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Old 01-04-2013, 11:49 AM   #12221
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Re: Vote em out!

Quote:
Originally Posted by B43 View Post
You can't assume your net worth would be higher, or that you would have more money to spend on food, because your net expenses would also be higher. Your net ratio would still be the same relative to whatever the market can bear.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. B43, the problem is that it appears you are attempting to overlay you ideology on reality and it isn't working for you. You see, this Keynesian argument pretty died in the late 60's and has been thoroughly discredited.

Were do you think tax money goes???? That it just disappears and is removed from the money supply??? Nope...

Taxes are nothing more than a redistribution of wealth taken from those producing real goods and services, also known as GDP. This wealth redistribution is still part of the money supply and the dollars are spent on goods and services by government employees and associated programs.

In fact, it is also argued that decreased taxes decrease inflation assuming the government isn't incurring massive debts and actually manages itself in a proper fashion. Why?? Because there is only so much food an individual will eat, only so many cars an individual will drive and so on. Therefore savings increases which also has a anti-inflationary affect. Moreover, individuals that own businesses are taxed less and do not need to cover this outlay through increased prices. You can read about this in most any college 101 economics textbook (macroeconomic textbook to be exact).

Oh, but I seem to remember that you don't believe companies consider taxes when establishing financial goals....so this probably doesn't work for you. Just as you believe companies increase wage rates based on taxes even though there is no way to calculate the impact so much so that it is excluded from the COL calculation (that's cost of living).

What does cause inflation...well for one deficits. I will not go into the mechanics of this unless you reply back that you disagree that deficits are inflationary. This is what scares me and there appears to be too many of tax and spend folks out there who believe the Fed can spend all it wants and it won't have any effect on the economy but I guess we can all feel damn good the government is looking out for us and making sure that those who produce goods and services allocate more and more of their money to those who don't.
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Old 01-04-2013, 11:58 AM   #12222
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Re: Vote em out!

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Originally Posted by msmith1965 View Post
Wrong, wrong, wrong. B43, the problem is that it appears you are attempting to overlay you ideology on reality and it isn't working for you. You see, this Keynesian argument pretty died in the late 60's and has been thoroughly discredited.

Were do you think tax money goes???? That it just disappears and is removed from the money supply??? Nope...

Taxes are nothing more than a redistribution of wealth taken from those producing real goods and services, also known as GDP. This wealth redistribution is still part of the money supply and the dollars are spent on goods and services by government employees and associated programs.

In fact, it is also argued that decreased taxes decrease inflation assuming the government isn't incurring massive debts and actually manages itself in a proper fashion. Why?? Because there is only so much food an individual will eat, only so many cars an individual will drive and so on. Therefore savings increases which also has a anti-inflationary affect. Moreover, individuals that own businesses are taxed less and do not need to cover this outlay through increased prices. You can read about this in most any college 101 economics textbook (macroeconomic textbook to be exact).

Oh, but I seem to remember that you don't believe companies consider taxes when establishing financial goals....so this probably doesn't work for you. Just as you believe companies increase wage rates based on taxes even though there is no way to calculate the impact so much so that it is excluded from the COL calculation (that's cost of living).

What does cause inflation...well for one deficits. I will not go into the mechanics of this unless you reply back that you disagree that deficits are inflationary. This is what scares me and there appears to be too many of tax and spend folks out there who believe the Fed can spend all it wants and it won't have any effect on the economy but I guess we can all feel damn good the government is looking out for us and making sure that those who produce goods and services allocate more and more of their money to those who don't.
Wow...somebody paid attention in their economic classes...!
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Old 01-04-2013, 12:02 PM   #12223
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Re: Vote em out!

Quote:
Originally Posted by msmith1965 View Post
Wrong, wrong, wrong. B43, the problem is that it appears you are attempting to overlay you ideology on reality and it isn't working for you. You see, this Keynesian argument pretty died in the late 60's and has been thoroughly discredited.

Were do you think tax money goes???? That it just disappears and is removed from the money supply??? Nope...

Taxes are nothing more than a redistribution of wealth taken from those producing real goods and services, also known as GDP. This wealth redistribution is still part of the money supply and the dollars are spent on goods and services by government employees and associated programs.

In fact, it is also argued that decreased taxes decrease inflation assuming the government isn't incurring massive debts and actually manages itself in a proper fashion. Why?? Because there is only so much food an individual will eat, only so many cars an individual will drive and so on. Therefore savings increases which also has a anti-inflationary affect. Moreover, individuals that own businesses are taxed less and do not need to cover this outlay through increased prices. You can read about this in most any college 101 economics textbook (macroeconomic textbook to be exact).

Oh, but I seem to remember that you don't believe companies consider taxes when establishing financial goals....so this probably doesn't work for you. Just as you believe companies increase wage rates based on taxes even though there is no way to calculate the impact so much so that it is excluded from the COL calculation (that's cost of living).

What does cause inflation...well for one deficits. I will not go into the mechanics of this unless you reply back that you disagree that deficits are inflationary. This is what scares me and there appears to be too many of tax and spend folks out there who believe the Fed can spend all it wants and it won't have any effect on the economy but I guess we can all feel damn good the government is looking out for us and making sure that those who produce goods and services allocate more and more of their money to those who don't.
M, please play nice and go easy on the FACTS. All you are going to do is confuse and agitate poor ole' B.
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Old 01-04-2013, 12:52 PM   #12224
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Re: Vote em out!

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Originally Posted by msmith1965 View Post
Oh, but I seem to remember that you don't believe companies consider taxes when establishing financial goals....
This is part of our problem in here. People's memories aren't very good.
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Old 01-04-2013, 12:58 PM   #12225
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Re: Vote em out!

I believe what this economist says...and I wonder, since some of you seem disappointed with the expiration of the Payroll Tax Holiday (of 2%), would you support Obama if he decides to give a tax credit this year based on the same SS calculation (2% of income up to the income limit of ~$114k)? It's the same effect, but taken from the General Fund instead of from SS.

Or, he could just send everyone a $1,000 check like Bush did, and as the economist below suggests.

Restoring Economic Growth

http://www.brookings.edu/research/pa...ongrowth-baily

The struggles between Congress and President Obama have made it hard to enact even a modest fiscal stimulus, given concerns about the deficit. However, the 10-month extension of the payroll tax cut Obama signed into law on February 22 guarantees workers $1,000 of additional take-home pay for the year, and the legislation also extends unemployment benefits.

If growth remains very weak through 2012, it would be necessary to extend that tax cut into 2013 and if there is a double-dip recession in 2012, then the next president will have to go further by adding additional income support measures. One approach would be to mail a $1,000 tax rebate check to all taxpayers (adjusted for singles or couples and phased out for high-income filers).
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Old 01-04-2013, 01:03 PM   #12226
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Re: Vote em out!

I also found this pretty interesting about the Tea Party (the real one). For those who enjoy history, especially those who think we are repeating it:

The tea party was not based upon being taxed, but being taxed unfairly.

That is how I tell the story of the Boston Tea Party, now that I have read a first-person account of it. While striving to understand my nation's struggles against corporations, in a rare book store I came upon a first edition of "Retrospect of the Boston Tea Party with a Memoir of George R.T. Hewes, a Survivor of the Little Band of Patriots Who Drowned the Tea in Boston Harbor in 1773," and I jumped at the chance to buy it. Because the identities of the Boston Tea Party participants were hidden (other than Samuel Adams) and all were sworn to secrecy for the next 50 years, this account is the only first-person account of the event by a participant that exists. As I read, I began to understand the true causes of the American Revolution.
I learned that the Boston Tea Party resembled in many ways the growing modern-day protests against transnational corporations and small-town efforts to protect themselves from chain-store retailers or factory farms. The Tea Party's participants thought of themselves as protesters against the actions of the multinational East India Company.


Although schoolchildren are usually taught that the American Revolution was a rebellion against "taxation without representation," akin to modern day conservative taxpayer revolts, in fact what led to the revolution was rage against a transnational corporation that, by the 1760s, dominated trade from China to India to the Caribbean, and controlled nearly all commerce to and from North America, with subsidies and special dispensation from the British crown.


Hewes notes: "The [East India] Company received permission to transport tea, free of all duty, from Great Britain to America…" allowing it to wipe out New England-based tea wholesalers and mom-and-pop stores and take over the tea business in all of America. "Hence," wrote, "it was no longer the small vessels of private merchants, who went to vend tea for their own account in the ports of the colonies, but, on the contrary, ships of an enormous burthen, that transported immense quantities of this commodity ... The colonies were now arrived at the decisive moment when they must cast the dye, and determine their course ... "
A pamphlet was circulated through the colonies called The Alarm and signed by an enigmatic "Rusticus." One issue made clear the feelings of colonial Americans about England's largest transnational corporation and its behavior around the world: "Their Conduct in Asia, for some Years past, has given simple Proof, how little they regard the Laws of Nations, the Rights, Liberties, or Lives of Men. They have levied War, excited Rebellions, dethroned lawful Princes, and sacrificed Millions for the Sake of Gain. The Revenues of Mighty Kingdoms have entered their Coffers. And these not being sufficient to glut their Avarice, they have, by the most unparalleled Barbarities, Extortions, and Monopolies, stripped the miserable Inhabitants of their Property, and reduced whole Provinces to Indigence and Ruin. Fifteen hundred Thousands, it is said, perished by Famine in one Year, not because the Earth denied its Fruits; but [because] this Company and their Servants engulfed all the Necessaries of Life, and set them at so high a Price that the poor could not purchase them."
After protesters had turned back the Company's ships in Philadelphia and New York, Hewes writes, "In Boston the general voice declared the time was come to face the storm."


The citizens of the colonies were preparing to throw off one of the corporations that for almost 200 years had determined nearly every aspect of their lives through its economic and political power. They were planning to destroy the goods of the world's largest multinational corporation, intimidate its employees, and face down the guns of the government that supported it.


The queen's corporation
The East India Company's influence had always been pervasive in the colonies. Indeed, it was not the Puritans but the East India Company that founded America. The Puritans traveled to America on ships owned by the East India Company, which had already established the first colony in North America, at Jamestown, in the Company-owned Commonwealth of Virginia, stretching from the Atlantic Ocean to the Mississippi. The commonwealth was named after the "Virgin Queen," Elizabeth, who had chartered the corporation.


Elizabeth was trying to make England a player in the new global trade sparked by the European "discovery" of the Americas. The wealth Spain began extracting from the New World caught the attention of the European powers. In many European countries, particularly Holland and France, consortiums were put together to finance ships to sail the seas. In 1580, Queen Elizabeth became the largest shareholder in The Golden Hind, a ship owned by Sir Francis Drake.
The investment worked out well for Queen Elizabeth. There's no record of exactly how much she made when Drake paid her share of the Hind's dividends to her, but it was undoubtedly vast, since Drake himself and the other minor shareholders all received a 5000 percent return on their investment. Plus, because the queen placed a maximum loss to the initial investors of their investment amount only, it was a low-risk investment (for the investors at least-creditors, such as suppliers of provisions for the voyages or wood for the ships, or employees, for example, would be left unpaid if the venture failed, just as in a modern-day corporation). She was endorsing an investment model that led to the modern limited-liability corporation.
After making a fortune on Drake's expeditions, Elizabeth started looking for a more permanent arrangement. She authorized a group of 218 London merchants and noblemen to form a corporation. The East India Company was born on December 31, 1600.


By the 1760s, the East India Company's power had grown massive and worldwide. However, this rapid expansion, trying to keep ahead of the Dutch trading companies, was a mixed blessing, as the company went deep in debt to support its growth, and by 1770 found itself nearly bankrupt.
The company turned to a strategy that multinational corporations follow to this day: They lobbied for laws that would make it easy for them to put their small-business competitors out of business.
Most of the members of the British government and royalty (including the king) were stockholders in the East India Company, so it was easy to get laws passed in its interests. Among the Company's biggest and most vexing problems were American colonial entrepreneurs, who ran their own small ships to bring tea and other goods directly into America without routing them through Britain or through the Company. Between 1681 and 1773, a series of laws were passed granting the Company monopoly on tea sold in the American colonies and exempting it from tea taxes. Thus, the Company was able to lower its tea prices to undercut the prices of the local importers and the small tea houses in every town in America. But the colonists were unappreciative of their colonies being used as a profit center for the multinational corporation.


Boston's million-dollar tea party
And so, Hewes says, on a cold November evening of 1773, the first of the East India Company's ships of tax-free tea arrived. The next morning, a pamphlet was widely circulated calling on patriots to meet at Faneuil Hall to discuss resistance to the East India Company and its tea. "Things thus appeared to be hastening to a disastrous issue. The people of the country arrived in great numbers, the inhabitants of the town assembled. This assembly, on the 16th of December 1773, was the most numerous ever known, there being more than 2000 from the country present," said Hewes.
The group called for a vote on whether to oppose the landing of the tea. The vote was unanimously affirmative, and it is related by one historian of that scene "that a person disguised after the manner of the Indians, who was in the gallery, shouted at this juncture, the cry of war; and that the meeting dissolved in the twinkling of an eye, and the multitude rushed in a mass to Griffin's wharf."
That night, Hewes dressed as an Indian, blackening his face with coal dust, and joined crowds of other men in hacking apart the chests of tea and throwing them into the harbor. In all, the 342 chests of tea-over 90,000 pounds-thrown overboard that night were enough to make 24 million cups of tea and were valued by the East India Company at 9,659 Pounds Sterling or, in today's currency, just over $1 million.
In response, the British Parliament immediately passed the Boston Port Act stating that the port of Boston would be closed until the citizens of Boston reimbursed the East India Company for the tea they had destroyed. The colonists refused. A year and a half later, the colonists would again state their defiance of the East India Company and Great Britain by taking on British troops in an armed conflict at Lexington and Concord (the "shots heard 'round the world") on April 19, 1775.
That war-finally triggered by a transnational corporation and its government patrons trying to deny American colonists a fair and competitive local marketplace-would end with independence for the colonies.
The revolutionaries had put the East India Company in its place with the Boston Tea Party, and that, they thought, was the end of that. Unfortunately, the Boston Tea Party was not the end; within 150 years, during the so-called Gilded Age, powerful rail, steel, and oil interests would rise up to begin a new form of oligarchy, capturing the newly-formed Republican Party in the 1880s, and have been working to establish a permanent wealthy and ruling class in this country ever since.
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Old 01-04-2013, 03:19 PM   #12227
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Re: Vote em out!

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Originally Posted by msmith1965 View Post
Wrong, wrong, wrong. B43, the problem is that it appears you are attempting to overlay you ideology on reality and it isn't working for you. You see, this Keynesian argument pretty died in the late 60's and has been thoroughly discredited.

Were do you think tax money goes???? That it just disappears and is removed from the money supply??? Nope...

Taxes are nothing more than a redistribution of wealth taken from those producing real goods and services, also known as GDP. This wealth redistribution is still part of the money supply and the dollars are spent on goods and services by government employees and associated programs.

In fact, it is also argued that decreased taxes decrease inflation assuming the government isn't incurring massive debts and actually manages itself in a proper fashion. Why?? Because there is only so much food an individual will eat, only so many cars an individual will drive and so on. Therefore savings increases which also has a anti-inflationary affect. Moreover, individuals that own businesses are taxed less and do not need to cover this outlay through increased prices. You can read about this in most any college 101 economics textbook (macroeconomic textbook to be exact).

Oh, but I seem to remember that you don't believe companies consider taxes when establishing financial goals....so this probably doesn't work for you. Just as you believe companies increase wage rates based on taxes even though there is no way to calculate the impact so much so that it is excluded from the COL calculation (that's cost of living).

What does cause inflation...well for one deficits. I will not go into the mechanics of this unless you reply back that you disagree that deficits are inflationary. This is what scares me and there appears to be too many of tax and spend folks out there who believe the Fed can spend all it wants and it won't have any effect on the economy but I guess we can all feel damn good the government is looking out for us and making sure that those who produce goods and services allocate more and more of their money to those who don't.
Great post M!
+1, hat tip etc.
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Old 01-04-2013, 03:30 PM   #12228
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Re: Vote em out!

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Originally Posted by B43 View Post
I also found this pretty interesting about the Tea Party (the real one). For those who enjoy history, especially those who think we are repeating it:
Yup, and unless the dilettantes in Washington don't get their collective heads out of their nether regions, history may well repeat itself in the form of the 2nd American Revolution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by B43 View Post
The tea party was not based upon being taxed, but being taxed unfairly.
Exactly the basis for our objections about what's presently going on in Washington!
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Old 01-04-2013, 04:07 PM   #12229
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Re: Vote em out!

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Exactly the basis for our objections about what's presently going on in Washington!
Exactly, exactly, exactly….!!!!

That is exactly what we have been saying all along. I think the majority of Americans have no problem of paying their “fair share”. Most of them know that our gov’t needs money to operate, for infrastructure, the military, etc. I don’t think any of us have a problem with that.

I can’t and/or won’t speak for everybody here…but I think the majority of us are all sick of our so-called representatives using the Consititution like toilet paper, spending like a bunch of drunken sailors, thumbing their noses at us when we object, and continuing to proceed in “business as normal” mode…continuing to spend like a bunch of idiots and then, when they go to the well and it is empty, they turn around and ask us for even more money. That is what we are sick of.

But the thing that really gets me personally…they totally hose everything up, come to us with their hands out and, when we object and tell them we don’t want to give them more of our money…somehow WE’RE the problem. Like not wanting to give them any more of our money...especially after they whizz it away on pork projects, for example, or after decades of them stealing our money from the SSA fund…is un-American. BS. What they are doing in Washington…what they are doing to us…what they are doing to this great country of ours…THAT is un-American...!!!!
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Old 01-04-2013, 04:59 PM   #12230
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Re: Vote em out!

On that note.... in the post above.

I see the need to help hurricane Sandy victims, if that was all it was, but this was yet another pork fest. How can the American people not be pissed off enough to eventually march on Washington?
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