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Discussion over Never changing the VTF fluids...

16K views 74 replies 21 participants last post by  ptd 
#1 ·
Ok let's start a discussion,

What would theoretically be the damage if never changing the VTM fluid? It's not like other trucks we've owned that we got the transfur case fluid changed every 20K and lets face it, some dont have the coin to do it. I know its bad ju ju to never change the "other" fluids besides oil. But whats it hurting? Its a closed pressured system, so why the change?

I know Im opening a can of worms but Your thoughts. Remember that this truck isnt my dad's old dodge that saw nothing but new gas and oil but after 100k some of us just want to know what the deal is with the vtm change ever 15k and i guess if the "what if" factor. :act030:
 
#3 ·
See what i mean... idk either..
" I know im not a smart man jenny but i know what clean is.." :act030:
 
#5 ·
I consider the mfg maintenance recommendation and figure $25 for a gallon of VTM-4 fluid that I change myself is cheap insurance on a $4000+ part.

Furthermore, in normal service, the rear diff fluid gets changed at 15k and then every 30k miles... not every 15k as you posted. For me that equates to a change at 15 months and then another change 2.5 years later.

Remember too that your dad's old Dodge wasn't full time AWD with VSA either. At best it was part time 4wd. Ask him what components would have to be replaced if you left 4wd engaged all the time. ;)

Now if you really want to know how long you can leave the fluid unchanged, send off regular samples to Blackstone for analysis.
 
#6 · (Edited)
Lots of metal particles in the purple stuff from normal driving. I have changed it 4 times so far and only had some sludge metal on the magnetic drain plug once. 2 weeks ago I did a drain and fill and put a high power magnet in the old Vtm4 fluid and got very little metal sludge on the magnet. I'm guessing that is the reason for the 15k changes, The rear axle is different from everything we know about 4x4 systems
 
#7 ·
The damage would be that the clutches would fail and you would have a FWD only truck with poor gas mileage. I don't know of anyone who claims to have any kind of inspection-only test to evaluate used VTM fluid, or the point at which damage begins. There certainly have been reports of failed rear differentials.

KeS
 
#8 ·
Im going to get the service done at 100k but how do i know if the dealer replaced the fluids? what im getting at is i know their are bad dealers out there and i just want to to do a before and after. Try this by putting the date on the oil filter, you will be surprised to see if they change it or not.
 
#9 ·
Just put a dab of paint on the side of the filter. If it's still there, so is the same filter.
You can use dabs of paint on drain plugs, air cleaner housings, belts, and valve covers, etc. to see if they ever get taken off, loosened, etc. when they should .
 
#15 ·
I like that method, we use that on the ship with sharpies.
 
#14 ·
I wonder if it is like transmission fluid? I've got a 02 Accord that has never had the auto transmission fluid changed and it is still going with over 175,000 miles.
Of course when I've checked the fluid it looks just a tad darker than the fresh stuff I have on the shelf. MTC
 
#16 ·
Myself, family or friends have never changed any of my tranny fluids in our honda, acura or toyotas and they shifted just as nice as the day we got them.
I grew up taught never to change the tranny fluid because thicker fluid would help the main seals and keep everything from leaking.. Never knew there was an actual spin and/or cartridge filter inside the tranny housing. :act002:
 
#17 ·
#20 ·
I agree the VTM likely has a low incidence of failure. It is the cost of replacement should it fail that demands regular maintenance. But I don't see the service intervals or cost of the fluid that unreasonable.
 
#22 ·
I think there really is no hard fact of the gearbox failing, which goes to say that that will be the same answer about your question. IMO that gear box is in motion all the time, but the more it is told to engage and the amount of work it actually does when engaged is what will determine if the fluid should be changed or not.
Back to my first post about my son's 02 Accord. I did do a brake fluid flush when I put brakes on it the first of 2012. It had about 150k on her.
Now my RL since it is a newer vehicle and I don't want to have to find out how good the extended warranty is, gets all the recommended fluid changes. Mostlikely I could of escaped the cost of all those fluids but, like what others have said, it is cheap insurance to avoid the warranty issue or replacement cost.
 
#24 ·
I think this all comes down to how you feel about changing the timing belt. The factory calls for a change at 105k miles or at 60k miles if you use the truck to tow constantly. Whether the timing belt will actually stretch, slip or break, causing massive amounts of damage, at a specific mileage is up to interpretation. Some members feel that waiting to do this until 150k+ miles is ok, and that may very well be the case.

I just feel that regular maintenance is good practice. Regularly changing the fluids keeps the expensive parts they lubricate in good working order. Can you stretch those fluid change intervals without any repercussions? Probably. I'm sure there are some RL owners out there that have no idea the truck's rear diff fluid ever needs to be changed because their 1979 Ford never needed it changed. Other owners may never touch the transmission fluid because they owned GM vehicles their whole lives with "sealed" systems. My argument is, as many others have stated, why would you not follow the manufacturer's recommendations when the fluids are such inexpensive insurance against having to replace extremely expensive parts?
 
#25 ·
Personally I see it as a hassle. I am willing to change the fluids if I have reasonable belief that failure to do so will cause damage. Otherwise, I am going to save my money and drive it. I compare this to the spark plug change and valve adjustment. I have not heard anyone say that actual damage has been caused by NOT performing these repairs....but everyone says you MUST do it. Many people say that the VTM fluid must be changed at X amount of miles or the clutches will fail. My question is: is this a suspected failure or "yes, I have seen it". What is the clutch failure based on? If you have seen it, tell me at what mileage....if not, you should give advice "that clutch failure is speculated" NOT "the clutches will fail".

Edit: I should of noted that I am not directing this at Ian...just a general statement to those that site failure, but seem to leave the room when questioned about the mileage.
 
#26 · (Edited)
What would theoretically be the damage if never changing the VTM fluid?
That was the question asked by the OP. That's the question I answered. If you want to ask a different question, suggest you do it in your own thread - or at least don't bitch that people aren't answering YOUR question in this one.

I said "there have been reports". I don't know the mileage, they weren't listed in the reports. Go look at the threads of people reporting lack of rear VTF lockup. If you don't want to do your own research, and your position is that you won't do recommended maintenance without someone doing your research for you - then I guess you aren't going to do any maintenance. Go forth and be joyful instead of posting ill-spelled demands.

KeS
 
#39 · (Edited)
No disrespect to anyone.

I was just making a point that some say the clutches will fail. I am just curious, as the OP might be, at what point have people seen failure. I realize the OP asked for theoretical damage and theoretically, clutch failure is possible...but clutch failure is likely going to happen someday, even with regular fluid changes. So, the statement could be made: "with regular fluid changes, the clutches will fail"...and this would not be a lie. Maybe at 500K or 600K...who knows. You did not say "there have been reports". You actually said "The damage would be that the clutches would fail". I just think we should state that premature clutch failure is speculated unless they have actually seen them fail. And if they have, at what mileage.
 
#27 ·
The problem I see with your (Bethard728) premise is that you are looking to define a fail point with no maintenance. I come from a background where you do preventative maintenance to prevent the fail point from ever occurring. That ensures the likelihood of reliable and predictable operations.

I think we would likely have to have a conversation with Borg Warner about the fluid and failure characteristics of the VTM-4 unit in order to understand the ramifications of not following the recommended maintenance procedures and schedules. I don't expect that to occur. So we are left with the manufacturer's maintenance recommendations as interpreted by the owner.

I don't consider a $25 expense once every 30 months or so to be a problem or inconvenience personally. Especially not for the reliable function and utility I get as a by-product.
 
#28 ·
The problem I see with your (Bethard728) premise is that you are looking to define a fail point with no maintenance. I come from a background where you do preventative maintenance to prevent the fail point from ever occurring. That ensures the likelihood of reliable and predictable operations.

I think we would likely have to have a conversation with Borg Warner about the fluid and failure characteristics of the VTM-4 unit in order to understand the ramifications of not following the recommended maintenance procedures and schedules. I don't expect that to occur. So we are left with the manufacturer's maintenance recommendations as interpreted by the owner.

I don't consider a $25 expense once every 30 months or so to be a problem or inconvenience personally. Especially not for the reliable function and utility I get as a by-product.
Mr Speedlever and I are pilots. We would not even have this discussion if we were talking about maintenance of critical for flight systems.

Sorry but I put my Ridgeline in the same category. I will do everything in my power so it doesn't quit me on a dark night 400 miles from home in the winter. I value my life and those of my passengers and if my RL broke down and I thought it was from my neglecting some area of maintenance, I couldn't live with myself. I want to be absolutely certain that I have do everything that Honda asks in the way of maintenance so I can have "piece of mind".
 
#29 ·
Piece of mind is worth a lot. Anything can be over-analyzed, but in the end it comes down to the fact it is your truck and your money to spend on or not spend, as you desire.
In any case it is better to make an informed decision.
 
#30 ·
It's not that Bethard728's question is not a good one. But as feetdry posted, I simply cannot approach maintenance from the perspective of how long can I push maintenance without consequence. Is is simply not in my mindset. I would be way outside my comfort zone to do so.

Shucks, even using the MM was a major reset for me. ;)
 
#33 ·
Understood. Sounds like we have similar driving characteristics too. Even after 30k miles, the mag plug on the rear diff had very little debris on it. But still, for $25, I'm gonna change it per the MM. ;)
 
#35 ·
The bottom line here is that some are more regular-maintenance-minded than others. Some will feel that they can push fluids and other maintenance for far longer than the recommended manufacturer's intervals and they may be correct. Others follow it religiously and even change certain fluids MORE frequently than recommended. I'm with speed, rollin and the others that don't have the mindset to prolong maintenance. I feel that one should never even test the fluid longevity as to ward against ANY mechanical degredation. You can't completely negate material wear, but you can proactively help guard against it with a constant supply of fresh fluids. Yes, my VTM-4 fluid, tranny fluid and transfer case fluid all pretty much look new when I change them, but you can't judge it completely only by what you are able to see.

When I was younger, I never kept up with the maintenance on my vehicles like it should have been other than oil and filters. Tranny fluid, brake fluid, PS fluid.... all neglected. Never even thought about it. My last vehicle's transmission failed because I didn't change the tranny fluid until it had 110k miles on it. It was BLACK because it was burnt. There was no saving it. Had I performed regular tranny fluid services from the time I bought it at 34k miles, I have no doubt I would have gotten more life out of it. Neglecting to do services also can hurt if you ever try to sell your truck on your own. One of the first things savvy buyers will ask for are the maintenance records. If you don't have them because it hasn't been done, they'll walk away no matter how nice the truck looks. Just food for thought.
 
#36 ·
Ian, you are not alone in that distinction about neglecting fluids in the past. Ah, ignorance is such bliss. (don't ask how i know);)
 
#38 ·
I guess another course of action is to only change it when it looks bad and don't worry about why it suddenly looks bad.

Preventative maintenance can cost some and it can also be very boring if nothing actually goes bad. I can put up with that kind of boredom.
 
G
#43 ·
I have 60k on my 08 RTL. At 60K checkup, dealer said fluid OK, no need to change. I had it changed before at 30K. If the dealer passed up the opportunity to put $100+ in his pocket this last time, I guess it isn't necessary to change it.
 
#48 ·
There is no way anyone, even a dealership service department, can tell that fluid is "ok" simply by looking at it. The VTM-4 fluid should be changed every 30k miles because, as was said, the rear diff assembly is constantly in use. The effectiveness of the VTM-4 fluid diminishes over time with use, so changing it regularly only ensures the clutches are receiving proper lubrication. A gallon of the fluid is about $30 from the dealership and it takes 15 minutes to change with simple hand tools and an oil catch basin. If you drive 15k miles a year, it should only need to be done every two years. It's $30 well spent.
 
#44 ·
Save the customer money and a good chance he will be back. That does not mean it is the right or wrong decision for life of the VTM.
 
#45 ·
Careful. You may have one of those dealers who is not aware the RL has a transfer assembly (separate from the tranny).

You may not do any harm bypassing the fluid maintenance. OTOH, it's pretty cheap insurance to keep fresh fluid in there. It's not like a conventional rear pumpkin that hardly anyone ever changes out the gear oil. This thing is in constant use and those clutches will wear.
 
#46 ·
I have a video (somewhere) of an example of VTM clutch failure. I'm not sure if it's been posted here or not. In the example I saw the VTM unit would only send power to one side. If all clutches fail you simply have no power to either rear wheel.
 
#47 ·
I'd like to see that video Joe.
 
#51 ·
noob question but VTM4 is this just another name for the rear diff ?

what about tranny fluid itself how often to change that

I never changed any oils except for engine oil obviously
I guess I should change the rear diff aka vtm4? (y not just say rear diff so noobs can understand)
 
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