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Old 01-29-2013, 09:23 AM   #61
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Re: VTM-4 power transfer

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Originally Posted by zroger73 View Post
At the risk of coming across as childish, I'm going to argue this until I'm blue in the face or it is proven to me otherwise. I'll say again - the primary function of traction control is to brake the wheel with less traction causing a transfer of power to the wheel with more traction. The primary purpose of this function is to get the vehicle moving if one wheel has less traction. There would be no purpose in having traction control if it didn't do actually do something! No traction control system will brake and hold a wheel that is spinning out of control for any length of time, but it will slow it down enough to make the other wheel turn. (And, we all know that properly-functioning brakes are more than capable of preventing a driven wheel from turning even at maximum engine output.) So, why on Earth would the Ridgeline's traction control system as it applies to the front wheels be any different than any other production vehicle manufactured in the last 20 years with traction control be any less capable?
You can say it until you're blue in the face, but that still won't make it true. You are thinking theoretically, not realistically.

Take a look at the following Youtube video. They test the CR-V which fails miserably, but the VTM system would behave very similarly to the VW Passat... EXCEPT the Ridgeline would have passed the one rear wheel test if VTM lock was engaged.


A MDX with SH-AWD would have passed all the tests along with the Subaru, but that's about all.

VSA can't compensate for there being traction on only ONE front wheel from a dead stop. You can put the accelerator to the floor and all you'll get is VSA throttle retard.
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Old 01-29-2013, 09:29 AM   #62
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Re: VTM-4 power transfer

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Originally Posted by csimo View Post
I think you sent me that video a few years ago (or someone sent me a similar one) that I sent to a Honda engineer.

If I remember right the answer I got was that VSA had to be disabled and VTM non-functional for that result to occur.

With VSA enabled it would move due to a combination of two wheels having traction.
Yes, I think I did sent it to you. If you note in the post, the conditions of the test were: VSA - off, VTM-4 lock - on, D1 selected. Both my RL and Pilot performed identically there, but I only videoed the RL. I think it is safe to say that VTM is/was functional.

One other possibility is that the VSA - LSD function could enhance power shift in the rear. But could that be enough on its own to power up that berm when VTM-4 lock could not do it?

I cannot prove it, but I believe the VSA - LSD function in the front was what enabled the RL to finally climb that berm. I could hear ABS action (but that could have been from the rear too). I wish I had videoed from the right side when I enabled VSA and climbed it. That might have been enlightening.
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Old 01-29-2013, 09:38 AM   #63
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Re: VTM-4 power transfer

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Originally Posted by speedlever View Post
Yes, I think I did sent it to you. If you note in the post, the conditions of the test were: VSA - off, VTM-4 lock - on, D1 selected. Both my RL and Pilot performed identically there, but I only videoed the RL. I think it is safe to say that VTM is/was functional.

One other possibility is that the VSA - LSD function could enhance power shift in the rear. But could that be enough on its own to power up that berm when VTM-4 lock could not do it?

I cannot prove it, but I believe the VSA - LSD function in the front was what enabled the RL to finally climb that berm. I could hear ABS action (but that could have been from the rear too). I wish I had videoed from the right side when I enabled VSA and climbed it. That might have been enlightening.
If you were in VTM-4 Lock then the VTM unit is not functioning properly. Both side clutches would be LOCKED and power transmitted to both rear wheels.

I remember being told that exact same thing by a guy named Gary.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that in lock mode both rear wheels will drive... I've done it probably 20 times including once this week due to an ice storm pulling my wife's car up the driveway.
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Old 01-29-2013, 09:50 AM   #64
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Re: VTM-4 power transfer

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Originally Posted by csimo View Post
If you were in VTM-4 Lock then the VTM unit is not functioning properly. Both side clutches would be LOCKED and power transmitted to both rear wheels.

I remember being told that exact same thing by a guy named Gary.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that in lock mode both rear wheels will drive... I've done it probably 20 times including once this week due to an ice storm pulling my wife's car up the driveway.
Then the only thing that I can think of that would fail your 100% certainty test is your statement a few posts up:
"The Ridgeline will move with traction to only one rear wheel (assuming it has enough traction for the given circumstances and no more than 148 lb. ft. of torque is required). "

I simply refuse to believe that both VTM-4 units are at fault. The statistical likelihood of that occurring has to be extremely low. Even MikeT finally got his RL to spin one wheel with VTM-4 lock engaged. That would make 3 separate vehicles with that fault.

How can this be put to the test to make an accurate determination? I wish Gary would participate in this forum. It would be very helpful to shake out issues like this.
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Old 01-29-2013, 09:58 AM   #65
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Re: VTM-4 power transfer

I've seen that video before. It shows the CR-V with both front wheels with no traction - a totally different situation. I'm talking about the ability of a vehicle to transfer power from side-to-side through an open differential, not front-to-rear through a 4WD/AWD system.

Let me give another example: A modest 2003 Chevrolet Impala with traction control. This is a typical, front-wheel-drive design with an open differential. You're at a stop light. One front wheel is on a solid sheet of ice. The other front wheel is on wet pavement. You press the accelerator. Without traction control, the wheel on ice spins and the car doesn't move. With traction control, the system brakes the spinning wheel. Power is the transferred through the open differential to the wheel that is not on ice and the vehicle begins to move forward. Now, if the other wheel with more traction breaks loose and begins to spin, then system will then start cutting power. This is how traction control works. The only exception to this is an early GM design that limited wheel spin, but could not apply brakes and thus did nothing to get the vehicle moving if one wheel had no traction. GM still called this feature "traction control" although that was a very misleading term. This example of the Impala applies to every other vehicle with traction control. VSA/Stabilitrak/RSC/ESC/ESP or whatever another manufacturer calls it always includes traction control. It doesn't matter whether the vehicle is FWD, RWD, 2WD, 4WD, or AWD.

Another example: 2008 Infiniti G35. Rear-wheel drive, open differential. One wheel on drive pavement, one on wet grass. Floor the accelerator. Without traction control, you'll do nothing more than spray grass and dirt everywhere. With traction control, the brake gets applied to the wheel on grass sending power the wheel on pavement (functional feature designed to get you moving). That wheel will spin momentarily as the system begins reducing engine power to limit both wheels from spinning (safety feature designed to limit tire and differential damage), but the vehicle starts moving - being propelled primarily by the one rear wheel with traction.
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Old 01-29-2013, 10:16 AM   #66
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Re: VTM-4 power transfer

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Originally Posted by speedlever View Post
Then the only thing that I can think of that would fail your 100% certainty test is your statement a few posts up:
"The Ridgeline will move with traction to only one rear wheel (assuming it has enough traction for the given circumstances and no more than 148 lb. ft. of torque is required). "

I simply refuse to believe that both VTM-4 units are at fault. The statistical likelihood of that occurring has to be extremely low. Even MikeT finally got his RL to spin one wheel with VTM-4 lock engaged. That would make 3 separate vehicles with that fault.

How can this be put to the test to make an accurate determination? I wish Gary would participate in this forum. It would be very helpful to shake out issues like this.
I think the right rear wheel in your video required more than 148lb ft to drive the vehicle. You were at the mechanical or electrical limits of the VTM for one driven wheel.

But if you are saying you were able to go up the berm after the VSA was engaged, then there must be some brake tq distrubution going on or the vsa somehow allows the VTM to distribute more tq to one wheel.
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Old 01-29-2013, 11:18 AM   #67
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Re: VTM-4 power transfer

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Originally Posted by csimo View Post
You couldn't floor it. VSA would retard the throttle to the point the truck won't move. You can push on the accelerator all you want and you won't get anything. Try it!
Well it does retard the throttle a bit it doesn't as much as you say it does. Or at least in my ridgeline. I can drive up snowy hills and it will still move. I can definitely feel the throttle being pulled back but it still moves. I drove up a big snowy hill the other day no problem with vsa on. In yellowknife its all snow. I never turn vsa off here. Never had to. Unless I'm trying to have a little fun. Maybe you should try it!
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Old 01-29-2013, 11:53 AM   #68
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Re: VTM-4 power transfer

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Originally Posted by Apex View Post
I think the right rear wheel in your video required more than 148lb ft to drive the vehicle. You were at the mechanical or electrical limits of the VTM for one driven wheel.

But if you are saying you were able to go up the berm after the VSA was engaged, then there must be some brake tq distrubution going on or the vsa somehow allows the VTM to distribute more tq to one wheel.
Im with Apex on this. I think you hit you torque limit on the VTM clutches. Then when you re-engaged the VSA, that allowed a brake to be applied to your front wheen that had no traction. Then, the power was transfered to the front wheel that had traction. It makes perfect sense to me anyway. The only problem is this goes against Csimo's logic.
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Old 01-29-2013, 12:17 PM   #69
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Re: VTM-4 power transfer

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Originally Posted by zroger73 View Post
I've seen that video before. It shows the CR-V with both front wheels with no traction - a totally different situation. I'm talking about the ability of a vehicle to transfer power from side-to-side through an open differential, not front-to-rear through a 4WD/AWD system.
Please read what I posted... you can IGNORE the CR-V. The Passat did essentially the same thing the Ridgeline would do... except the Ridgeline would pass the single rear wheel test if the VTM Lock were engaged.

This is my last post on this subject. This has been demonstrated to hundreds of ROC members and explained to them in person. Believe anything you choose.
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Old 01-29-2013, 12:32 PM   #70
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Re: VTM-4 power transfer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apex View Post
I think the right rear wheel in your video required more than 148lb ft to drive the vehicle. You were at the mechanical or electrical limits of the VTM for one driven wheel.

But if you are saying you were able to go up the berm after the VSA was engaged, then there must be some brake tq distrubution going on or the vsa somehow allows the VTM to distribute more tq to one wheel.
This is fine except that it's hard for me to believe that I put that much power into the system such that I exceeded the torque limit on the clutch. The RL moved slightly forward and then sagged back and one tire per axle spun.

You can see in the video how little power I was using.
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