Phase 2: Pioneer or Kenwood Head Unit

Thank YOU everyone for all the help. Hoffman, ShovelHD, BigInvestor, JCpilot, Bongus, and too numerous to mention. I finally got my 4 speakers Focals in and they sound incredible!! I also ran an separate set of speakers so I don't have to get back in the door for my next phase.

Here is the question I am dealing with right now. I am trying to figure out which head unit to get.

The Kenwood DNX-5120 or the Pioneer AvicF700BT?

I did a lot of research and here is my main points. It seems that the Kenwood Nav system (Garmin) is better. The UI is harder to use. While the Pioneer has good UI, had a lot of bugs on its initial release, and takes 35-60 seconds to boot up even after the firmware / software update.

Here are some general questions:

On the Pioneer how good is the GPS?
On the Kenwood, is the user interface "learnable" for my wife which I would say is mid techie.
Does the Pioneer's higher resolution make a big difference?
Why would you choose one over the other.
Is there any reason to go to the Kenwood DNX7120? I am hesitant about the longevity of the sliding screen mechanism.

Also, where is the best place to buy from a "authorized" dealer? I found Al-Eds right now to be selling a Kenwood refurb for $499 shipped.

Also, is it difficult to by pass the "park" mode? This is really critical as my wife and I take long road trips on the Ridgeline and she is the one always messing with the GPS to find restaurants, etc while I am driving.

Well this is my opinion but I've never liked Kenwood so take it with a grain of salt. Pioneer has a better user interface and more features than Kenwood but they also have the worst mapping software out there Teleatlas. Kenwood uses Garmin which is superior but both units will find your destination 95% of the time. I will add that Pioneer's gps hardware can't be touched which makes it the most accurate even without speedpulse. If in your budget move up to the F900 it's better.:)

I'm a Kenwood fan and like the DNX5120. Once you have a Garmin interface you won't want to use any other. I won't say anything bad about the Pioneer. It is a newer unit than the 5120 which is mature at this point. To bypass a kenwood you ground the parking brake wire.

Thank you Mr Bigs... Do you currently own the Pioneer? If so what model. Just wanted to get a sense. When I read the web, many many people complain about the slow start up and the bluetooth sounds terrible and the new F700BT voice recognition doesn't work very well. Is that your personal experience? Both units are about the same price

ShovelHD, also you have guided me well throughout my install. What is the one thing you don't like about the Kenwood? Also what camera did you end up using - I see many people using the Boyo due to good night (Lux) vision. Did you use the original kenwood backup camera - why?

Thanks.

The Kenwood starts up in about 10 seconds. The one thing I don't like about it? Well, mine is not an integrated unit like the 5120. All major functions, i.e. HD Radio, TV, Nav, Bluetooth are all external. That's great for upgrading. I recently upgraded my Bluetooth box for better functionality with my phone. The down side is that the temptation to upgrade is always there. I want a new HD Radio tuner now, to get track info and better analog/digital integration. That's more money.

I have a Farenheit backup camera in my license plate. The nice thing about this camera is that the plate frame is tapered. It fits in the slot with no mods at all. The bad thing is that it is not made anymore. It is a 1 lux camera but don't get sucked into that. You don't need anything more than a way to see what you're about to hit. It doesn't have to be photo quality. I added backup lights which helped reverse vision all around. I really don't use the camera that much.

Thank you Mr Bigs... Do you currently own the Pioneer? If so what model. Just wanted to get a sense. When I read the web, many many people complain about the slow start up and the bluetooth sounds terrible and the new F700BT voice recognition doesn't work very well. Is that your personal experience? Both units are about the same price

ShovelHD, also you have guided me well throughout my install. What is the one thing you don't like about the Kenwood? Also what camera did you end up using - I see many people using the Boyo due to good night (Lux) vision. Did you use the original kenwood backup camera - why?

Thanks.I have a Pioneer Z2 in my old car waiting on the new Pioneer Z series to come out this summer. The Pioneer F-series just had a major firmware update that solved most issues. For Kenwood many people on here can help you with them for Pioneer go to www.avic411.com for all you need to know about Pioneer Nav's

ShovelHd

I noticed your post on subwoofer... it didn't look like you used the ED sub. Which sub did you use?

I have two Diamond Audio D610D4's right now, but I'm looking to change.

If I were putting in a new double DIN headunit - I STILL would buy a unit without GPS.

The portable or plugin GPS units are advancing at a ridiculous rate and dropping in price constantly. A $200 Garmin is fantastic and can be used in another vehicle.

Yes the screen is smaller on portable GPS units but in two years if I want a better one I'll only spend $200 to get it instead of changing out a $1000 headunit.

Just my two cents.....

If I had to do it all over again, I'd still opt for the in-dash Garmin nav. Nothing against you hofffam, I just feel otherwise.

That said, guess what I got my wife for Christmas??? :D

If I were putting in a new double DIN headunit - I STILL would buy a unit without GPS.

The portable or plugin GPS units are advancing at a ridiculous rate and dropping in price constantly. A $200 Garmin is fantastic and can be used in another vehicle.

Yes the screen is smaller on portable GPS units but in two years if I want a better one I'll only spend $200 to get it instead of changing out a $1000 headunit.

Just my two cents.....I'm really shocked at you especially being an audio enthusiast:eek: How could you compare a little portable to a full blown in dash with so many more features ?

No offense taken from those that prefer an indash GPS. But I must say I don't really understand why some say the indash units have more features. Have you seen what a $250 Garmin portable does now?

My wife's 3 yr. old TomTom was really impressive at the time (and cost $500+ at the time), but newer units are vastly improved. It costs almost as much to buy new maps as it does to buy a new unit.

No offense taken from those that prefer an indash GPS. But I must say I don't really understand why some say the indash units have more features. Have you seen what a $250 Garmin portable does now?

My wife's 3 yr. old TomTom was really impressive at the time (and cost $500+ at the time), but newer units are vastly improved. It costs almost as much to buy new maps as it does to buy a new unit.I was only joking with you :D I actually have an Alpine Blackbird I use for the RL until I tear into it and put the system in.;)

Hoffman, I have been agonizing precisely on that issue for a very long time - GPS portable unit or In dash. Your point is well taken as these portable units are getting ridiculously advanced for cheap.

But... after giving a lot of consideration, one of a very important criteria is a back up camera so all said and done, I decided to go for a single unit. I just ordered the DNX-5120 from Al & Ed's which is an authorized reseller of Kenwood. I ordered the AI kit and harness from Crutchfield today and how to start my phase 2 work on Christmas day :) I hope to paint it exactly like what ShovelHd did.

BTW, ShovelHd, where did you get the SEM paint? I called a couple of auto parts store and they don't seem to carry that brand.

I think I may end up buying the ED subwoofer, and build my small box and use my Polk PA400.1 (which really is 200 RMS amp) to drive it. Lastly, I think I have to compromise and sell my Alpine 4.150 as I haven't found a good way to run the Kenwood DNX-5120 to drive 2 amps (it has only 2 pre-out not 3 so I can't preout front, back, and sub separately). I didn't want to spend the extra $ on the DNX-7120 for the 3 pre outs.

My wife is asking me to try to keep the cost down so I think I don't have much choice but to run my FoCal's off the Kenwood head unit and sell my Alpine to try to recoup some of my $.

Do you guys think it's a really bad mistake to drive my system off the HU? I am not looking for anything fancy just some good quality music at medium volume listening level.

One more thing I would love to get some feedback, my back Focal's are coaxial and doesn't have cross over control. Currently the tweeter is extremely high pitch and too overpowering. Is there something I can do to help tone it down? Should I put something in front of the tweeter to take the edge off? The front speakers are beautiful.

Thanks.

I think it would be a huge shame to drive those high resolution Focal's with the headunit amp. Maybe it would be ok for the rear speakers but not the front.

I can't believe that headunit doesn't have a sub line out.

I would buy a simple line level 2-way crossover. Run your rear line outs to the xover, then send high pass to the rear amp/speakers. Send the low bass to your sub amp. Put the xover where you can reach it so you can tune the level of the sub. Start with a a frequency between 80 and 100 hz.

I forget where I got the paint. It's in my install thread. Search for SEM.

Isn't the rear preout set switchable in the 5120 between rear and subwoofer? If so, keep your 4.150, and run the rears off of the HU.

Sem colorcoat can be purchased at an autobody supply or here http://www.perfectfit.com/15342/Vinyl--Leather-Paint.html

Also if it's in your budget this piece will solve your 2 channel pre out problem http://www.audiocontrol.com/t34/5247/14144/Digital-Car-Audio-Processors/DQX-Digital-Car-Audio-Equalizer-and-Crossover.html

I forget where I got the paint. It's in my install thread. Search for SEM.

Isn't the rear preout set switchable in the 5120 between rear and subwoofer? If so, keep your 4.150, and run the rears off of the HU.

Yes... the rear preout is switchable to be a rear or sub. So... basically is this what you are suggesting?

1) Run the HU front Preout to Alpine to drive the front speakers (set the Alpine configuration to 2x150watts + 1x300watts
2) Run the Head Unit powered rear out to the back speakers
3) Run the subwoofer from the Alpine bridged 300 watts RMS with signal coming from the HU rear/sub pre-out.
4) Sell the Polk PA400.1
5) Run a single 4 Gauage dedicated power to the Alpine.

Did I get that right? Once again, thank you for being patient with me as I am slowly coming along considering I didn't know a single thing only one month back.

Also if it's in your budget this piece will solve your 2 channel pre out problem http://www.audiocontrol.com/t34/5247/14144/Digital-Car-Audio-Processors/DQX-Digital-Car-Audio-Equalizer-and-Crossover.html

Thanks for your input... but the DQXs is way out of my budget. I am a simple man with limited budget. :)

Need to make sure to keep the wife happy with my expenses.

Yes... the rear preout is switchable to be a rear or sub. So... basically is this what you are suggesting?

1) Run the HU front Preout to Alpine to drive the front speakers (set the Alpine configuration to 2x150watts + 1x300watts
2) Run the Head Unit powered rear out to the back speakers
3) Run the subwoofer from the Alpine bridged 300 watts RMS with signal coming from the HU rear/sub pre-out.
4) Sell the Polk PA400.1
5) Run a single 4 Gauage dedicated power to the Alpine.

Did I get that right? Once again, thank you for being patient with me as I am slowly coming along considering I didn't know a single thing only one month back.

We have bingo.

Good suggestion from Shovelhd - that's a great solution. Didn't know the Kenwood could do that.

Mr. Bigs - I would love to have the DQXS. But my budget didn't allow it two years ago - and still won't!

Good suggestion from Shovelhd - that's a great solution. Didn't know the Kenwood could do that.

Mr. Bigs - I would love to have the DQXS. But my budget didn't allow it two years ago - and still won't! Don't worry about it,I can get you a very good deal on it just drop me a PM.;)

Guys... I just thought about another idea. I can always use a line out converter to bring the signal down to a preout state. Then I can use the front pre-out to Alpine amp, the rear line out to converter to alpine amp, rear pre-out to the polk amp for the sub.

Does anyone know of any type of sound degradation using a converter. I was poking around the Crutchfield catalog and saw that they make amp that takes line out input. Is it a bad idea to use line out as a source for the amp?

Scosche LOC-80 is the line coverter runs about $20

I try to avoid them at all costs. The Scosche is the cheapest low end hilo available. If you want to go this route with your class of components, at least buy a good hilo such as the Audio Control. I hear Mr. Bigs can get you a deal on one.

The only reason you'd want to go this route is to power the rears, and the more you power the rears, the more you wreck the soundstage of those beautiful Focal's.

I try to avoid them at all costs. The Scosche is the cheapest low end hilo available. If you want to go this route with your class of components, at least buy a good hilo such as the Audio Control. I hear Mr. Bigs can get you a deal on one.

The only reason you'd want to go this route is to power the rears, and the more you power the rears, the more you wreck the soundstage of those beautiful Focal's.

Glad I asked. Thank you as I value your feedback. The Sosche is no longer an option. Just to clarify, I do have Focals in the back also but they are just coaxials. Are you suggesting that if I drive too much power into the back speakers, it would ruin the sound stage for the front soundstage regardless of type of speaker in the back?

I'll ping Mr. Bigs just to see what the prices are for the Audio Control L6i.

One more question, are the amps with line input OK to use? For example the Alpine V series MRP-F600 (4x100W RMS) or Sony XM-4S (4x50 RMS). Are the amp line input conversion clean as compared to the Audio Control?

I just got my Kenwood DNX5120 about 30 mins ago... so pretty excited to get started with my second phase of installing the HU.

Thanks.

Line input = low level.
Speaker input = high level.

If you can use low level inputs throughout, you will be much better off.

FYI, I have rainbow coaxials in the rears powered by the same 125W/ch as the components in the front. I set the processor to run them at 6dB down. That keeps my front stage clean, and adds some nice ambience when watching a DVD.

Line input = low level.
Speaker input = high level.

If you can use low level inputs throughout, you will be much better off.

FYI, I have rainbow coaxials in the rears powered by the same 125W/ch as the components in the front. I set the processor to run them at 6dB down. That keeps my front stage clean, and adds some nice ambience when watching a DVD.

I have been using the wrong teminology. I try to reask it - are the amps that take speaker level input OK such as the Alpine V series MRP-F600 (4x100W RMS) or Sony XM-4S (4x50 RMS). Basically, are the speaker level signal conversion to low level input build on the amps as clean as the audio control units?

Thanks.

With high quality amps, yes, but the best amps don't have hilo converters because no matter how you look at them, they are a compromise. They don't belong in a system of your caliber.

sorry im an alpine fan!

Thinking about this for a bit, using a hilo for the rears should be fine.

Thinking about this for a bit, using a hilo for the rears should be fine.

Do you mean using something like Audio Control or do you mean using an amp that has hi lo for the rear?

Thanks for the advice and figuring this out for me.

Any hilo converter, whether it's in the amp or not. I still like my first suggestion best. Power the rears from the HU. Bridge the 4.150 for the sub. But if that's not enough sub power and you want to keep your sub amp, then use the hilo to power the rears from the 4.150.