I hope Honda brings a diesel soon. Read this.... (30-35 MPG!!!)

[Rodek]

http://www.pickuptruck.com/html/news/mahindra/dieselhybridandmore.html

[OhioJeffro]

http://www.thetorquereport.com/2007/06/2009_honda_accord_diesel_will.html

[shovelhd]

That has to be the homeliest pickup truck I've ever seen. It looks like a Jeep that hit a brick wall. It makes my Ridgeline look stylish.

[djeaux]

I kinda agree with shovelhd; this is a definitely homely truck. Looks like the last Taco body had a head-on with a 1975 Chevy LUV. And something tells me this isn't going to be one of those "stink-free" clean-burn diesels, either.

That said, the biggest chuckle I got out of the article was:

Three hundred dealers have signed up to sell the Mahindra pickup, which Mr. Perez thinks will be called the 'Appalachian', after the Appalachian mountain range in the eastern U.S., by the time it goes on sale in mid-2009.

Well, DOH! I thought all the while it was named after the Appalachian River in Punjab!

And another terrific quote:

"I'm really happy about this diesel," says Mr. Perez. "... This is not Chinese junk."

No, but it might very well be Indian junk. (Actually, there's a Mahindra tractor dealer in my town, but their niche isn't built around quality but rather having a product that is cheaper than Kubota...)

[mdwalls]

I can't stand to get behind these light and medium duty diesel vehicles, they stink so bad. If they could clean it up , a 52 mpg Accord would be nice.

[djeaux]

As a semi-unrelated side note, one of my staff members has a VW diesel. It has less than 50K miles on it, is only 3 years old & has had two major engine overhauls & has been in the shop nearly 6 months during her total time of ownership. One of the overhauls -- get this -- was attributed totally to "bad fuel" that she purchased at a major name-brand station.

My questions to the experts here at ROC: Are the "clean burn" diesels extremely sensitive to fuel quality? If so, is this likely to be a problem? Also, are clean burn diesel engines as noisy as the ones we commonly encounter? The last thing I'd want is a Ridgeline that sounded like a Dodge duallie, ticking & rattling.

[shovelhd]

I can't stand to get behind these light and medium duty diesel vehicles, they stink so bad. If they could clean it up , a 52 mpg Accord would be nice.

Around here, biodiesel and reclaimed french fry oil are popular fuels. I was behind an old Mercedes wagon the other day that was burning reclaimed cooking oil. I could smell it half a mile ahead of me, and of course, I wound up right behind it. The stench was unbearable. I had to put my windows down in 20 degree weather for several minutes to clear it out.

[mdwalls]

Just met my wife at Wendy's for lunch ( big spender I know ). Outside was a utility truck changing lights, with the truck running for power. It stunk the whole place up. Made for a nice lunch. :(

[jrcrum]

As a semi-unrelated side note, one of my staff members has a VW diesel. It has less than 50K miles on it, is only 3 years old & has had two major engine overhauls & has been in the shop nearly 6 months during her total time of ownership. One of the overhauls -- get this -- was attributed totally to "bad fuel" that she purchased at a major name-brand station.

My questions to the experts here at ROC: Are the "clean burn" diesels extremely sensitive to fuel quality? If so, is this likely to be a problem? Also, are clean burn diesel engines as noisy as the ones we commonly encounter? The last thing I'd want is a Ridgeline that sounded like a Dodge duallie, ticking & rattling.


As an owner of a pumpe duse vw, i would go out on a limb and guess that she's either using the wrong oil or getting the wrong oil at the dealership(a common occurance) the PD diesel is very sesitive to using the wrong oil even as little as one OCI can damage the engine. i personally have ran bio diesel, dino diesel, and soy bio in my 06 jetta never had a fuel problem. I of course do all my own service on it and use only the vw spec 505.01 oil.

[Twilightzero From EOC]

My questions to the experts here at ROC: Are the "clean burn" diesels extremely sensitive to fuel quality? If so, is this likely to be a problem? Also, are clean burn diesel engines as noisy as the ones we commonly encounter? The last thing I'd want is a Ridgeline that sounded like a Dodge duallie, ticking & rattling.

Clean burn diesels are EXTREMELY sensitive to both fuel quality and contaminants, such as sulfur. That's the main reason we don't have them here yet. Prior to this year, the sulfur rating (for one) in US diesel fuel was way way too high for the clean burn diesels to operate correctly. Now that the ultra low sulfur fuel is mandated and is out, hopefully we should see more soon.

That being said, I'm damn impressed with the payload given the size of the truck. Wonder what the towing capacity is on that thing?

[shovelhd]

With 300 ft-lbs of torque, I'd think something in the 6,000-7,000 pound range if the frame can handle it.

You're right on about the torque output from such a tiny mill. It's incredible.

[csimo]

It's very unfortunate that there's so much anti-diesel bias in North America. Most is based on ignorance.

I'm happy that the rest of the world realizes that diesel is actually cleaner burning and provides approx. 30% better fuel mileage than gasoline engines.

I am 100% convinced that if the average US car buyer were to drive a modern diesel powered car they would prefer them to their gasoline counterparts.

Do you want to reduce or eliminate our dependance on foreign oil? I do. If we were to convert 2/3 of our auto production to diesel power in the next five years (a very reasonable goal) we could nearly cut in half our oil imports. It's hard for most people to grasp what that would mean, but I guarantee the price of oil would drop like a rock, and our economy would benefit beyond imagination.

[STEVE FROST]

The name Appalacian may explain the inbred look of this truck.

[xridgelinex]

It's very unfortunate that there's so much anti-diesel bias in North America. Most is based on ignorance.

I'm happy that the rest of the world realizes that diesel is actually cleaner burning and provides approx. 30% better fuel mileage than gasoline engines.

I am 100% convinced that if the average US car buyer were to drive a modern diesel powered car they would prefer them to their gasoline counterparts.

Do you want to reduce or eliminate our dependance on foreign oil? I do. If we were to convert 2/3 of our auto production to diesel power in the next five years (a very reasonable goal) we could nearly cut in half our oil imports. It's hard for most people to grasp what that would mean, but I guarantee the price of oil would drop like a rock, and our economy would benefit beyond imagination.

Especially with all the rolling fields of the US, how much veggie oil could be grown for alternate biodiesel use...

I have never owned a diesel but I'm a big fan... I just wish there were some choices here in the US that fit my needs/wants in a vehicle...

[Twilightzero From EOC]

Especially with all the rolling fields of the US, how much veggie oil could be grown for alternate biodiesel use...

I have never owned a diesel but I'm a big fan... I just wish there were some choices here in the US that fit my needs/wants in a vehicle...

Right, the problem there is that price of oil goes down, price of almost all food products shoots way up. We're seeing this with corn and ethanol now. Corn stocks are WAAAAY down, almost to emergency levels, already this year and the price is sky high. This in turn is driving up the price of milk, meat, anything that uses corn syrup (most food products these days), etc. There's always a tradeoff...

I'd actually like to see oil algae being developed before oil crops. You can grow them in places that can't sustain farming and they produce an INSANE amount of oil versus the total input of energy needed to grow it and extract it.

[djeaux]

Do you want to reduce or eliminate our dependance on foreign oil? I do. If we were to convert 2/3 of our auto production to diesel power in the next five years (a very reasonable goal) we could nearly cut in half our oil imports. It's hard for most people to grasp what that would mean, but I guarantee the price of oil would drop like a rock, and our economy would benefit beyond imagination.

Please provide references for these assertions. I'm particularly interested in how these projections account for the current economy. If 2/3s of production is redirected but sales drop (as they already are) & the new product is more expensive for consumers with less real income, I simply don't see how the reduction in oil imports could be realistically achieved.

[mdwalls]

I'm not anti diesel, I just know what my nose doesn't like. As for our dependency on foriegn oil, we have more coal and shale than the rag heads have oil. Also nukes and wind power.

[Twilightzero From EOC]

I'm not anti diesel, I just know what my nose doesn't like. As for our dependency on foriegn oil, we have more coal and shale than the rag heads have oil. Also nukes and wind power.

The bad smell from diesels was due to the high amount of comtaminants in the fuel as well as the inefficient way the engines burned the fuel on acceleration. The new high purity/low particulate/low sulfur fuel and high efficiency common rail injection (or several similar others) engines will basically make that problem a thing of the ancient past.

[csimo]

Please provide references for these assertions. I'm particularly interested in how these projections account for the current economy. If 2/3s of production is redirected but sales drop (as they already are) & the new product is more expensive for consumers with less real income, I simply don't see how the reduction in oil imports could be realistically achieved.

The USA can (but doesn't quite) produce 50% of our current crude oil consumption.

Diesel powered vehicles are approx. 30% more fuel efficient. A 30% reduction in consumption will result in reduction of imported.

Our supply and demand system is pretty simple. If demand were to significanly drop the price goes down. This happens on a near daily basis on very small changes in both supply and demand. When a significant factor such as 30% improvement in fuel economy is introduced into the system big changes will result.

Diesel fuel costs less to produce than gasoline. It currently costs more at the pump for a couple of reasons. First there's more tax on diesel fuel, and secondly I believe the oil companies have kept the price of diesel fuel high in attempt to thwart diesel engine development. Historically diesel fuel sold at lower prices at the pump.

When you make gasoline you have one choice... oil. Diesel fuel is much easier to make from a variety of products. The use of vegetable matter for production of diesel fuel is not part of the base plan, but easily could be included. Biodiesel fuel can be transported via pipelines using existing infrastructure... unlike ethanol.

[csimo]

Here's an interesting article from the CEO of a refining company. Guess what? He's sold on diesel!

The only real issue I have with the article is that it uses a 20% number for improved fuel economy... we know that number is really between 25% and 30%.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/DN-diesel_06bus.ART0.State.Edition1.2af09c3.html

[xridgelinex]

I'd actually like to see oil algae being developed before oil crops. You can grow them in places that can't sustain farming and they produce an INSANE amount of oil versus the total input of energy needed to grow it and extract it.

Yeah that would be nice in theory but there is not a high yielding process that is also cost effective... Not yet anyways...

[csimo]

Here's one for you... what vehicle won the prize as the World Green Car?

The answer is: Mercedes-Benz E320 BLUETEC (yes, it's a diesel).

Yes, it exceeds the California SULEV (Super Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle)... a feat that the Ridgeline can't accomplish (or any other Honda except the hybrids).

Imagine that... a dirty, smelly, diesel engine that meets the SULEV standards! It must be slow too since it's a diesel... not really... 0 - 60 MPH at 6.6 seconds would leave our Ridgeline's in the dust (and it gets 37 MPG on the highway).

[ChrisM]

Please provide references for these assertions.

Were you the guy who reviewed the submission to Wikipedia? He said the same exact thing!

PS. This joker lives in my neck of the woods. (Check out his license plate.) He claims he hasn't used anything but McDonalds french fry grease to run his Jetta in over a year. You can smell his car from a mile away. Just think what his clothes smell like when he gets to work.

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m69/HondaRidgeline/Misc/opecwho.jpg

I had to pop out the memory card from my cell phone to retrieve this picture so I thought I would include a few others that I have taken in my travels. Some of these vehicles may or may not get better mileage than the Jetta.

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m69/HondaRidgeline/Misc/batmobile.jpg

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m69/HondaRidgeline/Misc/bigtruck.jpg

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m69/HondaRidgeline/Misc/boat.jpg

[OhioJeffro]

If anyone wanted trully low emissions, I'd go with this one:

Zero-Emissions Honda (http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/)

And yes, that's a Honda not a POS Mercedes... :eek:

(Not that I could afford either one, anyway)

[csimo]

If anyone wanted trully low emissions, I'd go with this one:

Zero-Emissions Honda (http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/)

And yes, that's a Honda not a POS Mercedes... :eek:

(Not that I could afford either one, anyway)

I'd love to get excited over fuel cells, but right now the technology doesn't exist.

The FCX Clarity is an interesting experiment, but it's not practical at this time.

It costs Honda approx. $10,000,000 to build each of the planned FCX Clarity vehicles. They lease for $600 per month. It's not a production vehicle.

They have a range of about 270 miles. There's currently only one place to refuel. Hydrogen runs about $5.50 /kg, but to run in the FCX Clarity it will cost about $8 /kg at the Honda station. Better schedule a few hours for a fillup.

It's difficult to compare directly to MPG, but Honda is claiming about 68MPG. Keep in mind that this is driving per the built in computer... it wil accelerate 0 - 60 MPH in about 9 seconds, but you would get very poor fuel economy at that rate. The 100 kw power plant is equal to about a 134 HP engine.

Until we can make hydrogen directly from water on-the-fly (economically) in a vehicle we won't see many such vehicles.

So, what would happen if we put a 134 HP diesel engine in the same FCX Clarity? Probably a 2.0 L engine would do. If it were driven in the same way you could probably get very close to the same 68 MPG and a 700 mile range (instead of 270 for the fuel cell). The car might cost $25K instead of $10M. And you could actually drive it where you wanted and refuel it as needed. Exhaust emissions would be about ten times less than the average car on the road (but not zero).

Sometimes the obvious answer is right in front of our faces, but instead we spend millions, or billions looking for magic answers that may not exist.

[spun07RTX]

my alternative fuel of choice would be bio-diesel made from hemp


and yes I <3 willie nelson :D

[northernlights]

Do these new or newer diesel engines get the higher miles running on biodiesel or the good stuff? I ask because I know of to people that say their diesels have lost 4-6 mpg when filling up with biodiesel and have problems with the fuel jelling when temps drop. One sold the car, the other is forced to add a $3.00 can of additive per tank fill up. Hes pissed cause hes paying $3.15 per gallon as of today (for the cheap stuff) plus the additive. How much more do you think the diesel option will cost? I'll guess around two grand more, there buy all means not cheap. Sounds like the same old, better gas vs. E85. Once they make us all drive E85 cars and trucks, supply and demand tells me E85 will be just as expensive or more than the better stuff were paying for now. Cleaner burning or not I'll never be able to afford one.

[OhioJeffro]

Do these new or newer diesel engines get the higher miles running on biodiesel or the good stuff? I ask because I know of to people that say their diesels have lost 4-6 mpg when filling up with biodiesel and have problems with the fuel jelling when temps drop. One sold the car, the other is forced to add a $3.00 can of additive per tank fill up. Hes pissed cause hes paying $3.15 per gallon as of today (for the cheap stuff) plus the additive. How much more do you think the diesel option will cost? I'll guess around two grand more, there buy all means not cheap. Sounds like the same old, better gas vs. E85. Once they make us all drive E85 cars and trucks, supply and demand tells me E85 will be just as expensive or more than the better stuff were paying for now. Cleaner burning or not I'll never be able to afford one.

I'm not an expert on diesel's (I own a 3-cyl Kubota Diesel and that's it) but I think its usually more like 5-10 grand more up front.

[ChrisM]

I wonder why we haven't seen a pure diesel electric like in a locomotive.


I would also think that you could make something with 4 electric motors in each hub and a small 2 cylinder diesel motor either directly charging the batteries or a bunch of huge capacitors. Surely you could make something that would get 100 mpg with this sort of setup.

[northernlights]

I'm not an expert on diesel's (I own a 3-cyl Kubota Diesel and that's it) but I think its usually more like 5-10 grand more up front.

Unfortunately I think,............know, I know your right. The two grand was just for the name on it :D .

[csimo]

I'm not an expert on diesel's (I own a 3-cyl Kubota Diesel and that's it) but I think its usually more like 5-10 grand more up front.

The current trend is much less than that for passenger cars. Mercedes-Benz just set the bar at $1000. The E320 (diesel) and the E350 (gasoline) are the same except for the engine (and other necessary components of course) and the difference is $1000 on the retail side. Dealer cost difference is less than $1000.

There are three parts to the story. The first being the added upfront cost of the diesel. The second being the improved fuel economy and lower maintenance cost of the diesel. And the third being the higher resale value of a diesel vehicle.

Here's a perfect example of higher resale value. Let's use a 2000 VW Jetta GLS and Jetta TDI GLS. Same car... one gasoline and one diesel.

The TDI (diesel) cost $900 additional on the front end. The TDI driver enjoyed 30% better fuel economy during ownership. Let's look at the resale value of the two vehicles. Example is for both vehicles in the same condition with 100,000 miles:

GLS (gasoline): $7,985

GLS TDI (diesel): $10,935

That $900 additional front end investment turned into neary $3000 on the resale side. Not bad at all.

In nearly every case the diesel investment is a very wise one in an industry where the word "investment" rarely exists.

[spun07RTX]

I understand about the extra $3k of resale value, but I dont see the diesel jetta saving me any money on fuel since diesel costs 70 cents more per gallon than gas.

seems any mileage increase from using diesel is canceled out by the increased cost......:confused:

[csimo]

I understand about the extra $3k of resale value, but I dont see the diesel jetta saving me any money on fuel since diesel costs 70 cents more per gallon than gas.

seems any mileage increase from using diesel is canceled out by the increased cost......:confused:

Diesel vs gasoline price varies quite a bit by area. In my area they're just about the same right now. Traditionally diesel prices are lower than gasoline, but the last three years are not in keeping with tradition.

As of today the national average price for gasoline is $2.984 per gallon and $3.404 for diesel. http://fuelgaugereport.com

So if we adjust the gasoline price to compensate for the added efficiency of diesel that gallon of gasoline would cost $3.88 per gallon.

Doesn't matter how you look at it diesel is superior.

[spun07RTX]

I agree diesel is superior.......

but it does'nt change the fact that in my area gas costs $2.95 and diesel costs $3.65, so for me personally there is not much room for savings.

[FlaGuy509]

I'm not a big fan of diesels but to tell the truth I don't know all that much about them. The few trucks that friends or co-workers have are slow & loud, the few newer Benzes I know about are quieter,faster but expensive. The one thing I'm curious about is the amount of oil a diesel vehicle uses, isnt it almost twice as much as a gas vehicle and doesnt it have to be changed more often ??

[Twilightzero From EOC]

I agree diesel is superior.......

but it does'nt change the fact that in my area gas costs $2.95 and diesel costs $3.65, so for me personally there is not much room for savings.

It's also winter right now. Diesel fuel is almost the exact same as #1 heating oil. Therefore during the winter there is a HUGE demand for heating oil which drives the price of diesel way up. During the summer, there's no heat need so the price of diesel drops back down. Right now is just about the worst time to compare prices between the two. It's like looking at gasoline cost in February (low travel month) and June/July (high travel months).

[haar]

Another option i saw a few years ago was hydraulic powered cars. The Vo-Tech in Eden Prairie, Mn built a car that ran on a small gas motor that powered hyd pumps to move the car. Braking bled pressure off into accumulators which were then released to provide accelleration. If i recall correctly it ran on like a 18 hp motor that was mainly used for cruising as the accumulators provided the power for braking and accelleration. I believe it was touted at around 60 MPH. The idea and the prototype was sold to GM i think. This is from memory as a quick google did not turn up any info on it. But i recall watching it on the news as the students involved got their tuition paid from part of the deal with the carmakers.

[Twilightzero From EOC]

I believe it was more or less a hydrostatic drive, which is pretty much what's used on many tractors and loaders (bobcats, etc.). They're incredibly powerful and efficient at low speed but tend to have problems at anything higher than about (rough guess) 20 mph or so. I've seen cases where the vehicle will then transition to a regular mechanical transmission at that point, or possibly have some way of changing the pump ratio. Still a fascinating concept though!

[csimo]

The one thing I'm curious about is the amount of oil a diesel vehicle uses, isnt it almost twice as much as a gas vehicle and doesnt it have to be changed more often ??

Passenger car diesel engines usually have a 5 or 6 quart capacity. The oil change interval is usually longer than that of a gasoline engine.

Overall I'd say oil changes are a wash.

If you take the Mercedes E320 (diesel) vs the E350 (gasoline) you would find that the 5 year maintenance cost on the E320 (diesel) is lower than its gasoline counterpart.