EBC Brakes: FIRST set of brake pads in the USA

[G2Turbo]

A couple months back I posted information about upgrading the brakes. As you might know, not much is available in the market performance related.

To add some context I am used to high end European cars, which have great power and don't warp the rotors. The pedal modulation really aids in feeling what the tires are doing, too. My standards are very high, and with the amazing density of poor drivers on the roads nowadays (If you're 30+ you'll relate), extra stopping/slowing ability is helpful, to say the least.

I've had a few near panic stops in the Ridgeline at highway speeds-thanks to "rubber neckers" and the sort stopping to watch the carnage, or just due to poor traffic flow. Under heavy braking the pedal becomes a bit soft and vague. The feeling leaves me to think I'm running out of brakes. Granted for a truck, these things stop great.

Also, the brakes warped a bit, which was remedied by the dealer. Now less than 3K miles later I can feel it returning. Quite annoying. We lightly use the brakes, and don't tow much other than a 1,000lb utility trailer on occasion.

It was apparent to me that better brakes were on my 'to-do' list. There wasn't anything available that appealed to me. Having used EBC brakes for years I thought of them for a trust worthy source.

Anyway, this post is a follow up.

After months of waiting the new specially made "yellow" pads finally arrived. These are the first set into the US. I orderd them from a retailer but they were 'back ordered'. Apparently they were not yet made.

It took a lot of effort on their behalf. The president got involved and coordinated this mini-project. For example the backing plates are made in Canada, then shipped to the UK for the next steps. Keep in mind EBC is HUGE, and at first i really though this guy was pulling my leg. Turns out I was quite wrong.

They even provided rear pads too. I have full set for all wheels. I'll be using EBC front rotors and the stock rear rotors. Depending on how they look I'll have them turned for a new surface. EBC does seems to allow unfinished rotors to be used with their special brake in surface treatment.

I am not sure when these pads will be officially offered. I may be able to add some sway since communicating so much with EBC. The owner/president seems to enjoy engaging me in emails.

At this point I'll try to post some pictures to start with. This weekend is packed full but will get to changing them soon and documenting it with pictures. It should be easy as the rotors are floating types, unlike a normal 4x4 with locking hubs, and will come right off.

I'll try to post some pictures of what they look like.

I'd like to test the stock brakes from a couple different speeds to see if there's any improvement. I'm hoping for maybe 5%-10% shorter distances from at least 60mph. If the pedal feel is better, and rotors don't warp so easily, I'll call it a success- stopping 'faster' will be a success.

Anyone want to temporarily donate a G-Tech Pro or similar in the name of scientific testing?

Note: The black finish is not paint ( ) on the rotors. It is embedded into the metal, like an oxide or other industrial coating such as nickel cadmium.

The Big pads are for the front, and smaller ones for the rear.

[OhioJeffro]

I'm a big supporter of EBC brake pads. Just put "Green Stuff" on my Accord in Jan/Feb and love them. I don't have any experience with the "Yellow stuff" myself, so will be interested in hearing how they work for ya! I hope you enjoy!

[Cochise111]

I wish you luck in preventing brake vibration. From lots of experience I'll tell you that when you have a vehicle prone to develop brake vibration the problem lies in wheel bearing run-out rather than rotor warpage. The only way I've been able to resolve such problems is by using a machine to resurface the rotors on the vehicle. In fact, most rotor manufacturers will tell you that rotors don't truly warp at all, but the vibration you feel is from the minute untrue variations in bearing run-out.

[2Hondas]

This is good. By the time I will need brakes, the rotors and pads should be readily available, right?

[NJ RTX]

EBC pads are great...used green stuff on my G35 as well as hawk HP's and the EBC did as well if not better.

[G2Turbo]

Originally Posted by Cochise111

I wish you luck in preventing brake vibration. From lots of experience I'll tell you that when you have a vehicle prone to develop brake vibration the problem lies in wheel bearing run-out rather than rotor warpage. The only way I've been able to resolve such problems is by using a machine to resurface the rotors on the vehicle. In fact, most rotor manufacturers will tell you that rotors don't truly warp at all, but the vibration you feel is from the minute untrue variations in bearing run-out.

Highly interesting comments Cochise. Thanks.

I think this upgrade will do the trick. This truck won't be the only vehicle I've done brake upgrades to. The OE pads are not wearing at all, which indicates to me they don't absorb heat, thus making the rotors absorb more causing warpage. It's typical of almost all vehicles, no matter the price, unless it's a race car (where pad wear is desired [to save the spendy rotors])

Your experience may be valid, and the principal well founded for traditional bearings, where a cup and cone is used. When loose they can cause those symptoms. The ridgeline uses modern sealed beartings that are not adjustable. However in my experience it almost always is because of warped rotors, even on adjustable bearing types. Loose bearings will cause other issues, like wheel balance problems to be worse, or knocking to occurr.

Machining rotors on the vehicle can help as mentioned. It will accommodate for poor fit of rotor to hub assemblies. But a loose bearing will throw the machine off. I've yet to work at at shop that uses one. Even when I was in Tech school we never used that type of machine even though a new one was available.

I strongly disagree about the statement where manufacturers are saying "...rotors don't warp at all". If that were true, then 2 piece rotors wouldn't exist. Also, I would like to see the source on this one. I'm almost certain not one of them would say that.


Have you ever used a Armco disc/drum machine tool? Even moderately warped rotors will laterally wobble quite a bit, causing pedal oscillations. About 0.010" and it becomes noticeable depending on the car and how sensitive the owner is. I've machined probably thousands of rotors and i know that true rotors solve the problem, WAY more than properly adjusted hub bearing.

For those that don't understand the "warping" phenomenon, here's a quick explanation:

The temperature differential between the rotor surface area and the "hat" section that mounts to the hub becomes too much which distorts the metal. This is what causes warped rotors. Part of it is due to the auto makers quasi-negligence with inadequate brake sizing, and brake pads that force rotors to absorb most of the heat. There is plenty of information available on this subject, most of which I got from text books. Anyone with racing brakes or a ultra exotic car will immediately relate- even those that experience brake problems.

Your last statement is completely wrong, sorry. One should not make finite statements that are just plain wrong. No offense, but keep in mind people tend to believe those that make this type of presentation. Hopefully this trend is only limited to this one topic

Anyrate, the comments are great and ultimately people can, and do, learn. Your experience and mileage may vary, as they say.

[Cochise111]

Originally Posted by G2Turbo

Highly interesting comments Cochise. Thanks.

I think this upgrade will do the trick. This truck won't be the only vehicle I've done brake upgrades to. The OE pads are not wearing at all, which indicates to me they don't absorb heat, thus making the rotors absorb more causing warpage. It's typical of almost all vehicles, no matter the price, unless it's a race car (where pad wear is desired [to save the spendy rotors])

Your experience may be valid, and the principal well founded for traditional bearings, where a cup and cone is used. When loose they can cause those symptoms. The ridgeline uses modern sealed beartings that are not adjustable. However in my experience it almost always is because of warped rotors, even on adjustable bearing types. Loose bearings will cause other issues, like wheel balance problems to be worse, or knocking to occurr.

Machining rotors on the vehicle can help as mentioned. It will accommodate for poor fit of rotor to hub assemblies. But a loose bearing will throw the machine off. I've yet to work at at shop that uses one. Even when I was in Tech school we never used that type of machine even though a new one was available.

I strongly disagree about the statement where manufacturers are saying "...rotors don't warp at all". If that were true, then 2 piece rotors wouldn't exist. Also, I would like to see the source on this one. I'm almost certain not one of them would say that.


Have you ever used a Armco disc/drum machine tool? Even moderately warped rotors will laterally wobble quite a bit, causing pedal oscillations. About 0.010" and it becomes noticeable depending on the car and how sensitive the owner is. I've machined probably thousands of rotors and i know that true rotors solve the problem, WAY more than properly adjusted hub bearing.

For those that don't understand the "warping" phenomenon, here's a quick explanation:

The temperature differential between the rotor surface area and the "hat" section that mounts to the hub becomes too much which distorts the metal. This is what causes warped rotors. Part of it is due to the auto makers quasi-negligence with inadequate brake sizing, and brake pads that force rotors to absorb most of the heat. There is plenty of information available on this subject, most of which I got from text books. Anyone with racing brakes or a ultra exotic car will immediately relate- even those that experience brake problems.

Your last statement is completely wrong, sorry. One should not make finite statements that are just plain wrong. No offense, but keep in mind people tend to believe those that make this type of presentation. Hopefully this trend is only limited to this one topic

Anyrate, the comments are great and ultimately people can, and do, learn. Your experience and mileage may vary, as they say.

StopTech : Balanced Brake Upgrades

There is a lot of online material concerning "warpage" of brake rotors, if you'd take the time to look. I was also an auto tech for over twenty years and attended several manufacturer's brake classes including Lexus. For years Honda and other manufacturers made their rotors irremovable so they had to be resurfaced on the vehicle to eliminate the run-out cause for vibration. The only factory-recommended resurfacing procedure in the dealerships I worked was on the vehicle in an attempt to eliminate vibration due to bearing run-out. I guess Lexus and Toyota are just wrong too.

[G2Turbo]

Originally Posted by Cochise111

StopTech : Balanced Brake Upgrades

There is a lot of online material concerning "warpage" of brake rotors, if you'd take the time to look. I was also an auto tech for over twenty years and attended several manufacturer's brake classes including Lexus. For years Honda and other manufacturers made their rotors irremovable so they had to be resurfaced on the vehicle to eliminate the run-out cause for vibration. The only factory-recommended resurfacing procedure in the dealerships I worked was on the vehicle in an attempt to eliminate vibration due to bearing run-out. I guess Lexus and Toyota are just wrong too.

Of course I'm aware of what's on-line, as most people are-- just about everything. There's that side of the coin, then there is the practical reality.

That link is geared more towards racing and high performance. As mentioned only the most exotic cars use two piece rotors. Their criteria is narrow focused, and does not relate well to normal daily driven street cars using different pad compounds and rotors types. If anyone wants to take that as gospel for a normal street car then so be it. There will always be a difference between theoretical and practical effects- how something is used makes all the difference. Do not take this wrong: I respect Stop Tech and would in a moment mount them to any vehicle I own.

Next:

I've serviced many a fixed Honda rotor, and with your experience, ought to know they are NOT "irremovable". The shop owner I worked for years also thought the rotors did not come off until I showed him, how to (easily) remove the hub and remove the 4 bolts to free the rotor to be machined. I noticed you mentioned machining the rotors......

An interesting point you mention related to "bearing run-out". I don't recall ever seeing a TSB that stated this phenomenon, no matter the marque/brand. I'm not stating that it hasnt' been done. And previously mentioned that it couldn't have some influence, if a bearing was loose enough.

What gets me that an OEM would make this statement about "run out", to redirect the blame to another component. To me it sounds like a ploy, as you propose, to more or less state: "yes, we are aware of brake pedal pulsation complaints/problems, but it is not because of warped rotors".

Funny this. Well, yes, both Lexus and Toyota are wrong. Same company so there's really no difference. Throw Honda in there too. Feel free to show us any TSB or Recall or Campaign information to prove differently.

The reason I can say this is because of personal experience. Good 'ol real world stuff: My 2003 Toyota Tundra SR5 4x4 v8 TRD Access Cab had the warped rotor syndrome. It was under warranty, what did they do? They removed the rotors and machined them. Keep in mind the warranty is 3/36. Do you REALLY think, if loose bearings were the culprit, they wouldn't say anything? Do you also really think bearings on a low mileage new truck with barely 20K would become so loose so soon? Would they replace the bearings and tell me only the rotors were resurfaced? Would my service paperwork NOT have the actual work performed? Hmmm.

Next Case: Our 2006 Ridgeline. At 21K miles the brake pedal pulsates when stopping. Rotors are machined at Honda Dealership, as visibly apparent by looking at them, problem is gone. They slide right off, unlike the old design. Did Honda also replace my wheel bearings w/o notification? Doubtful, they wouldn't get the warranty labor credits. I also know the Service Manager a bit, and even interviewed with him once. His character is infallible and I would send any of my customers to know to him if needed.

Even more on the Ridge-- At 22.5K miles the rotors are warping again-- under normal no towing, easy driving highway miles, too. Ooops, I mean the brake pedal is pulsating again. Luckily the fancy brake parts finally arrived. Off come the old, on go the new. I even checked the hub bearings for looseness. Just like new. See where I'm going with this?

I've only driven on the new front rotors and pads for a day so far. Symptom? Gone. Just like that: changed rotors and pads. Voila.

Okay, so there's a trend. Is it only me? Does your vast experience become so easily swayed by what an OEM may say? Is it possible they are CYA'ing themselves to avoid admitting to a problem? Ever see TSB's on domestics for fuel injector problems? It's actually funny how they word them to say there's a perceived problem, and here's how to "fix" it, but otherwise deny the problem. Not everything in print is the honest truth.

If you want to say that adjusting bearings on your customer's vehicles fixes their brake pedal ossicilations, then great. If it works, wonderful. I'm not saying that whatever you do/have done doesn't work. I wasn't there. There are many variables to contend with. On old vehicles I'd probably agree with you a bit. However I'd say for the majority of brake problems, very, very few have been the cause of ONLY loose bearings. None that I know of, sorry.

Briefly: When a caliper squeezes the brake rotor, it runs true at that point, no matter how loose the bearing is. Seen it, tested it. The ONLY runout is perpendicular to the hub, or axially (up and down, not side to side). This vertical motion does NOT cause caliper piston kick back, like a warped rotor. It's easily verified: measure the thickness at various points with a caliper. Also: machine ONE side of the rotor, THEN the other. There is a drastic difference, easily seen in the pattern of the rotor. Visible evidence, measured evidence, real world verified by a test drive. I always test drive vehicles after repairs, like any good mechanic.

Your experience (for any tech) should allow you to reach conclusions based on actual experience and using powers of deduction, along with available technical information. Using this information, a real cause and effect answer should become obvious.

I don't mean to hammer on you, because this is more for those that are following along, wondering what the heck makes sense.

This is all I have time to say, so thanks for joining in.

[charlesworth]

Any experience with applied rotor technologies? Applied Rotor Technology

They claim to have CRYOGENICALLY TREATED / SLOTTED PERFORMANCE BRAKE ROTORS that prevent rotors from becoming warped. Opinion as to better - same or worse than EBC?

[G2Turbo]

I think saying the rotors WON'T warp is pushing it-- do they really quote that?

The technology has been around for awhile. From what I've heard it really works, not only for brake rotors but for engine parts that see extreme stresses. People with small engines making insane HP (2.0L and 500+ HP)probably have used the treatment.

The principal is sound and will ultimately improve any metal for any application, it sounds like. It's the same relationship as Forging, except that instead of using high pressure and forming, it's a static treatment.

Another way around the inherent constraints of one piece rotors, w/o cryo treatment is 2 piece rotors. These use a separate aluminum hat, with a steel floating rotor. Most real race cars use them and are often a necessity to keep brakes from fading into oblivion when heavily used on circuit racing. The rotors are easily replaced; "hats" are reused.

There's another well known brake company that sells cryo rotors-- Power Slot, i think. I thought about buying them, but the cost was about double. I could not verify their source of rotors. For a street truck, not justifiable for me.

On a sports car or race car-- say SCCA Showroom stock where no changes are allowed (bigger brakes for example), the cryo rotors would be a great choice.

Overall the application and need is there: if you tow all the time, live in the mountains, and tail gate for fun, or race, then maybe it's the best choice for rotors. Choose a lackluster brake pad for the fancy rotors and none of it will matter.

I like EBC because they actually make their own products all in the UK- no imported Chinese parts for example. Any company that makes their own stuff is usually high on my "I like that/them" list. I feel confident from prior experience with EBC that the braking issues will abate, and they will last for years. Ultimately saving me time, effort, a few scares, and a chunk of change.

This makes me think of something else. These small businesses that import brake rotors and CNC them inhouse are pretty popular, especially on Ebay it seems. The products look okay, but the cheap castings. short warranty, and potential balance issues from being drilled/slotted/etc, concerns me. As a auto tech I assure people there are several different 'grades' available-- you get what you pay for.

Ultimately people need to ask themselves: "do i want real performance, or is the image more important"? If one is willing to pay 2/3 rds for the image, then why not go 3/3 (all the way) and get everything?