF: 1.25k—1.6k—2k—2.5k—3.15k—
4k—5k—6.3k—8k—10k—12.5k (Hz)

HighHPF: 1.25k—1.6k—2k—2.5k—3.15k—
4k—5k—6.3k—8k—10k—12.5k (Hz)

I guess that means it's capable. The question remains am I willing to learn enough to tune it... Hmm, not sure I am. ...As the baby cries in the background. Not really, but you know what I mean :).

Capable, as long as you're not too much of a perfectionist. That's good adjustability for a HU, but it does not compare to an external processor. Will you need more than this? Who knows. Only your ears know for sure.

One advantage of a passive system from a high quality vendor is that the drivers are matched, and the crossovers are designed for the drivers to work as a system. From that point it becomes a matter of matching it to your vehicle.

I have the capability in my system to go active at any time, but I have chosen to stay passive because I like the way it sounds.

Wow. Great information. So good in fact that I'm thinking my ears may not be up to the challenge.

BTW. Pioneer DEH880 xover stats for active mode (networked) stated in the manual are as follows

Low LPF: 25—31.5—40—50—63—80—100
—125—160—200—250 (Hz)

Mid HPF: 25—31.5—40—50—63—80—100
—125—160—200—250 (Hz)

Mid LPF: 1.25k—1.6k—2k—2.5k—3.15k—
4k—5k—6.3k—8k—10k—12.5k (Hz)

HighHPF: 1.25k—1.6k—2k—2.5k—3.15k—
4k—5k—6.3k—8k—10k—12.5k (Hz)

I guess that means it's capable. The question remains am I willing to learn enough to tune it... Hmm, not sure I am. ...As the baby cries in the background. Not really, but you know what I mean :).

Looks like that headunit has the xover choices you would want. The remaining question is what are the xover slopes? I use 24 db/octave because I prefer less driver overlap and it protects the tweeter better.

One advantage of a passive system from a high quality vendor is that the drivers are matched, and the crossovers are designed for the drivers to work as a system. From that point it becomes a matter of matching it to your vehicle.

Absolutely correct. As long as it is a well designed and quality built component set. And, as long as the distance between the components is within reason and on the same plane. For example, my Morel 3 ways are passive at the moment, but I might go active between the mid and mid-bass, as the mid bass is too far away from the tweeter/mid range drivers. At the moment, I have the mid bass bi-amped through the passive crossover, but I think going true active might be a better solution. I'm getting to the point where I might as well keep all the panels off until I get the system tweaked properly. Perfection has its price. I've been at this for quite some time. Factor into this that my system is set up for surround sound and things really get messed up. The factory location of the rear speakers suck.

Anyway, got a little off topic.

Of course Mugen1 has a fantastic set of drivers integrated into his A-pillars!

I'd probably go passive between those drivers too. :)

Of course Mugen1 has a fantastic set of drivers integrated into his A-pillars!

His HU is no slouch, either.

Wow. Great information. So good in fact that I'm thinking my ears may not be up to the challenge.

BTW. Pioneer DEH880 xover stats for active mode (networked) stated in the manual are as follows


So what does the manual say as far as crossover slope is concerned? Any other features such as time alignment or phase controls?

It's amazing what features they build into decks these days.

His HU is no slouch, either.

Hey, guys...... ease up. Don't want to sound like I'm braggin'. :o

I will never claim to have the best sounding system in a Ridgeline. Someone else here has that distinction already......;)

To answer the slope and other questions, here area the available adjustments:

Low LPF: –36— –30—–24— –18— –12 (dB/
oct.)
Mid HPF: –24— –18— –12— –6—Pass (0)
(dB/oct.)
Mid LPF: –24— –18— –12—–6—Pass (0)
(dB/oct.)
HighHPF: –24—–18— –12—–6 (dB/oct.)

All speakers can be phase switched, heres a little something from the manual"
"When the cross-over point value for filters on
both sides is set to –12 dB/oct., the phase is
reversed 180 degrees at the filter cut-off frequency.
In this case, reversing the phase assures
improved sound continuity."

Time alignment can be be done manually in inches or cm, or can be setup for you using the included microphone and thier test program.

To be quite honest though, with all that said. I find myself back peddling rather quickly from all this. :o Most of the above is written in french if you catch my drift.

Most of the above is written in french if you catch my drift.

Mugen1 can help with that. :D

Mugen1 can help with that. :D

No. I might be from Canada, but I failed French in high school. Here in the West Coast, there is no need or desire to learn our country's second language, French. Asian languages are more useful in our part of the country.