To Hybrid or not to Hybrid

Ok, I've got a question hopefully someone can help out on. My wife is looking to get an 06/07 Civic, and we're not sure if we should get a Hybrid, or just the standard gas Civic. She drives about 50% highway (or more). I've heard that the function of the hybrid operates best under local (slower) travels, not highway speeds. Is it really worth it to get on the waiting list, pay more for the hybrid, for less horsepower? By the way, she wants a 4 door, so no 06 Si. Although, we have talked about waiting for the 07 Si Sedan to come out.

At this point I don't think any hybrid can be justified on strictly an economic basis so your decision has to be based on other factors such as how "green" do you want to be. A decison like that can only be made by you. I am all for hybrids at the point where they make economic sense.

I can see your point, No offense to any tree huggers, but green or not green doesn't bother me either way, obviously since I've bought a truck :D Just trying to see if it would make sence from a gas expenditure point of view.

I seriously looked at Hybrids. There are two approaches to making this decision. The first is the soft approach which is based upon how "green" you want to be. How good it makes you feel that you believe that you are having less of an impact on the environment (I say "believe" because the only area where they have less impact is in the engine emissions. Making and disposing of batteries is a very dirty process). Classic economic theory dispells the idea of taking one for the team by driving green-read up on the tragedy of the commons.
The second approach is hard economics, and is much easier. Estimate how many miles you drive per month. Pick the highest gasoline prices you have seen in your area in the past couple of years. Compare the mileage between the hybrid and the gasoline car you are considering. Now look at the price difference between those cars and figure out how long it will take you to recover the increased cost of a hybrid through savings in gasoline. When I did the math, it would have taken six years just to break even. And don't fall into the trap that the hybrid technology is any better in the maintenance areas. These are more complex systems than traditional gasoline engines.

In the end, gasoline-electric hybrids are a transition technology. At some point in the near future, automobiles will move to a new platform such as hydrogen, or electric, or something else. I didn't feel comfortable investing so heavily in a transition technology that would be swept aside very quickly when we finally wise up and settle on another technology. The transition to that technology will be from gasoline to something else, not hybrid to something else.
Wow, that was quite an essay. Sorry for the novel, I hope it helps you in your decision.:)

My wife and I bought a 2006 Civic hybrid and love it. When making your decision also consider the approx. $2000 tax CREDIT that you would receive on your 2006 income taxes if you buy soon (all sorts of fine print as to when that will run out).

www.greenhybrid.com is a great resource if you have any questions.

Ian

We have a 2006 Civic Hybrid also. It is great.

We get about 45 mpg and that is driving around 50-65 mph for the most part.

Accordingto Consumers Report, the Civic and the Prius are the only two hybrids that will save money in the long run, but not much.

I like the fact that it is a PZEv.

We're happy. If your wife wants the greater HP with the regular Civic, go for it. :)

Ok, I've got a question hopefully someone can help out on. My wife is looking to get an 06/07 Civic, and we're not sure if we should get a Hybrid, or just the standard gas Civic. She drives about 50% highway (or more). I've heard that the function of the hybrid operates best under local (slower) travels, not highway speeds. Is it really worth it to get on the waiting list, pay more for the hybrid, for less horsepower? By the way, she wants a 4 door, so no 06 Si. Although, we have talked about waiting for the 07 Si Sedan to come out.


Hey Luder62678R1.
Sweet avatar. How did you do that?:cool:

Thanks for all the replies. RiverFisher, I grabbed a screenshot of the commerical and resized it and cropped it with Photoshop to fit as an avatar :D

Economically: Gas wins
Green: Hybrid wins in city. Gas probably ties or wins on highway. Besides...what happens to all those batteries when they have to be replaced? Landfill?

Look at April's Consumer Reports. They have a big write up on Hybrids and how they aren't worth it from a strictly financial point of view. Good read.

No hybrid for me...

too many questions regarding safety, and battey life, also I have read to make up for the extra sticker price on a hybrid gas would have to be around $6.00 per gallon. It does not makes sense since gas is @ $2.43. Lastly I am concerned about the power a hybrid provides, the ones i have seen seem to struggle to get out of their own way, much less pass, or merge @ high speeds.

I think ill wait unitil a hydrogen powered vehicle comes out,

Economically: Gas wins
Green: Hybrid wins in city. Gas probably ties or wins on highway. Besides...what happens to all those batteries when they have to be replaced? Landfill?

Look at April's Consumer Reports. They have a big write up on Hybrids and how they aren't worth it from a strictly financial point of view. Good read.

As referred to in an earlier post, CS revised their report due to errrors in the original printed in the magazine. The Prius and Civic do save a little bit in their corrected comparison.

I agree their insights were interesting, like projected lower resale values for hybrids versus their gas counterparts and interest calculation on the extra cost of the vehicle over x years. It was a pretty comprehensive analysis.

I don't see the battery disposal issue to be all that big of a deal as (substantially) all batteries are recycled already and certainly these will be too.

It will be interesting to see whose hybrid "family car" Accord or Camry, is a bigger hit in the market. They clearly took different strategies with regard to HP, mileage and pricing:

Camry Hybrid:
Horsepower – 192
Mileage – 40 city/38 hwy
Base MSRP - $25,900

Accord Hybrid:
Horsepower – 253
Mileage – 25 city/34 hwy
Base MSRP - $30,990

Besides the extra cost to purchase a hybrid vs what you will save in gas issue. I am also concerned about what they will do with the batteries after they need to be replaced. I heard the life span is 6 years. So instead of burning some extra fuel, hybrid owners will be filling up landfills. Seems like its pick your poison: Either burn fossil fuel, and support OPEC, or fill up landfills for future generations to deal with.


Did anyone see the South Park last week,? pretty hilarious regarding hybrids.

I seriously looked at Hybrids. There are two approaches to making this decision. The first is the soft approach which is based upon how "green" you want to be. How good it makes you feel that you believe that you are having less of an impact on the environment (I say "believe" because the only area where they have less impact is in the engine emissions. Making and disposing of batteries is a very dirty process). Classic economic theory dispells the idea of taking one for the team by driving green-read up on the tragedy of the commons.
The second approach is hard economics, and is much easier. Estimate how many miles you drive per month. Pick the highest gasoline prices you have seen in your area in the past couple of years. Compare the mileage between the hybrid and the gasoline car you are considering. Now look at the price difference between those cars and figure out how long it will take you to recover the increased cost of a hybrid through savings in gasoline. When I did the math, it would have taken six years just to break even. And don't fall into the trap that the hybrid technology is any better in the maintenance areas. These are more complex systems than traditional gasoline engines.

In the end, gasoline-electric hybrids are a transition technology. At some point in the near future, automobiles will move to a new platform such as hydrogen, or electric, or something else. I didn't feel comfortable investing so heavily in a transition technology that would be swept aside very quickly when we finally wise up and settle on another technology. The transition to that technology will be from gasoline to something else, not hybrid to something else.
Wow, that was quite an essay. Sorry for the novel, I hope it helps you in your decision.:)

I agree. Hybrids don't seem to justify their high prices. I think people are fooled by the MPG idea. One has to consider overall driving needs. And I also agree about the transitory nature of hybrids. Also, in about 8-10 years, those batteries will need replacing and it's going to cost a couple grand to do that.

I thought I'd bring this thread back to life. I'm starting to look at replacing my wife's 2003 Pilot, so I thought I'd look into hybrids while I'm at it.

The only one that comes close to her Pilot is the Toyota Highlander Hybrid Limited. The Lexus is too much money, and I'm not taking a risk going with a domestic because our Hondas have won us over in that regard.

There are Highlander Hybrids all over the lots up here because they have been so successful saleswise that they've hit the quota for the tax credit. What used to be $2K is now $650. The other factor is there is a FMC for 2008 coming. The current Highlander is smaller than the current Pilot, and the 2008 is supposed to be much closer in size.

It looks like a good deal on that vehicle comparably equipped to her Pilot would be around $34K less taxes, license, fees, etc.

There are conflicting reports of when the Pilot gets its FMC but the best info I've seen is 2009, available in the spring of 2008. There are some great incentives now on the 2007 Pilot, so for sake of an even comparision, let's just use today's prices. A good deal on a comparable replacement Pilot would be about $30K less taxes, license, fees, etc.

So roughly the hybrid uplift would be about $3400 over four years. Gas mileage is so dependent on driving habits it's tough to state anything definitive, but let's just say that the Highlander Hybrid would get 10mpg better mileage. At $3.00/gallon that's about a $1200/year savings. So at best, you're saving money after the third year.

At this point it's just not a compelling enough argument to go in that direction.

FMC?

Can you really buy a comparably equipped Highlander for that little over a Pilot?

When we bought our 06 Pilot EX-L 2WD, we drove the Highlander Hybrid. At that time there was a waiting list and the comparable Highlander was $40K. I know there is no waiting list anymore.

I thought the hybrid drivetrain was very cool. The silent low speed operation, etc. Very nicely done.

But the Highlander is much smaller and barely comparable. The 3rd seat is a joke. No A/C vents to the rear (important in Texas). Our 2WD Pilot can get 25 MPG on the highway but closer to 20 in errand driving like my wife does.

I don't think the Highlander can get 10MPG more in the real world. It will be interesting to see the 2008 EPA numbers, which will significantly drop estimates for all cars, and hybrids especially.

We've got a few dealers in our area advertising Highlander Hybrid Limiteds with OP2 for between $33K-$35K. I assumed that meant that the $1500 cash back went to the dealer, just for comparison. The MSRP is in the $39K range. The Boston dealers are loaded with them. I'm not at the point where I need to know the exact dollars, I just wanted to do the math and figure out the payback.

The 2008 is supposed to be larger although looking at the pics on toyota.com that third seat still looks like a joke. It has a removable second seat center section that looks really hokey and uncomfortable.

A good friend of mine bought the RX400H - I think he paid upper 40s for it. He did it just to be green. I think he's nuts.

I wish the 2008 EPA ratings were out....

Honda believes in hybrids so much that they not wasting their time anymore..... :rolleyes: ...... The design of the ultra low emission beats out the pollution used to provide the energy and energy storage systems (batteries)f or the hybrid... And as noted the so-called efficiency for hybrids has been corrected by the EPA....

I have heard that the environmental impact of hybrid batteries can be more detrimental to the environment then the ULVE from well designed automobiles.

Honestly, I am not sure I care one way or the other. Until "science" decides to address this issue properly, my view is that this is just plain politics and that gas prices, environmental taxes, lifestyle modifications, and so on have no basis in reality; only what "we" are willing to accept.

I have nothing against anyone who buys a "green" car to be "green". They put their money where their mouth is, and I commend them for it. My analysis was strictly economic.

I do agree. It is not a philisophical difference, but I just do not like the "pointing a finger you gas gussler " mentality.

If it is important to you then do it period! Scare tactics, political and social pressures should not equate. If "they" really wanted a better way I think these problems have already been solved mostly.

I have nothing against anyone who buys a "green" car to be "green". They put their money where their mouth is, and I commend them for it. My analysis was strictly economic.

Yes they do. It's good that there are early adopters to pay for these expensive things. But hybrids are not proven to be more green than a well designed gasoline powered car. The only thing proven so far is that they use less gasoline.

I was looking into a car that got the very best gas mileage recently. I researched the Honda Hybrid and the Prius. The Prius is the better Hybrid at this point. I forget the various reasons, but the Prius from what I read seemed like the better choice.

I was turned off by the high prices of the Hybrids and then decided to look at other cars. I first looked at the Honda Fit and it had an estimated MPG of 38 for a price of starting at 13,800 from their website. I then looked at other cars and the Fit just seemed like the best value. Then I looked at the Civic DX manual Tranny and it has a price of 15,010 with a 40 MPG. To me the Civic DX is the better value for the car you get in return for the good MPG.

The Honda Hybrid as a price of 22,600 with 51MPH. To me that a lot of money for the slight difference in better gas mileage.

So if I were going to go buy a car to get the best gas mileage out there at a reasonable cost I would go after the Honda Civic.

Plus, I think Honda and others will be creative real soon with Hybrids as far as improvements are concerned. So me, personally I would hold off at least for the 08's to come out before I seriously looked at a Hybrid in 07.

Just remember if you are leaning towards the Civic DX...it doesn't come with a radio or A/C from the factory. You are much better off just stepping up and getting the LX model. We don't even order the DX models at our store.

Hi everyone,

I need some help on basic calculations or opinions.

I have a Honda Pilot 03 model which is around 50k in mileage.KBB value as trade in is around $15,500.I'll be happy if Carmax gives me $16,500 for it.I want to keep the Pilot to keep my wife off from my Ridgeline, at they same time I want to let go of it so I can get another vehicle thats good on gas. My wifes new job is 80 miles rt 4x a week on bad traffic.

All our vehicles are paid off..In as much as we don't want new car payments and planned to keep the two vehicles till the wheels fall of, I hate the idea of enriching some gasoline CEO everytime I gass up. Our monthly expense of $500/month for gas, is still far from hurting our bottomline, yet its' making me ponder on the other uses of $500 other than enriching those leeches.

Based on a $139/ month insurance and $500/month for gas ,anyone savvy with math here who can tell me what should gas prices be before it makes sense for me to buy a third gas sipper car priced around $25-30k?Is it $4 or $5/gallon?Should I sell the Pilot now before it's KBB worsens and get a 4 banger Accord or Camry.

My practical side tells me that my $25 K budget for a new car can buy me about 85,000 miles, at 17 mpg even at a high $5/gallon or about 2.83 years of driving for our Pilot and Ridgeline.

The above computations is my own tunnel vision way of seeing things, maybe one of you guys can anyone show me the wisdom or folly thru simple math on the following.

1.Sell the Pilot, buy a Prius or Civic Hybrid
2. Keep the Pilot, buy a Prius or Civic Hybrid
3.Sell the Pilot, buy a Camry Hybrid
4.Keep the Pilot, buy a Camry Hybrid

Just remember if you are leaning towards the Civic DX...it doesn't come with a radio or A/C from the factory. You are much better off just stepping up and getting the LX model. We don't even order the DX models at our store.

That's interesting, didn't know that. course putting in your own radio could save you some $$ on what Honda probably charges you for a radio, and get a better radio to boot. :D

Hi everyone,

I need some help on basic calculations or opinions.

I have a Honda Pilot 03 model which is around 50k in mileage.KBB value as trade in is around $15,500.I'll be happy if Carmax gives me $16,500 for it.I want to keep the Pilot to keep my wife off from my Ridgeline, at they same time I want to let go of it so I can get another vehicle thats good on gas. My wifes new job is 80 miles rt 4x a week on bad traffic.

All our vehicles are paid off..In as much as we don't want new car payments and planned to keep the two vehicles till the wheels fall of, I hate the idea of enriching some gasoline CEO everytime I gass up. Our monthly expense of $500/month for gas, is still far from hurting our bottomline, yet its' making me ponder on the other uses of $500 other than enriching those leeches.

Based on a $139/ month insurance and $500/month for gas ,anyone savvy with math here who can tell me what should gas prices be before it makes sense for me to buy a third gas sipper car priced around $25-30k?Is it $4 or $5/gallon?Should I sell the Pilot now before it's KBB worsens and get a 4 banger Accord or Camry.

My practical side tells me that my $25 K budget for a new car can buy me about 85,000 miles, at 17 mpg even at a high $5/gallon or about 2.83 years of driving for our Pilot and Ridgeline.

The above computations is my own tunnel vision way of seeing things, maybe one of you guys can anyone show me the wisdom or folly thru simple math on the following.

1.Sell the Pilot, buy a Prius or Civic Hybrid
2. Keep the Pilot, buy a Prius or Civic Hybrid
3.Sell the Pilot, buy a Camry Hybrid
4.Keep the Pilot, buy a Camry Hybrid


I have a very similar dilemma as you. I drive 66 miles round trip 5 times a week. I own a Ridge which I'm paying on and a 04 Element which is paid off with 55,000 miles. I have a 3rd car that gets 30 mpg that I drive back and forth to work since it gets good mileage. I might drive the Ridge occasionally to work, but can't afford to drive it everyday nor do I want to put that many miles on the Ridge.

The Element gets around 24 mpg which is not too bad.

Over the years I have always told myself I should have got a car that gets good gas mileage to commute with but never really did it. I've been doing this commute for 23 yrs. Now if I had got a economical car many years ago, I would have saved quite a bit of $$ over the years. I still today wonder why I don't have a car that gets good gas mileage to do the commute with.

I will probably continue to drive the 3rd car until it falls apart which is probably not too far down the road, and then look at a car that gets good gas mileage. But like you the 04 Element trade-in value I own gets worse every waiting day.

If I would have owned a car with good gas mileage 23 yrs ago I would have saved a ton of money over the years.

I do think we'll have better options for good MPH cars in the next 9 months to a year however.

Another thing you did not mention is safety. I feel a whole lot safer in the Ridge or Pilot then I would a small compact car. Safety has to be worth something, but it's at the expense of added MPG.

oh the insanity of it all! :D

Another 2003 Pilot owner. They're great vehicles. We just did the struts and sway bar bushings all around at 100K miles and the truck rides like new again.

As you've seen in this thread I'm in the same situation as you. I did the math and you are better off going with a smaller standard gas powered vehicle over a hybrid, unless your contempt for the oil companies, or your love for the environment, are a significant enough factor to shell out for it. I've taken the capitalistic approach. I own ExxonMobil stock. It's doubled in value in the past three years, paying a dividend the whole time. Gas has gone from $1.50 to $3.00 and I'm still waaaaaay ahead of the game.

If it were my choice I'd get a Scion XB, this year's model before they blew it up into an Element competitor. My brother gets 41mpg on his daily commute.

The math really isn't that hard but you have to think about it in an organized way. I suggest a spreadsheet for a fixed time period - say 5 years. The answer you want is your actual cash expenditures over that period.

Calculate the following for each of the next 5 yrs:

1. annual finance cost for the Pilot ($0 since it is paid for)
2. annual fuel cost (#miles per year divided by MPG times $pergal.
3. annual insurance costs
4. any other predictable costs (tires, etc.)
5. Sum that over the 5 yr. period.

For any hypothetical vehicle:

1. actual purchase price of new vehicle (price minus tradein value for Pilot)
2. annual finance cost of new vehicle considering #1
3. annual fuel cost
4. annual insurance costs
5. any other predictable costs
6. sum that over the 5 yr period.

I predict that replacing a paid off Pilot early and replacing with a more fuel efficient vehicle will NOT save you money. You'll save fuel costs, but your purchase costs will swamp it.

I did some basic math. If you improve your MPG over the next 5 years by 10 MPG, you will save $6700 in fuel costs over five years if fuel starts at $3.25 and goes up 20% per year. I used 16,640 miles per year.

Will the purchase cost over five years be more than that? Absolutely.

Well I'll throw my 2 cents in since my wife and I own a civic hybrid.

When the new style civic hybrid came out you either paid MSRP or in some cases above MSRP so we passed. This April we were able to purchase an 07 HCH for $1600 off msrp + we will get a $2000 tax credit. So total cost is around $19,500 for the hybrid. You also have to remember the hybrids are well equipped and have upgraded stereo and auto climate control + some other things I can't remember so its hard to make apples to apples comparison to the other Civics. Plus the HCH is just fun as heck to drive and we average right at 47mpg with our style of driving. It's an amazing little machine and we love it, just imagine driving almost 500 miles and only putting 10 gallons of gas in your car.:D I wish my RL could do that!:rolleyes:

Just to add, you here people talk about having to replace batteries and make neg comments about the battery technology. The batteries are recyclable and both Toyota and Honda have tested the batteries up to 160,000 miles and saw very little performance decrease from the batteries, so you can feel pretty comfortable that you can drive the car for 200,000 miles without replacing batteries. I guess my wife and I will find out. I'll give everyone and update in 10 years:D