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Old 12-25-2012, 09:23 AM   #31
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Re: Follow the MM for Oil Change - Debate goes on

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Originally Posted by csimo View Post
To be honest I think the dealer is probably the very WORST place you can have your oil changed.

A dealer does not use a mechanic to change your oil. It's just some "tech" they hired that has little or no training or supervision. Any mechanic working for time wouldn't do an oil change (or they would quit the next day). I have audited dealers (not Honda) and can tell you that a significant percentage of cars in for an oil change are just run thru the car wash and the dipstick checked... no oil changed.

There are no system wide processes that dealers are required to follow. I'm not a fan of Jiffy Lube or other quick lube places, but at least they have policies and procedures that employees are supposed to follow. Normally at such places there are at least 2 people involved in the process and both would have to want to screw you over. It does happen.

The oil you get at such places is very, very low end bulk oil. Most dealers (Honda included) buy the cheapest bulk oil they can find (no they don't use Honda oil). There's no telling what you get. Jiffy Lube uses Pennzoil, but just because the bulk oil they use is Pennzoil doesn't mean it's the same quality as the Pennzoil you would buy off the shelf. There's a reason that dealers and quick lube places still recommend 3,000 mile oil changes... because they use the absolute cheapest junk oil they can buy and slap on a can that barely qualifies as an oil filter.

At least at most quick lube places you can watch what's happening to your car. At the dealer the kid drives around the back to the lube bay (which is usually where you can't see it... on purpose) and you have no idea what (if anything) was done to your car.

As for trusting the Maintenance Minder. If you use a good quality oil and filter I'm fully confident that you'll get good results (I've followed the MM on my truck for 160,000 miles). But if you use junk oil and filters then I wouldn't expect you to get very good results.

I normally change my own oil. I have a Fumoto valve which helps, but it normally takes me less than 10 minutes. You don't have to jack up the vehicle at all (just turn the front wheels hard right and you have perfect access to the oil filter). When I do get lazy I take it to Walmart... BUT I supply both the oil and filter, and they only charge me $10 labor. I notice that they do have pretty good process control... everything is checked by at least 2 people.

Never trust a dealer, quick oil change, or anywhere else to do your oil changes unless you know what oil and filter you're getting... and watch them to make sure they do the work.
My dealer uses honda oil and filters. I to follow the maintenance minder. If it doesn't work why is it there?
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Old 12-25-2012, 09:37 AM   #32
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Re: Follow the MM for Oil Change - Debate goes on

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My dealer uses honda oil and filters. I to follow the maintenance minder. If it doesn't work why is it there?
What is your question? The MM?

Regarding Honda filters... the A02 filters are just rebadged Frams. In particular, the Honda A02 filter is a cheaply made filter with cardboard endcaps. Not recommended.

In contrast, the Honda A01 filter is made by Filtech and is a quality filter. So if you use Honda to do your service, insist on the A01 filter.
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Old 12-25-2012, 02:38 PM   #33
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Re: Follow the MM for Oil Change - Debate goes on

For the ones that don't drive enough per year I wonder what the equivalent of say, keeping a car in idle mode for 30 min, would be in miles driven, since the engine is running.

Any thoughts on this?
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Old 12-25-2012, 03:34 PM   #34
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Re: Follow the MM for Oil Change - Debate goes on

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For the ones that don't drive enough per year I wonder what the equivalent of say, keeping a car in idle mode for 30 min, would be in miles driven, since the engine is running.

Any thoughts on this?
I know on diesel engines it's about 1 hour of idle equals about 25 miles of driving time. That's why filter changes are miles, hours, fuel used, or time, whichever comes first.
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Old 12-25-2012, 05:08 PM   #35
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Re: Follow the MM for Oil Change - Debate goes on

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I know on diesel engines it's about 1 hour of idle equals about 25 miles of driving time. That's why filter changes are miles, hours, fuel used, or time, whichever comes first.
Great thanks for sharing that. Maybe the ones that don't drive much could idle the engine and take that in to account for the oil changes.
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Old 12-25-2012, 05:44 PM   #36
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Re: Follow the MM for Oil Change - Debate goes on

My mechanic lets me hang out with him while he is working on my cars!
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Old 12-25-2012, 07:47 PM   #37
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Re: Follow the MM for Oil Change - Debate goes on

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I know on diesel engines it's about 1 hour of idle equals about 25 miles of driving time. That's why filter changes are miles, hours, fuel used, or time, whichever comes first.
Diesels idle much, much leaner than gasoline engines. A diesel engine can idle with a air to fuel ratio as lean as 100:1, but with a gasoline engine we're pretty much stuck with stoich (14.7:1). GDI offers an opportunity to run out of stoich but when running gasoline at even 16:1 results in very high EGT's that things start to melt and self-destruct.
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Old 12-25-2012, 07:56 PM   #38
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Re: Follow the MM for Oil Change - Debate goes on

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Originally Posted by Timberdog View Post
My dealer uses honda oil and filters. I to follow the maintenance minder. If it doesn't work why is it there?
I don't think I said not to follow the Maintenance Minder... on the contrary I believe you should follow it, BUT that means you need to use quality products. It's your obligation to find out if the oil being used API Certified and the proper viscosity, and that a quality filter is being used.

Just because you have your oil changed at a Honda dealership doesn't mean much of anything. Honda doesn't make oil but they do offer oil with their brand on it. I can't say what your dealer does, but I've been in hundreds or maybe even thousands of dealers and I'd say well over 99% use bulk oil. They're businesses just like the instant lube places and whoever buys the oil usually has no idea about any requirements other than the cheapest price they can find.

As for oil filters... Honda has one I'd use without hesitation, but they also have one that is plain junk.
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Old 12-25-2012, 09:44 PM   #39
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Re: Follow the MM for Oil Change - Debate goes on

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Diesels idle much, much leaner than gasoline engines. A diesel engine can idle with a air to fuel ratio as lean as 100:1, but with a gasoline engine we're pretty much stuck with stoich (14.7:1). GDI offers an opportunity to run out of stoich but when running gasoline at even 16:1 results in very high EGT's that things start to melt and self-destruct.
What does this mean Joe? Are you saying that we should avoid idling gasoline engines because it's not worth it or it can be very harmful?
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Old 12-25-2012, 10:48 PM   #40
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Re: Follow the MM for Oil Change - Debate goes on

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What does this mean Joe? Are you saying that we should avoid idling gasoline engines because it's not worth it or it can be very harmful?
I was just pointing out that some people like to let their engine idle for long periods of time. Some justify this by noting that it was a common practice for truckers to idle diesel engines for hours and hours. This practice is rapidly being eliminated and is even illegal in some areas.

A diesel can idle for long periods of time without using a lot of fuel. They are very energy efficient at idle. A gasoline engine is not efficient at idle and due to conditions such as cylinder washing of unburned fuel can result in high engine wear at idle.
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