Gas

[DLIT]

Okay, I'm copying/pasting this from one of my motorcycle forums. The dude who posted works in the fuel industry and obviously knows his stuff.

Generic vs Branded gas.
>
> Like the old saying "don't buy gas from a gas station
> that doesn't hold the name of the refinery". The gas
> it self is the same UNTIL it is put into the semi
> truck to be hauled to the gas station. What happens is
> that the actual gas gets a additive injected into
> while it fills the semi. This is where the differences
> start.
>
> Generic is gas such as Speedway, KMart, Wal Mart,
> Sams, Admiral, Clark, Rich, Meijer, and many others
> that aren't list in the next list. The generic gas
> comes from Mobil, and Marathon gas tank terminals but
> again changes with the additives.
>
> BRANDED is Mobil, Marathon, BP (use to be Amoco),
> Sunoco, Shell. Side note, there use to be BP & Amoco.
> BP (British Petrl) bought Amoco (American Oil
> Company).
>
> The govt says that all these oil companies have to add
> "additives". The additives have different chemicals
> but mostly the same. The additives contain fuel milage
> enhancers, cleaners, evironmental crap and other good
> **** that your motor likes. The cleaners are good for
> your motor, duh! However, if the govt says you must
> inject "1" (I don't mean 1 additive I
> mean just 1 as a unit)that's all the generic gas'
> gets. However, the Branded gas inject 3 times that
> amount. This is to ensure that their gas performs
> better than the generic gas. HERE'S WHERE THE GAS
> STARTS GETTING MORE DIFFERENT.
>
> Branded GAS + 3 additive (sometimes ehtynol and
> becoming more normal) = Good GAS
>
> Then you have GAS + 1 additive(generic) + ethynol =
> generic gas. Which brings us to ethynol.
>
> This is something that the govt is pushing onto the
> oil companies. It is acholhol. The oil company such as
> Marathon gets a BIG tax break for using it in their
> generic gas. They get a tax break at the tank
> terminal, and the gas station. Here's the incentive
> for using it. It helps the gas burn MORE therefor
> cleaner. Cleaner means better for the tree huggers.
> Now they don't inj. ethynol into the branded gas.
>
> Now cleaner burn also means cleaner gas tank. Just
> think about it, you can clean stuff with acholhol.
> When the semi's are hauling all branded gas they get a
> type of "non-luster" to the inside of their trailers.
> Then they haul some ethynol inj. gas and from driving
> down the road (splish splash) gets the inside of the
> trailer all clean. Now we have all heard of these guys
> saying, I put that ethynol injected crap gas into my
> "car/truck/bike" and it ****ed it up. The problem is
> that the ethynol has cleaned out the gas tank and all
> that crud and crap has crapped up their gas filter and
> maybe injectors. You also may hear about it drying out
> o-rings and such. I try to use it everyonce and a
> while to keep everything clean and shinny but not all
> time.
>
> Bottom line....
>
> Generic gas gives you less good stuff plus ethynol.
>
> Branded gas gives you 3 times good stuff and no
> ethynol (harder to find with no ethynol)
>
> ****************************
>
> Now to understand what happens with octane now.
>
> NOW that the ehtynol has become almost completely
> involved... So now there isn't even really
> standard
> 87, or 93. There was never 89. 89 is blended at
> the
> pump (where you fill up) with 87 & 93 to make the 87.
>
> But with the ethynol being in almost every gallon now
> a days. The ethynol is 103 octane... so that will
> raise the octane of the product. So now your gas is
> blended at the tank farm as it goes into the semi
> trailer tanker.
>
> For example... our 93 octane
> Ethynol 10% of 103 octane = 11.3
> 93 octane product is 74% of the liquid = 68.82
> 85 octane product is 16% of the liquid = 13.6
> ============================== 93.72 octane or what
> you get at the pump
>
>
> *******************************
>
>
> Now on the buy american oil theory that is most recent
> email going around...
>
> It went somin like this... and is COMPLETE BS
>
>

Nothing is more frustrating than the feeling
> that every time I fill-up the tank, I am sending my
> money to people who are trying to kill me, my family,
> and my friends.
>
>
> The Saudis are boycotting American goods. We should
> return the favor.
>
> An interesting thought is to boycott their GAS. Every
> time you fill up the car, you can avoid putting more
> money into the coffers of Saudi Arabia . Just buy from
> gas companies that don't import their oil from the
> Saudis.
>
> I thought it might be interesting for you to know
> which oil companies are the best to buy gas from and
> which major companies import Middle Eastern oil.
>
> These companies import Middle Eastern oil:
>
> Shell.......................... 205,742,000 barrels
> Chevron/Texaco.........144,332,000 barrels
> Exxon /Mobil..............130,082,000 barrels
> Marathon/Speedway..117,740,000 barrels
> Amoco........................62,231,000 barrels
>
> Citgo Gas comes from South America, from a Dictator
> who hates Americans.
>
> Do the math at $30/barrel, these imports amount to
> over $18 BILLION! (Oil is now $90-$100 a barrel)
>
> Here are some large companies that
> DO NOT import Middle Eastern oil:
>
> Sunoco................ 0 barrels
> Conoco................ 0 barrels
> Sinclair................ 0 barrels
> BP/Phillips.......... 0 barrels
> Hess.................... 0 barrels
> ARC0. .................. 0 barrels
> Also: Pilot, Flying J, Love's, RaceTrac, Valero
>
> All of this information is available from the
> Department of Energy and each is required to state
> where they get their oil and how much they are
> importing.
>
> But to have an impact, we need to reach literally
> millions of gas buyers. It's really simple to do just
> forward this email

>
>
> breathe....
>
> Do you really know where the gas at the pump is coming
> from? You go to your local place for gas. Where is it?
> Let's say a Sam's Club. Where do they get their gas?
> When is the last time you saw a Sam's Club tank farm,
> refinery, and/or tanker truck? You don't. Its generic
> gas that they get at the lowest cost for the day. That
> may be a Marathon loading rack today and a BP the
> next.
>
> Now..again... so Marathon gets some imported oil,
> refines it and stores it in their above ground tank
> farms. Then they sell 10,000 bbls of the gas to Valero
> (who in my area was bought out by Husky Oil in Lima,
> OH) and its shipped thru a pipeline to Joe's Oil &
> Fuel storage. Joe has an agreement with many oil
> companies. But for this 10,000 bbls its got Valero's
> name on it. So Bob's trucking comes in with an order
> for the Valero station on Main St. Picks up a load and
> drops it off at the gas station on Main St. You buy it
> from there thinking you're supporting non-imported oil
> when it actually was refined at Marathon.
>
> This happens everyday. I run about 2 million bbls a
> month thru my facility of about every petroleom
> product out.
>
> The thing is that its all fungible product. Meaning
> they swap back and forth and sell to whomever. BPO
> makes product for themselves and others like Sunoco.
> Marathon makes it for themselves, Valero, Husky, RKA,
> Sunoco. Sunoco makes it for about the same. They all
> make jet fuel for North West Airlines. Mobil does alot
> of the same.
>
> Many of these companies that use to own everything.
> From the drilling rigs, refineries, pipelines, tank
> farms, tanker trucks, and the gas stations have sold
> off. Many of them just own the refineries now. They
> don't want the liabilities of it all anymore. So they
> sold the gas station to Abeeb. The trucks to Joe. The
> tank storage farms and under ground pipelines to other
> companies like mine. And the drilling rigs to Bruce
> Willis so he can drill in space.
>
> The same holes are poked thru the email theory about
> not buying oil from one company. These emails are
> produced by people that don't truely know what is
> going on. I could go on and on and on about the inner
> workings of this stuff that I know. I have been born
> and raised in this world. My dad more or less did the
> same job I did. I even do what his job was and more
> (typicall of today's job cutting). Not too mention I
> have did every dirty job leading to this position.
>
> ********************
>
> Now this is not every bit of info on the subject but a
> desent low down. If you have any questions just let me
> know. I think that makes sense. There are more in's
> and out's to all of this but it's getting kind of
> long.

[ridgerunning]

thanks for the low-down.
Question: can you share some light on "winter gas" vs "summer gas" is there such a difference and does it affect mileage or do we just idle our cars too much in winter?

[DLIT]

I can't, but dude's cool enough, I'll send him the link and he'll register to answer.

[Gas Man]

Originally Posted by ridgerunning

thanks for the low-down.
Question: can you share some light on "winter gas" vs "summer gas" is there such a difference and does it affect mileage or do we just idle our cars too much in winter?

Ok for DLIT...I'm here...

And yes this is my screen name on every forum.

Mostly the issue is the idle of cars in the winter to get those defrosters working and leather seats warm.

However, there is a good deal of difference between winter and summer gas. Granted in the industry we don't call it that.

The first difference and what ultimately differs the 2. Is the RVP. Reid vapor pressure index. This is the amount of vapors that come off the gas when exposed to heat.

Think about this for a moment. You have expierenced this. Think of that plastic swollen CAPPED gas can in the summer. Its expanding! You pull the cap and get a big gasp of gas vapors. The fumes or vapors coming off the gas.

Another example. How many of you in your area have seen the bullitins to not fill up your cars during really hot daytime hours. To avoid excessive vapors being released to the atmosphere. Anybody? Again another example of this RVP.

In april we start to "turn" our tanks. The EPA gives us guildines on the reduction of RVP. The refinery starts to put out lower RVP gas. I wont get into the turning. But will say that spring time April-May is the worse time to buy gas. This is when they are pulling down the tanks and breaking suction on their pumps.

WHEW... should note that I'm talking about refinery tanks and other above ground storage tanks. Pre semi truck, pre- gas station.

Think about draining any tank. Sediment and such is always at the bottom.

Anyway... the summer is not a big deal. Its gas. Go on with life.

However, in the winter, this RVP restriction is lifted and now they can add "other" things. The biggest profit maker for these tank farms where the distributors (read: semi trucks) buy their gas from. We blend butane into the gas. Its a small amount but when you do the math its a big profit. Butane is way cheaper per gallon than gasoline.

This is probably the largest difference between summer & winter gas. Is there a difference in performence? Most likely no. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to do it. And honestly gas is a pretty forgiving product.

A little about myself. I have been woring in the industry for over 12yrs. before that my father worked and retired from the industry. We are in petro transportation industry. The company I work for is one that owns and operates one of the largest independent refined petroleum products pipeline systems in the United States in terms of volumes delivered, with approximately 5,400 miles of pipeline; owns 64 active refined petroleum products terminals (tank farms); operates and maintains approximately 2,400 miles of pipeline under agreements with major oil and chemical companies; owns a major natural gas storage facility in northern California; and markets refined petroleum products in certain of the geographic areas served by its pipeline and terminal operations.

I myself am very active in the Detoilet, Michigan area. I would say 60-75% of all the jet fuel for Detroit Metro International Airport goes thru my facility. Again, I myself work on delievering various products. Anything from 84, 87, 91, 93 octane gasoline, ULSD, HSD, Jet A, BTF Jet, Jet B, JP8, Naphta, Kero, Butane, Propane, and a few other additives. I am responsible for daily operations of my facility, EPA, DOT, complience, PM, Hazwhoper, and First responder duties, emergency tactics and public safety. I control the pipeline facility and operate 500hp pumps. I also must conduct MQC test on the products. Whether that is flash, lpg weathering, octane, rvp, msep, or other test. Its all on me.

My sister facility on site is also one of the largest ditributors of ethynol in Detroit. We do rail car transportation as well.

Do you know now why I go by Gas Man?

Cheers!

Next question?

[csimo]

Regarding the original post... my opinion varies from simple misinformation to total BS. Generic gas has "one" additive? Baloney. The basic additive package required by the EPA is extremely complex.

Only generic gasoline has ethanol? More BS. In many states ALL gasoline regardless of brand has ethanol. By law all gasoline sold in the United States has to contain oxygenates. That means you're going to use MTBE, ETBE, TAME, or ethanol. Most use both MTBE and ethanol. Ethanol is cheap and is not associated with ground water contamination like MTBE.

Virtually all gasoline is EXACTLY the same until loaded on the delivery truck at the terminal. It's called raw gas. It all comes out of the same pipeline and no brand is associated with the product. The differences in additive packages from the very basic generic package required by the EPA, to the most expensive gasoline you can buy is very minimal. Keep in mind that virtually ANYTHING you put in as an additive reduces the BTU content of the end product.

Is there a difference between generic and brand name gasoline? Yes. Is there any evidence that the differences provide any benefit of any kind to your vehicle? No. Can too many additives reduce the life of your fuel system and engine? Absolutely. I know of people that dump cleaners and fuel additives in their tank every time they fill up. Very bad idea. Most of those products are very corrosive and will cause problems. Plugged fuel filters, and fuel injector damage are pretty high on the list.

Will using a brand name gasoline cause problems? No. But it won't help either.

What will help is to use clean, fresh fuel. Does the station have final filters on the pumps that appear to be maintained? Do they seem to pump a lot of gas (more likely to be fresh)? Is it a modern station (modern non-metallic tanks with fillers that prevent water infiltration)? Such things have a LOT more to do with getting good fuel than the brand.

[shovelhd]

Welcome, GasMan. My wife's cousin is a gasoline trader for a regional oil distributor. He spends all day buying and selling gasoline futures and product. Unfortunately, he is one of the reasons that gas prices rise quickly with the market and come down slowly. That's how they make their money. It is what it is.

[TarheelGrad1998]

@csimo - he said 1 "unit" not 1 additive. I think everybody knows there's a long list of stuff in gas and not just gas, a lot of which are regulated by the feds.

But I do agree with you, the station matters a lot more than the brand. I know a guy who owns several gas stations. Man, the stories. The quality of the equipment and mostly the tank are biggest factors. Sediment, rust, and water in the storage tank are the biggest problems.

[csimo]

Originally Posted by TarheelGrad1998

@csimo - he said 1 "unit" not 1 additive. I think everybody knows there's a long list of stuff in gas and not just gas, a lot of which are regulated by the feds.

But I do agree with you, the station matters a lot more than the brand. I know a guy who owns several gas stations. Man, the stories. The quality of the equipment and mostly the tank are biggest factors. Sediment, rust, and water in the storage tank are the biggest problems.

I guess we read differently:

"> Branded GAS + 3 additive (sometimes ehtynol and
> becoming more normal) = Good GAS
>
> Then you have GAS + 1 additive(generic) + ethynol =
> generic gas. Which brings us to ethynol."

Don't see anything about units, but even so... they ALL get one unit if that's what you want to call it. At the terminal the tanker is filled with raw gas and the additive package per the code entered into the system. The difference between generic gas and brand gas is not more of the same additives. The minimums and maximums of the standard additive package is dictated by law... not brand. The brands add other additives... some good, some not so good.

BTW, all testing by manufacturers are done with generic gas. Most name brands have additional additives which are not tested by the manufacturer. The more additives the less power per gallon... this is not something you would want when certifying a vehicle.

[MikeT]

How des one purchase "raw" gas?

[shovelhd]

At the airport Seriously, that's good stuff, avgas.