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Consumer Reports Downgrade: Fuel System Reliability

8K views 77 replies 25 participants last post by  Ridgekid 
#1 ·
Anyone have any insight into why Consumer Reports found a major decline in the fuel system's reported reliability for 2012 models?

I know that CR bases this on owner reports. What I don't know is the reason people are reporting problems.

Overall they found Much Better than Average in all categories of, "Trouble Spots by Year" for 2012 except for, "Fuel System." In that one category they report owners rating the 2012 Ridgeline, "Much Worse than Average."

Reason I'm asking: I'm looking at replacing my 2006 RTL Navi, which has been fantastic, with a 2013. If there is some significant problem though, I might skip that idea. Interestingly, they found three areas of the 2006 that were Better than Average, and all others Much Better than Average. You might say that in the 2012 reliability reports, having everything Much Better than Average with one category Much Worse than Average is a balance, but there are no gradiations of that black mark and no specifics on what the problem may be? Don't want to buy into a problem.
 
#3 ·
I think it would only be a problem if it is after the warranty expires. Could be a recent problem handled with a tech bulletin, etc.
 
#4 ·
Hi,

I just checked the rating (I have an online subscription). I think that perhaps they are equating fuel economy with fuel system as both categories were graded "worse". Maybe in today's world of "ecoboost" and variable cylinder management engines some buyers are not happy with the Ridgeline's fuel economy and therefore have given it a negative on the recent survey.

The Ridgeline went from Best in 2006,07,08,09,10 to above average last year to worse this year.

I do take issue with CR's colored bubble system. I feel that at a minimum whenever they give marks of "worse" they should at least provide a footnote for overall issues reported. To go from one extreme to another without some hint as to what the reported issues were doesn't really help consumers to make enlightened decisions.

Regards,

Manny
 
#7 ·
You would think we would have picked up on that here. I've not come across anything that I can tie to that downgrade.

Wonder what that's all about?
 
#8 ·
Without getting into how I know this, CR is not as unbiased as they claim to be. If one product consistently out performs the competition, then they must fabricate a new test, albeit unlikely in the real world, just so they can say there is less difference from the competitors. In doing so they make their testing look legitimate. It's a shame. Seen it first hand, which is why I avoid CR.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using AutoGuide.Com Free App
 
#9 ·
Without getting into how I know this, CR is not as unbiased as they claim to be. If one product consistently out performs the competition, then they must fabricate a new test, albeit unlikely in the real world, just so they can say there is less difference from the competitors. In doing so they make their testing look legitimate. It's a shame. Seen it first hand, which is why I avoid CR.
Can you provide any concrete examples of this? It's plausible, but I don't see how it would affect owner feedback.

For those who haven't done so and are CR subscribers, I strongly recommend filling out the automobile survey. The more legitimate owners who do so, the easier it will be to drown out any trolls who might be making fake complaints.
 
#12 ·
CR's program, statistically, is the best one going IMO. Loads and loads better than JD Powers and others who have much smaller samples and follow up only for a couple of years. CR is one of the very few that follow cars as they age well beyond the warranty period. That's where you see the cheaper brands / builds show their true colors. Heck, compare JD Powers to CR in terms of most reliable brands after 5 or 6 years - different cars brands show up. CR may oversimplify the data with their reporting system, but at least the data is there to consider post warranty.
 
#19 ·
I was a member of the JD Power, Power Panel for several years and I can tell you that the article you site is about as biased as it gets. It was actually written by a competitor to JD Power. I am not saying his data is better or worse than JD Power, but he is a competitor and as a result his opinions on a competitor should obviously be discounted.

There is a significant difference between what JD Power does compared to the other consumer surveys. The customer for the two primary JD Power automobile studies are the auto manufactures... not the public. There is incidental data released to the public, but they are not the customer, and the actual data provided by the study is much more elaborate and detailed than what the public can see.

As for the Consumer Reports situation with the 2012 Ridgeline... I have ZERO information from Consumers Union and I cannot speak for Honda, but I will say that the comment I heard was that the sample for the 2012 Ridgeline was so small that it was considered a statistical anomaly. I don't know if Consumer Reports releases the sample size for each vehicle, but there is obviously going to be a huge difference between maybe 50 responses for a Ridgeline vs 500,000 for a F-150.
 
#20 ·
As for the Consumer Reports situation with the 2012 Ridgeline... I have ZERO information from Consumers Union and I cannot speak for Honda, but I will say that the comment I heard was that the sample for the 2012 Ridgeline was so small that it was considered a statistical anomaly. I don't know if Consumer Reports releases the sample size for each vehicle, but there is obviously going to be a huge difference between maybe 50 responses for a Ridgeline vs 500,000 for a F-150.
This is the explanation that sprang to mind for me. If you look at the full user reviews, there are only three of them for 2012, and they all quote problems that are virtually unknown here on the ROC. I do recognise the one complaint about doors bouncing back from someone here a while ago.

2012 owners, please report your findings to CR!
 
#23 ·
This is the explanation that sprang to mind for me. If you look at the full user reviews, there are only three of them for 2012, and they all quote problems that are virtually unknown here on the ROC. I do recognise the one complaint about doors bouncing back from someone here a while ago.

2012 owners, please report your findings to CR!
Yes, doors bounce back if they are not closed with enough force.... specially the back doors being so light weight; but I think that is due to the inside being air tight... and when I leave a window crack open, that problem goes away and it does shut without too much force.
 
#15 ·
Not to be a downer to storyline, I bought a 2012 RTL about a month after I had the truck ,it had to be towed to dealer...Reason, my fuel injectors had to be replaced.They all were either not working correctly or were stuck open..They had the truck for 4 days because of parts..It makes you wonder. Truck ,fingers crossed, has been fine since.
 
#18 ·
When I started looking at the Ridgeline for purchase I got one of the Consumer Reports books from the supermarket. This was to see what it compared with pros cons & reviews. I did not think that the Ridgeline had a forum like this. I had been on the car forums with my 94 Accord & then with my 00 Acura TL. That car was a concept drawing when I started looking at it.
The Ridgeline drove like a tall Accord Consumer Reports said back then & was pretty decent ride on the highway compared to other trucks.
 
#21 ·
Thanks for the many replies. Sounds like no one has a specific answer yet, but Onital offers a hint.

As several have noted, the good thing about the CR survey is that it is just that, a survey of owners based on their experiences (details here: http://bit.ly/Y0pM9g). One potential bias is that these are CR subscribers, but CR surveys all of their subscribers and they have over 7 million subscribers. (I don’t know how many people return the surveys of course.) Since CR doesn’t take advertising, there is no reason for them to skew or bias the results of their surveys. There would also seem to be no reason for owners to improperly rate their own cars or for the experiences of a CR subscriber with a car to be different from that of the general population. As for the specifics behind the ratings, as I recall in completing a survey, they ask questions that are as broad as the ratings themselves. They really don’t have the resources to delve into the reasons behind each aspect of each rating of each car by customers. So it is a broad brush response, but a Much Worse than Average response is a concern.

Onital (above) noted that the fuel injectors in his 2012 Ridgeline had to be replaced and his car had to be towed. That could be an anomaly or there could be some serious problem in some 2012 Ridgelines. If one person reading this forum and this particular thread, who was also willing to speak up, had that problem, it could be that many, many more have had the same problem. Or not. But even if there was a small sample in the CR survey, as CISMO muses, something caused a lot of CR subscribers in that sample who are Ridgeline owners to seriously downgrade the fuel system reliability of the 2012 and not the 2011 or prior models.

Does anyone have access to service bulletins that might speak to this?
 
#33 ·
But even if there was a small sample in the CR survey, as CISMO muses, something caused a lot of CR subscribers in that sample who are Ridgeline owners to seriously downgrade the fuel system reliability of the 2012 and not the 2011 or prior models.

Does anyone have access to service bulletins that might speak to this?
I'll add more to my comments. I have been a subscriber to Consumer Reports for at least 35 years and I respect their reviews (but don't always agree with their logic or conclusions). I put much less credence on the annual survey (emperical vs non-emperical data). As I mentioned elsewhere on ROC I was part of an organization that handed out the annual survey to over a hundred thousand employees suggesting they send in favorable reviews (I have no idea how many were ever returned). Such things happen.

In the case of the Ridgeline... yes I have access to TSB's and used to post them here on ROC, but I can no longer do so. I believe that an informed consumer is a better customer, but some dealers do not agree and complain wildly when a TSB is waived in their face. So maybe we'll be able to come to some compromise, but for now silence is the rule.

Additionally, the information regarding a statistical anomaly came about in regard to the fuel system rating. I don't have access to warranty claim rates and I didn't ask for such information, but I don't think there has been any specific increase in warranty claims that would indicate a major problem... but again I don't have direct access to that information.
 
#25 · (Edited)
How many Ridgeline owners are also CR subscribers and fill out the surveys may not be huge, but over time the dots on their surveys over the years can be quite revealing.

IMO it is all about TRENDS .. and in that light I think CR does a commendable job. I think True Delta also does, and I contribute to TD myself.
I don't think the fact that the reliability charts look similar to each other is any big surprise.

JD Power may be good for collecting data of dealerships and what gets reported back to the mfrs. as defects, etc. I am generally less interested in how many defects per 1000, but rather WHAT areas of the vehicle are generally a problem for specific vehicles. And I think that is what is most helpful for buyers.

In that respect I think CR and TD do a commendable job, even if they may be the only ones really doing it.
 
#27 ·
I don't have a 12 but my 13 is actually getting better than posted mileage and better than my 08 did......I bought a new one because my old one was great and I wanted an upgrade. So far I'm happy and have 1200 miles on it
 
#30 ·
Consumer reports is , IMO, as unbiased/reliable as it gets. When they say it's a good truck, everybodys a cr supporter. When they say the quality has slipped, out come the knives,
I've had a 2007' 2009' 2011 and 2012. The quality/reliability I've experienced has indeed slipped. My 2012 has a highway vibration, clicking steering wheel, grossly miss adjusted hood, has had the check gas cap light on several miles and seems to take noticeably longer to catch than the previous 3. The 2009 was ok. The 2011 and 2012 are pathetic compared to the 2007.
 
#32 ·
Not sure why CR would need to 'quell the corporate masses' since corporations don't support CR anyway (supposedly).
It seems CR could have just offered an adjusted test and conclusions in accordance with the price point difference.
 
#34 ·
Joe,
What do you mean by annual survey? You mean the stats they use to develop their reliability charts for various brands?
Why would anybody try to skew their experience with various products? That makes no sense.
 
#36 · (Edited)
Consumer Reports has two kinds of ratings for automobiles. They have their own internal 'review' of the vehicle... they usually test 2 - 4 vehicles per month.

The other kind is the annual auto issue where they have all the vehicles rated in the various categories. Those results are from those readers or subscribers that return the annual survey (Consumer Reports mails the surveys to subscribers and is available online to their digital subscribers). The results are not based on any Consumer Reports testing, but instead based on the opinions and supposed results reported by readers and subscribers. This is what I don't trust. If a person that returns a survey just doesn't like a car they're likely to say they've had problems. That doesn't mean they actually had any problems... they may have just purchased the wrong car or have buyers remorse. Some are real, some aren't... we have no way to know one way or the other.

I have filled out and returned many Consumer Reports annual surveys. I had a problem with a dishwasher once and got mad at the company that made it (shall remain nameless) so when the survey asked me if I bought a new dishwasher in the last year I answered YES for many years. I gave the brand name I was mad at and filled in the little circles saying I've had nothing but problems with it. It was my way of getting even with that company and my results were included in their reliability ratings... but of course I had provided inaccurate data.

We do know that people have certain expectations and some become self-fulfilling. If you completely de-badge and disguise 100 identical vehicles and divide them into two groups. Tell 50 people to drive the first group and tell them it's a Toyota prototype and tell another 50 people to drive the second group of identical vehicles but tell them it's a Dodge prototype. When you ask the first group about their perception of comfort and quality you will get much higher ratings than those that drove the exact same vehicles but thought they were driving a Dodge (or many other brands). It's a matter of brand perception and human behavior. The same holds true for consumer surveys.

A perfect example just popped into my mind... years ago when Maytag was an independent company (before Whirlpool took over) a long time friend of mine was a top executive with the company. A Maytag washer was generally considered the best washing machine you could buy for over 50 years. They regularly topped the Consumer Reports annual survey in reliability. Maytag also built other brands... including Hotpoint. Maytag built both Maytag brand and Hotpoint branded washing machines on the same assembly line, with the same parts, and exactly the same features... the only difference were the stickers they put on the machines before they left the plant. Unfortunately Hotpoint never did so well on the Consumer Reports surveys and were considered less than reliable. It was nothing more than brand perception because the machines were identical other than the stickers.
 
#37 ·
If I was upset about a particular product I would not think of doing that, I might just not bother filling out anything at all.
Well, everybody is different, it would seem like more bother to me than it's worth.
Still, when I look at their charts, in particular for cars, they seem to express expected problem areas for various brands quite well.
I suppose in a similar fashion folks could 'spoil' True Delta data also, which is a very targeted survey, but a bit more aimed at enthusiasts.
TD claims to have over 80,000 participants, so those who do the CR surveys must constitute quite a large number.
 
#39 ·
Manny J to answer your question. The truck seemed to be running good and all of a sudden i lost all power no acceleration at all...Funny thing though, since i got the truck back it runs even better than before. As i look back the truck did seem a little unresponsive at times...Everything is going ok now....truck was born in 01/12...Same month the Alabama football team won the the national championship......MMMMMMM
 
#40 ·
I suspect that it is due to the "Tighten Fuel Cap" issue. That is the only fuel system issue I have seen repeatedly referenced on this and other forums, and it is the only issue I have had with my RTL so far.

I have been contacted for a number of different ownership surveys about my vehicles over the years, and have done 5 or 6 for the Ridgeline so far. The only issue I have reported on the surveys so far is the "Tighten Fuel Cap" issue, it has popped up several times.

It is little more than an annoyance IMHO, but by failing to address it Honda now has a consumer survey out there telling customers that there is a "fuel system problem" with their truck. That will directly cost them money, because consumers will associate "fuel system problem" with possible major expense, breakdowns, headaches, and the heartbreak of psoriasis. Doesn't matter if its TRUE, only that the customer is now given a negative data point. The damage is done.
 
#41 ·
Joe - we have this same discussion each time the CR versus JD Powers debate fears it's head. Unless it has changed in the past two months, Both companies collect the data that is released to the public through owner surveys. Both are equally prone to the data problems you describe. BUT: CR has larger sample sizes, tracks vehicles each year, and collects far more data points. JD stops following cars after 3 years, CR follows cars much, much longer. I can see no advantage to the JD data for the average consumer who is likely to keep a car 5-6 years because the JD data provides NO information in reliability for more than half the time that person is the owner. Moreover, "real world" experience by owners AND extended warranty companies (who price products based in long term reliability and durability) are almost lock-step with CR ratings. JD ratings are very inconsistent with those of CR and extended warranty companies. JD might be fine for manufacturers, but it isn't necessarily good data for consumers to use in making long-term purchasing decisions. IMO as always. And from one data geek to another... :)
 
#45 ·
JD Power obtains data from several sources including the manufacturers themselves. Some manufacturers provide non-customer specific warranty claim data to JD Power. I am not aware of any public JD Power survey for the automobile industry (opposite of CR).

JD Power does collect information directly from the customer... for example when you receive a call from "Honda" after you buy a vehicle or have one repaired that is usually JD Power calling... not Honda. The data was provided by Honda to JD Power and they follow up on customer satisfaction surveys. The same can be said for most manufacturers.

It is very easy to "stuff" a CR survey... and to be honest that may actually be the majority of the survey results. I don't know of any way you could "stuff" a JD Power survey since it's not a public survey. The customer could give inaccurate info... but that is going to happen.

As far as JD Power only tracking reliability for 3 years... that is what the survey is designed to do. JD Power doesn't undertake these surveys for the public... the customers are the auto manufacturers. Reliability data beyond 3 model years is over very little use other than for the marketing people (they use state registration information to track that data).

I am not saying the CR survey is useless. From a manufacturer perspective the monthly reviews by CR mean a whole lot more than the survey, but every manufacturer would obviously prefer to do well on the survey... but at the same time they realize that it's more about brand perception than anything else and there are huge margins of error in that survey.

I was thinking about this last night... I used the Maytag / Hotpoint as an example when I should have used Chevy / GMC trucks as a better example. For many decades the two trucks were exactly the same other than the badges (and some minor seat trim, etc.). Today GM has attempted to slightly widen the gap between the two trucks, but they probably still share over 95% of the same parts. But even when the two trucks were essentially identical (built on the same assembly line, by the same people, with the same parts, intermixed, etc.) they got significantly different results in the CR annual survey. People had the perception that a GMC truck was 'tougher' or had a 'bigger frame' but the Chevy rode 'smoother'. It's just how people work.
 
#42 ·
I agree with Uncle Festus. I'll bet those are due to the Tighten Fuel Cap alert.
 
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