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Follow the MM for Oil Change - Debate goes on

6K views 59 replies 17 participants last post by  rollinhonda 
#1 · (Edited)
here is an interesting albeit long story

As we have several CRVs here is another POV, this time from a "MasterHondaTech"

 
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#2 ·
After just reading 4 pages out of the 40 pages on that thread I can tell you that if the dealer used the A02 oil filters, that could be part of the issue if 8k plus oil intervals were done with dyno oil.
 
#3 ·
Without reading much of the story, I would say the guy may have a good case for Honda to pay for all of the repairs.
If the MM is what Honda says to use for oil change intervals and that interval was 9 to 10 thousand miles, but the oil didn't make it that long then Honda should have to pay up.
If he used the correct type and weight of oil and he is now being told his OCI was too long that is what I would be thinking, Honda should pay up.
 
#6 · (Edited)
At least there is hope, since most of the work was done at the dealer, imagine if it was not done there.

I have seen videos on you tube about quick oil change services where they did not even changed the oil and the filter, you need only 3 of those to cause some damage. I have to say I have taken mine there and they do a great job for me, with my Ford, rear Diff, tranny fluid and one oil change.



The follow up
 
#8 ·
At least there is hope, since most of the work was done at the dealer, imagine if it was not done there.
To be honest I think the dealer is probably the very WORST place you can have your oil changed.

A dealer does not use a mechanic to change your oil. It's just some "tech" they hired that has little or no training or supervision. Any mechanic working for time wouldn't do an oil change (or they would quit the next day). I have audited dealers (not Honda) and can tell you that a significant percentage of cars in for an oil change are just run thru the car wash and the dipstick checked... no oil changed.

There are no system wide processes that dealers are required to follow. I'm not a fan of Jiffy Lube or other quick lube places, but at least they have policies and procedures that employees are supposed to follow. Normally at such places there are at least 2 people involved in the process and both would have to want to screw you over. It does happen.

The oil you get at such places is very, very low end bulk oil. Most dealers (Honda included) buy the cheapest bulk oil they can find (no they don't use Honda oil). There's no telling what you get. Jiffy Lube uses Pennzoil, but just because the bulk oil they use is Pennzoil doesn't mean it's the same quality as the Pennzoil you would buy off the shelf. There's a reason that dealers and quick lube places still recommend 3,000 mile oil changes... because they use the absolute cheapest junk oil they can buy and slap on a can that barely qualifies as an oil filter.

At least at most quick lube places you can watch what's happening to your car. At the dealer the kid drives around the back to the lube bay (which is usually where you can't see it... on purpose) and you have no idea what (if anything) was done to your car.

As for trusting the Maintenance Minder. If you use a good quality oil and filter I'm fully confident that you'll get good results (I've followed the MM on my truck for 160,000 miles). But if you use junk oil and filters then I wouldn't expect you to get very good results.

I normally change my own oil. I have a Fumoto valve which helps, but it normally takes me less than 10 minutes. You don't have to jack up the vehicle at all (just turn the front wheels hard right and you have perfect access to the oil filter). When I do get lazy I take it to Walmart... BUT I supply both the oil and filter, and they only charge me $10 labor. I notice that they do have pretty good process control... everything is checked by at least 2 people.

Never trust a dealer, quick oil change, or anywhere else to do your oil changes unless you know what oil and filter you're getting... and watch them to make sure they do the work.
 
#7 ·
That still pisses me off watching that til this day!!! This is why I do all my maintenance myself except very time consuming/difficult things like the timing belt/water pump/etc. And when I go for those I always ask for the stock parts back even if I have been to that same shop for years. Yes they can give me some bogus parts from another car but at least they have to give me something lol.
 
#9 ·
Wow
It's amazing when some places are so busy and under pressure, they do take short cuts and sooner or later we will be victims. That is why it is so important to have a good relationship with a mechanic or place where you really know the people and can trust them, the smallest shop in the smallest town tends to usually be best place to have the work done.
 
#10 ·
One to add to what Joe said about Wal-mart that I noticed in ours. The lube bay is right next to the windows of the cashier and customer waiting room. The lube bay at Sam's club is right in front of the windows to the food court and check out lanes. At least they are that way at the ones here and you can watch what is going on. Our Wal Mart here usually will ask you what oil you want.

As far as the dealer goes, I use to work in a Chrysler dealership in the 70's and 80's. When I first started in the summer time at the ripe old age of 16, I was the oil change guy. No one working on flat rate will ever do oil changes.
 
#11 ·
Again, if you are going to rely on anyone to change your oil/filter, a trusted mechanic being the best, bring your own oil and filter.
 
#13 ·
Interesting discussions, but I take it all with a grain of salt. The OPs original engine may have been at fault, or maybe he drove it like a race car when it was still warming up, or a myriad of other reasons.
It is easy to make assumptions about the kind of oil, the service techs, the weakness of the particular engine, etc. etc.
Hundreds of thousands of good miles have been put on motor vehicles with conventional oil for decades. Were the engines better? The oils were not. Were the mechanics more honest? Who knows?
Have to admit some of my skepticism comes from the linked forum itself, that I think would be more aptly named, Bob the Oily Guy. No offense to the real Bob intended wherever or whatever he is.
 
#14 ·
I've been doing my own oil changes for decades on my non-Honda vehicles, but I had been having the Hondas done at the dealer. Fills me with a certain amount of grim anger to have trusted HONDA to ensure that I was getting good service. The idea that I might have been paying for lower quality bulk oil and crappy filters really chaps my hide.

So here I am with my new Ridge. I can easily change the oil. Is there anything that I have to reset electronically if I do so? How does the MM know that I have actually done an oil change? What level of info do you have to retain to "prove" you have done scheduled maintenance on the truck for warranty purposes?

What about VTM-4, tranny, etc? Do the dealers similarly shaft the customers with the cheapest recycled bear grease they can find, or do they use the real Honda stuff that we PAY for???? :act043:
 
#19 · (Edited)
When you get a code, check it in your manual, it will tell you if something else is needed besides the oil, like A13, B4 etc. Then you just reset, you manual will tell how. Honda is very strict with their fluids, engine oil is the one that is questionable, all others are quality fluids and the only ones you should change in your Honda.

Read some threads, like the B136 and the VTM to learn how to change the fluids, The Tranny is easy, just need to have the right tools.

Here is the MM chart and the AB code thing
http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/showpost.php?p=353134&postcount=111

http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/showpost.php?p=582333&postcount=176
 
#15 ·
Some do some don't. I have read posts on here that some Honda dealers didn't even know that there was a transfer case in the Ridge. Another post said that 90 weight gear oil was put in the VTM. So it's a crap shoot. If you want it done right and know it, you will have to do it yourself.

Your owners manual spells all of it out about the MM. The MM assumes you did all of the services that pop up when YOU reset it.
 
#17 · (Edited)
here is an interesting albeit long story

As we have several CRVs here is another POV, this time from a "MasterHondaTech"
Just read that whole CRV thread, very interesting info from that Master Tech. Only concern I have is this is the internet and everyone is an expert lol. Who knows if he even is a master tech?

According to him, it's just a gimmick system. http://www.hondasuv.com/members/showpost.php?p=489429&postcount=22

Very interesting read. I'll have to research some more online.
 
#18 ·
One thing you can do is check the dip stick before you drive it off the service area, oil should look clear gold color and it should be between the marks not over the top line.

If you bring your filter, put the month and date on it with a sharpie, and take a look at it after the oil change to make sure it was your writing on it, or you can just mark in an area that you are the only one that knows.

I marked my tires one time when I brought one of my other cars to Costco (the front ones with an x) for a rotation. When I got there one tire was in the same place, I knew what to do when I got home, I did not want to bitch at him, cause I knew he was an ass and because I preferred to avoid a confrontation and waiting another hour for them to do it. Sometimes you just need to walk away if it is going to save you time.
 
#20 ·
I worked in the oil industry for 30 years. I never heard anything about bulk oil not meeting all industry requirement for the API service series coding or cheaper in quality. If an oil was SJ, SL, CD, or what ever. The oil in the bulk container met all requirements for that API grade indicated. Now, a dealer might use SL instead of SJ, but then any oil they put in your car would have to met the requirements required by Honda.

I owned lots of vehicles and never had a engine failure do to oil. I have not changed oil in any of my Honda's since 1991 when the oil filter on the Accord was at the back of the engine. An I could not reach it with out putting the car on jack stands or a ramp. I just decided it was easier to take it to the dealer. Then if I did have a problem it was there problem. I still check the dip stick to make sure the oil is new. Other then that I am letting the dealer do it. I did enjoy changing oil in my younger days.
 
#21 ·
I worked in the oil industry for 30 years. I never heard anything about bulk oil not meeting all industry requirement for the API service series coding or cheaper in quality. If an oil was SJ, SL, CD, or what ever. The oil in the bulk container met all requirements for that API grade indicated. Now, a dealer might use SL instead of SJ, but then any oil they put in your car would have to met the requirements required by Honda.
I think you may have misread my posts. Nowhere did I say that a dealer, or quick oil change would use an oil that did not meet current API service ratings.

I also didn't say that any specific oil is different in bulk than in an individual container. For example you can buy Mobil 1 in quart bottles, 5 quart bottles, and 55 gallon containers. It's the same oil.

What I am saying is that when most dealers need to buy a couple of drums of 5w-20 they buy the cheapest stuff they can find. It may have been made by Mobil, Pennziol, etc. but just because Pennzoil made it does NOT mean it's the same as Pennzoil on the shelf. You have no idea what they ordered and to simply say "we use Pennzoil" (just as an example) means nothing. Most oil companies make products that simply meet the very basic minimum standards all the way up to super premium products.

Most of the very low end products don't make it to store shelves. They're basic bulk products not intended to compete with their main line products.
 
#22 ·
The RL was my first vehicle with a MM system, followed it pretty closely. 7,000 miles+ is when the oil change code usally pops. I have stretched it further a few times.

Truck has only had Dino oil. Sitting right around 308,000 miles.

too many variables to make broad statements regarding the MM, mileage between oil changes, Honda dealers, etc.

so far the MM has worked pretty well for me.
 
#23 ·
>> the internet and everyone is an expert lol. Who knows if he even is a master tech?

over on one of the snow powersports forum, there was a handle/nick that represented being a biochemist, uranium splitter, pHD and posted analysis details on fuel tests, with and without additives and spectrometer output.

it did not take long for some of the folks who *actually* attended college (not just to drink and party) and work/-ed in the industry to start commenting on the language used, you see, an english major with always spot another one, just like a lutheran another one...

I read this snowphysicist posts with a dubious eye since the posts contained grammar errors, even when it came to technical language the poster would have used for decades and in the end, it turned out to be some kid, posting from his bedroom, copying information via search engines.

this MHT is a bit of a different animal in that he has posted technically accurate information relating to other details on repairs, not normally in a format that a search engine would return so I give him benefit of doubt at this time and reserve opinion to change evaluation in future.
 
#24 ·
...........and the debate goes on. After over 5 decades of driving and heading toward 3 million miles, this RL is my first foreign vehicle and of course equipped with a maintenance minder. It's a nice gadget but I'm a little old to change what has worked so well for me in the past. Never had an engine failure, always used dino oil and for the last 30 plus years have religiously changed it every 5K along with tire rotations. All other maintenance is preformed as prescribed by the printed maintenance schedule.

It must be agreeing with this RL, as it has not been in the shop except for routine maintenance at 111,000 miles. Oh, I did forget headlight bulbs and brake pads replaced.

If I had been burning up engines or say 30-40 years younger, I might try using it. For me it's invisible.
 
#25 ·
This is my first vehicle with MM, and so far find it quite consistent with what I've done for the last decade, which WAS use syn oil and change it and the filter every 5-6K miles. After several Blackstone analysis have found the oil still serviceable, easily for up to an additional 3K miles. Now I change at the 15% point which puts me right in the 7-7.5K range. I plan to do a Blackstone test again at some point, but I'm really not that concerned.
As far as the other maintenance requirements, the MM is an excellent reminder to make sure those get done in a timely manner also.
Now if we were talking about what I did 20 to 40 years ago, that would be an entirely different story.
 
#26 ·
I always pushed the limits, back when 3k was the thing, sometimes I went to 5k, not knowing it was okay and put 240 k mile on a 4 cyl Toyota than ran great when I sold it. Now that they say 6 k miles I just use synthetic and follow the MM and maybe went over 20% B4 I replaced it but only once. I wish it was a 5k setting, the new Toyotas pop at 4k miles, easier to just change the filter and reset the counter but only if using synthetic
 
#27 · (Edited)
196k miles with heavy tow duty, always just use the MM for engine oil, changes at the dealership or local lube shop, cheapest whatever. Because of the tow duty I do accelerated fluid maintenance on the drivetrain though. Otherwise I'd follow the MM on those too. The MM does register quite lower engine oil maintenance mileage when I'm towing, obviously due to the higher rpms and engine loading.

This is where the average numnut wastes so many dollars only to not keep the vehicle long enough for it to ever matter. The RL can go multiple 100k intervals using only cheap dino engine oil on the MM, but it's your money to save or waste so have at it.

Now on my racecar thats a different story, but for a street car the engine, oil, and filter technology has advanced to the point that you don't need to be following a 1960 thought process any more.
 
#28 ·
Well said teamridgeline! I have a friend setting near 400k (maybe more now) on a 95 cutlass on the cheapest oil or jiffy lube available. Another guy I know went over 500k on a 92 Chevy w/t with a 4.3 on Dino. I have hit north of 300k on a few different vehicles running the cheapest oil at Walmart and the cheapest filters I can find.

The most important part is to simply change the oil....with Dino or syn is not important. IMO that is. I already know an engine can make it over 500k on Dino oil and at that point, the truck is due for replacement.
 
#30 ·
There is no doubt regular maintenance trumps 'brand names' any day of the week, as long as the minimum requirements as stated in the manual are met. I would add know who services your vehicle well if you don't DIY. No sense in increasing risk if it can be avoided.
 
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