Yet another question... Where to place rear tweeters?

Does anyone run components in the rears? The sail panel for the rear is right at your ear for passengers. Am I making a mistake putting components back there?

Sitting in the back I definitely hear the tweeter and woofer separately and it sounds like @ss.

I am running the Polk MMC6500s pushed by 75w RMS from Alpine.

I am rediculously disappointed at this point, but I know with some help from the pros here I can get this better. Should I move the tweeter down by the woofer?

To possibly help describe this situation more, there doesn't sound like there is a blend, some real highs and a lot of muddy vocals and lows from the woofer.

Look to the left of the water bottle. :)

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e110/Bose901SeriesIII/100_0028-1.jpg

Look to the left of the water bottle. :)


Right on, thanks for the help. I'll try 'em there.

For all of you experts in staging and slope talk and tweaking systems, what or where would you suggest for taking the next step to educate myself more on this?

SQ and simply the highest quality in all things is very important to me and I just haven't had the time or the $ to commit the pursuit of the next level in ultimate SQ for both home and the RL, but I'm ready now. Mostly I've relied on internet reviews and high price tags to determine what I need, but I know there is so much more to be gained. Just buying the expensive stuff just leaves me disappointed right now.

I would appreciate any advice to get started. For anyone suggesting just getting a professional, thank you but no thank you, I have not yet found something I cannot learn to do myself... except for invasive surgery; maybe I'm just not committed enough.

Relying on price to choose components is silly. Many autosound components are ridiculously priced for the "show" crowd.

I'm not sure why you are so concerned about the sound in the rear. Do you sit back there? Do you have passengers who care and want to listen to the music you choose when you're driving?

I'm not trying to be a smartass. When I have passengers in the RL they want to talk, not listen to Branford Marsalis or blues.

I'm not happy with the location of the rear speakers. I have a surround sound setup in my RL and the rears sound sub par because of the location. I am thinking of tweeters in the sails of the rear doors and deleting the mids in the stock location. Or tweeter/mid pods in the c pillars (similar to the a-pillar pods I have up front). I might go really wild and look into ribbon tweets in the head liner :eek:

I'll have to test these things out before going all out - experimentation. Right now, single-point source in the stock location is not working out. Remember these are for surround sound and not rear fill in a traditional stereo setup.

Also, the system is for me and nobody else. The passengers can walk if they don't like the sound. :D :D

The difference between setting up rear channels for 5.1 surround sound and for stereo (or Dolby Digital 2.0) is night and day. The best setup for one can be the worst setup for the other.

With 5.1, you want to hear the rear surrounds only when the program information dictates it. They create space and depth because the input is encoded to do just that. The surround speakers should be at least at ear level and audible.

With a rear fill setup, you just want to add a little volume in the back without affecting the stereo front stage. Set up correctly, you should just barely hear the rears from the front seats. The rear fill can also come in handy if you have a dual zone system or a nav with audio override.

For 5.1, get the whole component speaker system up at ear level if you can. For rear fill, keep them low and as close together as you can, and match the levels carefully to optimize your front stage.

Jayhawker,

There are good books, and some good forums, but the car audio industry is rife with people who don't give a crap about sound, only volume. Kids with thousands of dollars to burn to brag that they kit 134dB on the meter. Those that care about quality sound are in the minority, probably the significant minority.

I'm an electrical engineer. I come from a pro sound background, where volume and sound quality are of equal importance. In fact, the holy grail is to set up a system that is so crisp and clean you don't even know or care how loud it really is. The sound just seems to be coming from the heavens.

There are some very knowledgeable people on this forum. Of all of the forums, the best ones I've found that cater to mobile sound quality are elitecaraudio.com and diymobileaudio.com, but you could quickly become overwhelmed. Stick with it. Study before asking questions. Run your questions by us here, I'm sure we can help. Better here than the lion's den that those forums can become.

Good luck and enjoy the ride.

BTW, you have one heck of a basketball team this year. Just be ready for UMass in your house next year. We will be coming in there ready to jam.

Shovelhd, thanks for the information. I will get into those forums and see what I can pick up. I know I will get this set up for my liking. I have my undergrad in telecomm so I'm not unfamiliar with the basics of electronics, but my career has been in business so the days of the bread board and oscilloscope is long gone. I'll get where I need to be to satisfy my expectations.

Hofffam, I truly respect your experience and insight, I was hoping you would give me your opinion. I want to echo what you had to say and maybe I wasn't clear, just paying higher $s doesn't mean anything thus the reason I want to educate myself on what is really important and how to achieve real results.

I did move the tweeters forward and there is a big difference. It really does sound great. A key point to this is I am still waiting for the single 10" subthump box to finish the sound.

I did some lurking around http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/

Lots of good advise on eveything from amps to speakers, and as mentioned before high dollar doesnt make it good

A key point to this is I am still waiting for the single 10" subthump box to finish the sound.

This will make a HUGE difference to get the lows into the sound. What sub did you end up getting?

This will make a HUGE difference to get the lows into the sound. What sub did you end up getting?
I went with the Polk Momo 4-ohm DVC. I will run the alpine M450 @ 2-ohm for 400w. As with everything in this project, its been a constant upgrade/improvement. I might find this isn't what I am wanting, but for my sanity, I hope it is what I expect it to be.

The difference between setting up rear channels for 5.1 surround sound and for stereo (or Dolby Digital 2.0) is night and day. The best setup for one can be the worst setup for the other.


You are saying all that for the benefit of the others, right?

I already know that stuff........ not much more, but enough ;)

Surround sound is still new to a lot of people in the car audio realm. Some long time experts of car audio say there is no place for it. In our trucks, it is going to be a big challenge. Anyway.............

You are saying all that for the benefit of the others, right?

Absolutely.

:)

The picture I posted is a good position for stereo but would suck bigtime if you are doing a 5.1 setup. The reason that I put tweets in the back seat are 1) I had them and 2) I do sit back there from time to time. (Yes I let my wife drive sometimes on long trips.) The lack of sound quality back there was absolutely killing me. The combined sound of the rear door drivers along with the sub under the seat made the rear seating position sound quality akin to having water in your ears.

If I were going to suggest a mounting position for rear channels for a 5.1 setup, I would consider a 4" coaxial driver instead of a component setup and mount the drivers in custom pods that would fit between the rear headrests and the C pillar of the truck or consider putting the rear surrounds directly into the rear headrests ala' the old Pontiac Fiero headrests but I would only mount a mono channel vs. the stereo setup that they used to use. I would also put bass shakers under every seat to create an enhanced bass sensation.

Shovelhd, thanks for the information. I will get into those forums and see what I can pick up. I know I will get this set up for my liking. I have my undergrad in telecomm so I'm not unfamiliar with the basics of electronics, but my career has been in business so the days of the bread board and oscilloscope is long gone. I'll get where I need to be to satisfy my expectations.

Hofffam, I truly respect your experience and insight, I was hoping you would give me your opinion. I want to echo what you had to say and maybe I wasn't clear, just paying higher $s doesn't mean anything thus the reason I want to educate myself on what is really important and how to achieve real results.

I did move the tweeters forward and there is a big difference. It really does sound great. A key point to this is I am still waiting for the single 10" subthump box to finish the sound.

Hey Jhawker - thanks for the kind words....there is plenty of very good and useful advice here. My priorities are of course a bit different than some of the others here. So you get to read some contrasting ideas.

I will say that I have occasionally considered investing time and energy on "soundstage" and rear fill. One of the things I have heard that worked well in some OEM systems is a front center speaker - usually in the dash and forward. It fills the chasm between left/right. Rear fill in my view really needs time delay to make it better than "sound from the rear."

I'll suggest to you that if you expand your search to places like Madisound and Parts Express you can find some interesting speaker drivers that could be useful. There are several 1 1/2 to 3 inch "full range" drivers available from companies like Aurasound and Tang Band that fit in uncoventional places. I'm not convinced you need wide, flat frequency response for rear fill.

This install/upgrade has been a learning experience. I guess I have just never experienced the soundstage as referenced by the audio elite. This whole time I have been approaching this as the music is to not seem like it is coming from one specific location. Forgive my ignorance as I have not seriously invested the time to really study car audio. I have just always preferred a rich warm sound that feels like it is all around you, not coming from the center in front of you.

I've been digging into these forums and I am blown away. A lot of people are of the opinion that you shouldn't even use rear speakers. I'm not a sheep and won't do something I dislike just because the audiophile feels that is the way it should be, but I would certainly like to hear how that sounds. Does it sound like you're at a concert with it all set in front of you?

This is all so interesting and also frustrating because its not like you can go to a local store and sample different set-ups. I guess my point is how are you to know you don't like caviar until you try caviar? I could be missing out on the greatest car audio experience of my life while at the same time investing a lot of $s into the opposite direction. Forgive my pondering, I am losing the direction here...

If there's anyone in Fort Collins, CO reading this and has this perfected soundstage, I would love to hear it. Short of that, I'm not sure where to go from here without some listening experience. I guess I freeze the changes, keep what I have and begin the pursuit for listening experience.

Is there not a holy grail of car audio like Ben Hogan's book on golf? Like Shovelhd said, a lot of what's out there could be geared towards volume, I want the highest sound quality I can afford and I can't get there without knowing the terminology and philosophy of audio.

This install/upgrade has been a learning experience. I guess I have just never experienced the soundstage as referenced by the audio elite. This whole time I have been approaching this as the music is to not seem like it is coming from one specific location. Forgive my ignorance as I have not seriously invested the time to really study car audio. I have just always preferred a rich warm sound that feels like it is all around you, not coming from the center in front of you.

I've been digging into these forums and I am blown away. A lot of people are of the opinion that you shouldn't even use rear speakers. I'm not a sheep and won't do something I dislike just because the audiophile feels that is the way it should be, but I would certainly like to hear how that sounds. Does it sound like you're at a concert with it all set in front of you?

This is all so interesting and also frustrating because its not like you can go to a local store and sample different set-ups. I guess my point is how are you to know you don't like caviar until you try caviar? I could be missing out on the greatest car audio experience of my life while at the same time investing a lot of $s into the opposite direction. Forgive my pondering, I am losing the direction here...

If there's anyone in Fort Collins, CO reading this and has this perfected soundstage, I would love to hear it. Short of that, I'm not sure where to go from here without some listening experience. I guess I freeze the changes, keep what I have and begin the pursuit for listening experience.

Is there not a holy grail of car audio like Ben Hogan's book on golf? Like Shovelhd said, a lot of what's out there could be geared towards volume, I want the highest sound quality I can afford and I can't get there without knowing the terminology and philosophy of audio.

Many people here have been into audio and car audio for a long time. The differences in approaches you see are due to people's needs and the type of system build.

The ideal situation is a prominent front stage, where most of the sound is in front and high (dash on up). Imaging must be well defined. Imaging is where the instruments are represented in their original placement across the soundstage as recorded. Tonal balance is where all the frequencies are represented without any being overpowering or lacking. Dynamics are also important (low volume in music to the very loudest passages) - transient response (the ability of speakers to accurately reproduce sudden attacks of sound without breaking up). Ambience is the sound that envelops you. This is supposed to be a natural reflective sound, but in a vehicle, it can be missing, therefore there needs to be rear fill. All this and more.........

Add to this trying to keep the noise floor to a minimum - a car is not the most hospitable place for delicate electronics. Humidity, vibration, temprature, electrical interference from other devices, materials used in cars (reflective and absorptive properties - glass being the most difficult to work with), physical limitations of the vehicle - shape and size, etc.

Start with visiting a reputable home audio showroom. Just don't let them know you are getting into car audio..... some of them are pretty snobby and cannot imagine the possibility of a great sounding system in a car, of all places. Next would be to attend a car audio sound competition - one that has a sound quality section. Those SPL competitions are not what you will be interested in. See if any of them will let you listen to their system. Be aware that a lot of the contestants are there to show off there installs - visual and not about sound.

Once you know what is possible and what you like, the rest will fall into place. One thing is for sure, there is no shortcut. You are definitely on the right track - you enjoy listening critically. Just be patient and do as much research as possible. If you have a decent home audio system, there are some recordings out there that will have samples of what each of the terms I listed above are all about.

I use test cd's that are used in car audio competitions (sound quality section) and Focal demo CD's. You can get these recordings at reputable high end car audio dealers. If you have surround sound, I suggest Dr. Cheskey's test DVD. It's a compilation of various recordings that display specific aspects of sound reproduction. I think he has one for conventional stereo as well.

I also listen to other recordings that are known to be well produced. Perhaps our ROC members can suggest a few recordings and why they are their favourites for testing the performance of their system.

Mugen, thank you for your help! Can you make any suggestions on software/hardware that I could use to look at freq. response, etc.? I would like to supplement the reading with some hands-on work (the fun part). I know I can't afford the high-end stuff, but there should probably be something out there that would at least get me started in actually seeing what I'm reading. Does that make sense?

Mugen, thank you for your help! Can you make any suggestions on software/hardware that I could use to look at freq. response, etc.? I would like to supplement the reading with some hands-on work (the fun part). I know I can't afford the high-end stuff, but there should probably be something out there that would at least get me started in actually seeing what I'm reading. Does that make sense?

Like someone else mentioned earlier, high end stuff does not automatically result in success. It's mostly system design and install that makes or breaks a system. Time tweaking and getting it right.

Unless you are competing in sound quality events where the RTA score means some points, you do not need to concern yourself with this aspect of it. Besides, you need to have access to an RTA (Real Time Analyzer), a microphone and your system needs some kind of equalization capabilities - graphic (fixed bands) or parametric (selectable frequency and width of control - the "Q"). If you are on a budget, I would start with a good deck (head unit).

Anyway, I'm off to last minute Christmas shopping. Hofffam, shovelhd, and others will add their contributions...... bet they're off shopping, too. I'm on the west coast so it's still morning.

I'm actually biding time until the UMass game tonight. I did my chores, and rebuilt the snowblower this morning, so I'm done.

Jayhawker, you can get PC-based RTA software and a decent calibrated microphone for a couple hundred bucks, but like Mugen says, if your HU doesn't give you the adjustability, then it's worthless. It will just give you the bad news with no solution. I bought my RTA years ago and it's paid for itself many times over as I used it in my business.

Do you have a real mobile audio shop in your town? Not a big box store annex, a real standalone store. Most of these guys love to talk about their craft. They can show you around and maybe even demo an in-car installation with good imaging. Once you hear it, you'll never forget it. Then I would tell them that you're interested in making some investments in your vehicle system, including having them tune the final result. Paying a tuner is a much better investment than buying an RTA that you'll use once or twice.

On the topic of rear fill, I am using a 4 channel amp at 70w x 4 4ohm. Might I be better to bridge the amp to the two front channels and use NAVI headunit power for the rear as fill?

Jeff

It depends on what speakers you have up front. Can they handle 140W?

On the topic of rear fill, I am using a 4 channel amp at 70w x 4 4ohm. Might I be better to bridge the amp to the two front channels and use NAVI headunit power for the rear as fill?

JeffWhy,just use the amp as a 4 channel and attenuate the rear via the gains or fader. One of the best and cheapest route is to use an Audiocontrol EQS. If your budget allows you can move up in the Audiocontrol line also. http://mobileaudiocontrol.com/product.asp?Product_Id=14160&d_Id=5248&l1=5248&l2=

I have the Polk 6500 components up front. I think they can handle 140w. I am using a Rockford 3Sixty.1 processor so I can just use the gains that way. Just thought having 140w up front might be nice.

Jeff

It won't be nice if it blows your speakers. What are they rated for?

It won't be nice if it blows your speakers. What are they rated for?
Actually you're right. The Polk db6500s are rated at 10-100 watts with 300 peak. The amp bridged is rated at 200 watts into 4ohms so probably too risky!

Jeff

Too much power is better than too little. Probably safer for your tweeters.

But how loud do you listen?

One of the biggest risks with high power is too much excursion on the woofers. If the speakers have a proper high pass on them they will likely be safe. The power rating of most car speakers is based on full range.

Too much power is better than too little.

I agree. As long as you don't crank it all the way up, you should be fine. I have many sets of home speakers that will only take about 60 real watts of peak power and run them with an amp that has 110 real watts per channel of power. I also have a set of DIY speakers that I estimate will handle about 450 watts per channel. (The crossover is at 4300 hz so the tweeters get minimal power.) They have a 98.5 dB efficiency rating. I sometimes run these speakers with a 8 real watt per channel Sonic Impact T-Amp that is powered by a set of 6 amp motorcycle batteries.

People tend to misunderstand power ratings. An amplifier rated at 75 watts is not truly playing at 75 watts because of the dynamic properties of music. Actually you are probably listening to 1/3 of that power. Most specs are given using test tones and not music. So yes your speakers can be run with that amp safely if all is adjusted correctly. The gains are most critical and where people screw up the most. Underpowering speakers is most dangerous because the amp gets forced into saturation(clipping) causing the speakers stroke to be shortened and not being able to properly cool the voicecoil.

All true, but anytime someone wants to run 2x the rated power of their speakers, they should be warned. It can be done, but the risk of damage is much higher, because, like you say, music is dynamic. That makes it unpredictable, and if a passage has a lot of energy in it for more than a few seconds, 2x the power can be enough to do damage, no matter what the driver is crossed over at.

Underpowering speakers is most dangerous because the amp gets forced into saturation(clipping) causing the speakers stroke to be shortened and not being able to properly cool the voicecoil.

The problem with clipping is a bit different. Clipping causes severe harmonic distortion. Harmonic distortion are harmonics or multiples of a base frequency. When an amplifier clips, it generated a large amount of high frequencies. This threatens tweeters. A tweeter might easily handle 25-50 watts above 3,000 hz. But a 100W amplifier in clipping might generate 50-75W of high frequencies which will overheat a tweeter's very small voice coil.

The problem with clipping is a bit different. Clipping causes severe harmonic distortion. Harmonic distortion are harmonics or multiples of a base frequency. When an amplifier clips, it generated a large amount of high frequencies. This threatens tweeters. A tweeter might easily handle 25-50 watts above 3,000 hz. But a 100W amplifier in clipping might generate 50-75W of high frequencies which will overheat a tweeter's very small voice coil.I know what you mean but I was talking more in terms of larger drivers. I actually watched this on my scope and it's not pretty. The most impressive tweeter I've seen is a Morel Supremo,we hooked up my 600 watt Phoenixgold Ti series amp to it and it took it like a champ.

Does anyone run components in the rears? The sail panel for the rear is right at your ear for passengers. Am I making a mistake putting components back there?

Sitting in the back I definitely hear the tweeter and woofer separately and it sounds like @ss.

I am running the Polk MMC6500s pushed by 75w RMS from Alpine.

I am rediculously disappointed at this point, but I know with some help from the pros here I can get this better. Should I move the tweeter down by the woofer?

To possibly help describe this situation more, there doesn't sound like there is a blend, some real highs and a lot of muddy vocals and lows from the woofer.
If it is an option with those speakers,I would coaxial mount them.

Like someone else mentioned earlier, high end stuff does not automatically result in success. It's mostly system design and install that makes or breaks a system. Time tweaking and getting it right.

Unless you are competing in sound quality events where the RTA score means some points, you do not need to concern yourself with this aspect of it. Besides, you need to have access to an RTA (Real Time Analyzer), a microphone and your system needs some kind of equalization capabilities - graphic (fixed bands) or parametric (selectable frequency and width of control - the "Q"). If you are on a budget, I would start with a good deck (head unit).

Anyway, I'm off to last minute Christmas shopping. Hofffam, shovelhd, and others will add their contributions...... bet they're off shopping, too. I'm on the west coast so it's still morning.
I'm making progress... I changed out my Alpine 9885 HU with the 9887. This adds a ton of functionality including time delay, better eq capabilities, etc. Also, this unit has an add on Imprint package that includes a mic and software which helps people like me. I originally didn't want the 9887 because of the cost of the imprint package but Crutchfield now has a returnable imprint which costs you $50. It arrives today.

The difference just with the 9887 is incredible. I can't wait to see what this imprint package can do. Also, my sub arrives today so by tomorrow I should be wrapped up. Thanks to everyone who has helped me along this long process!

This looks like a very impressive HU.

Looking through the manual, it appears that there is one DSP for the unit. If you choose the multi-eq and use the Imprint software to set it, can you tweak it afterwards with something other than the bass/treble/sub controls?

This looks like a very impressive HU.

Looking through the manual, it appears that there is one DSP for the unit. If you choose the multi-eq and use the Imprint software to set it, can you tweak it afterwards with something other than the bass/treble/sub controls?
No, that is the complaint with the imprint. You only have the basss/treb/sub control. The reviews have also said that the imprint sets the bass too low. I figure for $50 its worth a shot. The reviews have been mixed, some have loved it and think it makes a huge difference, some didn't like the result. I figure I have to see for myself.

I wasn't able to find much info on the Imprint software. Can it draw a response graph? If so, and your graph is simple, maybe it's best to make the graph, shut off the multi-eq, turn on the 5 band parametric eq, and use the info from the graph to set the eq.

I wasn't able to find much info on the Imprint software. Can it draw a response graph? If so, and your graph is simple, maybe it's best to make the graph, shut off the multi-eq, turn on the 5 band parametric eq, and use the info from the graph to set the eq.
For anyone interested, this is the best comprehensive review I have found. http://diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22136

Like I said before, feelings are mixed. I bet I will be one of the happy ones because at this point I'm not able to really fine tune a system the way some can.

There is an interesting post in the later pages that shows how to get into the files and see the settings.

Still waiting on UPS to deliver my sub. I can't stand the waiting! Once it is here I'll start working with the imprint. I will have results tonight and post what it did for me.

Still waiting on UPS to deliver my sub. I can't stand the waiting! Once it is here I'll start working with the imprint. I will have results tonight and post what it did for me.
Well, UPS is not delivering on time and the earliest I will see the sub is Monday. I will still use the imprint tomorrow and see what it does for the system minus the sub. $#@% you Murphy!!!!!

Okay, the update... important to note that I do not have a sub on my system yet, should arrive Monday, but shouldn't have much impact on the review.

I played with the Alpine Imprint KTX-100EQ on the 9887 h/u. I had spent a week in anticipation for it to arrive. As you can see from previous posts I do not have experience in tuning a system and was hoping this was the answer. I upgraded to the 9887 from the 9885 just for this option.

The results... :( It did help with the soundstage, but the sound was "hollow". It had a slight feel of listening in a can. The imprint software allows you to test up to 6 locations, based upon where you want to optimize sound. For example, if you used all 6 locations it suggests, it would sacrifice you for the good of passengers in the back. I played around with different scenarios and ultimately found the best results for me by testing 4 locations, all of which were in the drivers seat.

Like other reviews, the sound was very directed from the speaker. I found myself looking at the speaker because it was so pronounced.

So the verdict... no thanks.

BUT... all is not lost. The 9887 is an AMAZING unit. It offers time correction, act crossover, choice of 7 band eq and par. eq. So, I educated myself on time correction and how to set up the soundstage myself. The result, WOW! I didn't want to get out of the truck tonight. The sound was crystal clear, clearly defined instruments. Before I started this system install I didn't know soundstage from soundgarden. I know I am only a grasshopper, but I will continue to learn and one day snatch the stone. But as far as where it is now from where it was, whoa, I cannot say enough about this h/u.

One thing the imprint did do to help was get me out of the heavy mid-bass sound. I spent time listening to the imprint curve and definitely noticed the improvement in distinct sounds. I began my own tuning somewhat based off of the imprint sound. It gave me a better starting point than where I would have been, as I said earlier, it would have been bass heavy and not nearly as clear.

So to make a short story long, the 9887 is amazing, the imprint, well, it might be for some but not for me.

The next question, my researching SQ indicates I should get the tweeter as close to the driver as possible. The front tweets are currently in the sail panels. It does bother me somewhat that I feel like the tweeter "seperates" the sound maybe more than it should. Any suggestions? Anyone have their tweeters lower on the door or have a custom kickpanel? Would really appreciate any input and experience.

Okay, the update... important to note that I do not have a sub on my system yet, should arrive Monday, but shouldn't have much impact on the review.

I played with the Alpine Imprint KTX-100EQ on the 9887 h/u. I had spent a week in anticipation for it to arrive. As you can see from previous posts I do not have experience in tuning a system and was hoping this was the answer. I upgraded to the 9887 from the 9885 just for this option.

The results... :( It did help with the soundstage, but the sound was "hollow". It had a slight feel of listening in a can. The imprint software allows you to test up to 6 locations, based upon where you want to optimize sound. For example, if you used all 6 locations it suggests, it would sacrifice you for the good of passengers in the back. I played around with different scenarios and ultimately found the best results for me by testing 4 locations, all of which were in the drivers seat.

Like other reviews, the sound was very directed from the speaker. I found myself looking at the speaker because it was so pronounced.

So the verdict... no thanks.

BUT... all is not lost. The 9887 is an AMAZING unit. It offers time correction, act crossover, choice of 7 band eq and par. eq. So, I educated myself on time correction and how to set up the soundstage myself. The result, WOW! I didn't want to get out of the truck tonight. The sound was crystal clear, clearly defined instruments. Before I started this system install I didn't know soundstage from soundgarden. I know I am only a grasshopper, but I will continue to learn and one day snatch the stone. But as far as where it is now from where it was, whoa, I cannot say enough about this h/u.

One thing the imprint did do to help was get me out of the heavy mid-bass sound. I spent time listening to the imprint curve and definitely noticed the improvement in distinct sounds. I began my own tuning somewhat based off of the imprint sound. It gave me a better starting point than where I would have been, as I said earlier, it would have been bass heavy and not nearly as clear.

So to make a short story long, the 9887 is amazing, the imprint, well, it might be for some but not for me.

The next question, my researching SQ indicates I should get the tweeter as close to the driver as possible. The front tweets are currently in the sail panels. It does bother me somewhat that I feel like the tweeter "seperates" the sound maybe more than it should. Any suggestions? Anyone have their tweeters lower on the door or have a custom kickpanel? Would really appreciate any input and experience.

Stay tuned.. In the next few weeks, I will be installing CDT's upstage system (tweeters in the pillars) to raise the stage and will be fabricating kick panels for the 3" mids (front filler). In addition, I have component system which the tweeters will be next to the 6.5" mid/woofer going through a custom grill.

Like you, trying new things to get to sound "Utopia". As long as your having fun at it, that's what really matters.

I think tweeters in the sail panels or in the stock OEM tweeter location is a decent compromise in SQ because it raises the stage up higher. I will be experimenting with the component tweeter in the doors, I let you know what I find.

Thanks for the review on the 9887..

If the sound was "hollow" then IME you had too much delay. Set the time delay to distance and that hollow sound should go away.

I wasn't able to find much info on the Imprint software. Can it draw a response graph? If so, and your graph is simple, maybe it's best to make the graph, shut off the multi-eq, turn on the 5 band parametric eq, and use the info from the graph to set the eq.Don't you need a second piece to get full functionality of Imprint ?

Don't you need a second piece to get full functionality of Imprint ?
There is the 9887 H/U and the KTX-100EQ (imprint software and mic). It doesn't give you much information, simply creates 3 curves and you can load two to the H/U. You can see a before and after on the pc. If you choose to use the MultEQ (imprint curve) you lose the tweaking capabilities, its just the way they set it up. Without the KTX-100EQ you can't operate the MultEQ function on the H/U. Is the KTX the second piece you are referring to?