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Old 07-31-2012, 04:08 PM   #41
WNY PAT
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Re: Please End This

The RL and Pilot 4WD system does indeed work above 18 MPH. I've experienced it in snow myself. The VTM lock does automatically disengage at that speed however.
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Old 07-31-2012, 07:10 PM   #42
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Re: Please End This

Quote:
Originally Posted by WNY PAT View Post
The RL and Pilot 4WD system does indeed work above 18 MPH. I've experienced it in snow myself. The VTM lock does automatically disengage at that speed however.
I certainly hope so, there is more to the 4WD system than just locking the differential.
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Old 08-01-2012, 12:17 AM   #43
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Re: Please End This

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Originally Posted by WNY PAT View Post
The RL and Pilot 4WD system does indeed work above 18 MPH. I've experienced it in snow myself. The VTM lock does automatically disengage at that speed however.
How could you possibly tell if the VTM4 system was active above 18 mph? The only way I could think of would be to get a large stretch of tarmac covered in a similar covering of snow/slush and do a fast drive through a course with the car normally on, and then completely rip out the VTM-4 computer system so that it is completely shut off and repeat the task on a course setup similarly and located adjacently to the first one.

I would not be surprised if the VTM4 was active at higher speeds, although I suspect that it very rapidly shuts off (especially at higher speeds) with any turn in the front wheels, otherwise you would be able to tell that your VTM4 was engaged due to drivetrain binding, and that could get rather dangerous.

The AWD setups in the RL and most crossovers now are intended to get a vehicle going from a poor traction condition, and to help it out when having to start/stop in lousy weather (snow/slush) or go up hills in lousy weather. They are absolutely not setup like Acura's SH-AWD to improve performance and handling at speed. They are also not robust enough to be used like a "normal" pickup with a transfer case that can lock in 4hi or 4 low. The VTM4 will overheat if you leave it on too long, as will the vast majority of the AWD systems in crossovers/suvs out there.

There's nothing wrong with this setup, but I wouldn't go tooling around in the snow at speed thinking that your VTM4 system is going to help you hug the road better, because it won't. VSA may keep you on the road, but the only thing VTM4 might help with is getting you out of the snow bank you slide into when you built up more speed than the available traction could handle.
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Old 08-01-2012, 05:30 AM   #44
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Re: Please End This

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How could you possibly tell if the VTM4 system was active above 18 mph? The only way I could think of would be to get a large stretch of tarmac covered in a similar covering of snow/slush and do a fast drive through a course with the car normally on, and then completely rip out the VTM-4 computer system so that it is completely shut off and repeat the task on a course setup similarly and located adjacently to the first one.

I would not be surprised if the VTM4 was active at higher speeds, although I suspect that it very rapidly shuts off (especially at higher speeds) with any turn in the front wheels, otherwise you would be able to tell that your VTM4 was engaged due to drivetrain binding, and that could get rather dangerous.

The AWD setups in the RL and most crossovers now are intended to get a vehicle going from a poor traction condition, and to help it out when having to start/stop in lousy weather (snow/slush) or go up hills in lousy weather. They are absolutely not setup like Acura's SH-AWD to improve performance and handling at speed. They are also not robust enough to be used like a "normal" pickup with a transfer case that can lock in 4hi or 4 low. The VTM4 will overheat if you leave it on too long, as will the vast majority of the AWD systems in crossovers/suvs out there.

There's nothing wrong with this setup, but I wouldn't go tooling around in the snow at speed thinking that your VTM4 system is going to help you hug the road better, because it won't. VSA may keep you on the road, but the only thing VTM4 might help with is getting you out of the snow bank you slide into when you built up more speed than the available traction could handle.
Your both talking about two different things....VTM4 and VSA....The lock disengages above 18mph ( period ) while the VSA is always active unless turned off. The truck always has AWD...
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Old 08-01-2012, 06:11 AM   #45
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Re: Please End This

Phillyguy - we do have large tarmacs of snow and ice here near Buffalo - they are our roads in the winter. We had an Odyssey before the RL along with our Pilot. I've also had a bunch of FWD cars before as well as AWD and "true" 4WD pickups. You propos that the AWD system in the Pilot/RL is fully disengaged at higher speeds. That is flat out wrong. A lesser percentage of power is certainly being applied to the rear wheels, but once the fronts begin to lose traction, the system absolutely sends more power/torque to the rear again. The system is among the best I've experienced, including comparisons tonthe AWD setting in my previous GMC Sierra and our old Forester.
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Old 08-01-2012, 07:35 AM   #46
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Re: Please End This

WNY Pat is mostly correct. It is fully explained in the Gary Flint article. At cruise, there is no power to the rear wheels. But no matter the speed, if the VTM-4 system senses a difference in rotational speed between the front and rear, it will transfer power to the rear as needed. Remember the RL is basically FWD in this scenario.

This is part of the slip control logic. VSA works in conjunction with VTM-4 for optimal traction and performance... with the limitations we all know (cuts power when using wheel spin to maintain momentum).
**************************************
(snip from the acceleration mode paragraph)
While cruising, all driving torque is delivered by the front wheels in the interests of smoothness, quietness, and fuel efficiency.

2. Slip Control Logic
The second engagement mode uses wheel slippage control logic. If the difference in rotational speed between front and rear wheels rises because of a slippery surface or poor traction at the front of the vehicle, that condition is detected by wheel-speed sensors which are monitored by VTM-4's ECU. In response, the ECU commands an increasing amount of torque for the rear wheels. Torque is proportional to both slip rate and the rate at which the slip rate is increasing. This operation is similar to conventional slip-based all-wheel-drive systems already on the market.
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Last edited by speedlever; 08-01-2012 at 07:39 AM.
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Old 08-01-2012, 07:37 AM   #47
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Re: Please End This

Quote:
Originally Posted by WNY PAT View Post
Phillyguy - we do have large tarmacs of snow and ice here near Buffalo - they are our roads in the winter. We had an Odyssey before the RL along with our Pilot. I've also had a bunch of FWD cars before as well as AWD and "true" 4WD pickups. You propos that the AWD system in the Pilot/RL is fully disengaged at higher speeds. That is flat out wrong. A lesser percentage of power is certainly being applied to the rear wheels, but once the fronts begin to lose traction, the system absolutely sends more power/torque to the rear again. The system is among the best I've experienced, including comparisons tonthe AWD setting in my previous GMC Sierra and our old Forester.
I am not proposing that the VTM4 system shuts off at higher speeds, just pointing out that I think it would be difficult to tell that it is operating at higher speeds since a FWD car or an AWD car will feel the same going in a straight line down the highway.

What I am proposing is that minimally at higher speeds (if not all speeds) the VTM4 system will cut all or nearly all torque to the rear wheels as soon as the slightest bit of steering input is detected in order to prevent any drive line binding.

I am also not very clear on what a system like VTM4 is really going to do to assist the driver on the highway moving along at highway speeds. It may reduce some torque applied to the front wheels during passing, which would free up some traction for steering purposes, if the system doesn't shut off when steering input is detected. Likewise when entering a turn, losing traction, and regaining traction it may help in righting the truck, if the system doesn't shut off when steering input is detected.

I have played around in multiple Hyundai/Kia vehicles which use the BorgWarner iTM3e system, and my very unscientific tests with locking/unlocking the AWD and turning upwards onto a hill in wet conditions always results in wheel spin, which I interpret to mean the car's computer is extremely conservative and shuts down AWD when steering input is detected. The iTM3e system is fairly similar to VTM4, BorgWarner makes both systems, the iTM3e doesn't have the funky rear diff though. The programming controlling them could certainly be very very different though.
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Old 08-01-2012, 03:14 PM   #48
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Re: Please End This

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I'm not gonna get my hopes up for it. I say just kill it. don't build a new one, it will only be a huge disappointing failure.
Remember, only a Honda's a Honda!
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Old 11-21-2012, 10:32 AM   #49
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Re: Please End This

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In my opinion they got it right the first time around. In the unlikely event that I ever wear mine out I will happily buy another even if it is a virtual clone of the original.

I would prefer they changed a few of the electronic doodads and fixed the transmission cooler issue but those things don't require a redesign of the truck.
It doesn't seem likely that any major changes are going to happen anyway. Those of us who are satisfied will buy again and those who are not will migrate to something else. That's just the way the market works.
What's this about the transmission cooler? Is it something we all have to worry about or is it on older RLs?
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Old 11-21-2012, 11:24 AM   #50
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Re: Please End This

This is referring to a design problem that affects other mfgs besides Honda and has to do with using a steel Belleville washer that rusts over time and can cause failure of the tranny.

Check out some of the threads about it. It's nothing that concerns you now, but will be something you will want to watch down the road a few years.

Here are a couple of threads to get you started:
http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/f...t=39103&page=5

http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/f...ad.php?t=44590
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