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Stuck in 20" snow and ice

8K views 34 replies 13 participants last post by  rdharper 
#1 ·
I had an unfortunate situation this weekend where I got stuck in about 20" of snow and a thin layer of ice underneath. No matter what I tried I could not get it to move. I was trying to pull out a trailer I had that was burried in teh snow. Probably not the best idea I know. I had VTM-4 lock on and VSA off. Should I have had VSA on? I was getting the 2 opposite corners always spinning. I thought VTM-4 lock would lock all 4 wheels. I know I should have read more before I tried this but I did not have the time. I was not impressed at all with the 4 wheel drive system on this truck if this is how it was suppose to operate. Hind sight tells me I should have left the VSA on but I thought I remembered reading somewhere on here that I was suppose to turn it off. With it off I was spinning the 2 wheels with the most slip.

The end of the story was I had to get pulled out with about 100' of tow strap.

Please tell me I was doing something wrong.
 
#3 ·
First, pretty much nothing short of a bulldozer is going to pull anything frozen/buried in 20" of snow with a layer of ice underneath. I think you have any stock truck on the road confused with an Abrahms M1-A1 tank. Even if you didn't have any snow, a sheet of ice would be enough for you not to be able to move a "buried" trailer with even the smallest incline. You might have gotten it out with a Humvee but no stock F150 or Silverado would have been up to the task.

Next, if you had the VTM-4 lock on, it is physically impossible to spin the opposite corners on a Ridgeline as shown in following video. It is a Ridgeline on 4 independent non linked rollers with the VTM-4 lock engaged. The guy who is driving the truck is one of Honda's R&D guys. He was the one who told me it was impossible to spin opposite corners.

http://s101.photobucket.com/albums/...c Meet 2007/?action=view&current=MVI_0589.flv

Here is a little something I threw together a little while ago. It is worth the read.

http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18654
 
#35 ·
Chris;

Thanks for posting all that... excellent info. And as to the system... WOW!
Here I was looking for information on how the differential works... very clear how the whole system, and the "differential", is intended to work. So as soon as I get more than the 10 miles I have on mine... I have a good and fair test for it. One which I only trust my Toyota's to... now. But I'm pretty sure this system will work for my "test", given the way it works. And since I don't have lockers on my Toyota's, in some situations I'm now fairly sure the RT will work better... places in my road where you can spin opposite wheels.. and its go get the tractor time.

Thanks again... excellent info.

Richard
 
#4 ·
I know it was not going to happen but that is besides the point. I did not realize the ice was going to be there until it was too late. Once the truck was on the ice I knew it was not going to be possible to get it out because it was indeed on a slight incline.

When the truck was stuck, I went to 1st gear and pressed the VTM-4 lock button and turned the VSA off. As soon as I took my foot off the brake, the front right and the rear left would just spin. I know I am asking a truck designed for the road to do alot more than it can but at this point it was a lesson in learning how exactly the 4wheel drive system works. I kept the truck in in either 1st or R with the same results. In fact, when it was in 1st with VTM-4 locked it was not speed limited. The motor would rev as fast as I would let it. I thought when it was lock it would limit the speed you could go in first gear?

I am not trying to bash the truck. I love the truck and it has done everything I have asked of it. I am just used to rear wheel drive trucks that you can lock in 4 low. I am just trying to understand how this truck works in situations like this.

I have watched the Gary Flint video from start to finish and it great. It does not explain this situation though.
 
#5 ·
I wish I would have had a video camera. I was able to get out of the truck with it in 1st and VTM-4 lock and somebody else at the wheel and as soon as they would just tap the gas the opposite corners would spin. I kid you not. It was 4 hours of no fun in remote wisconsin while it was snowing on friday night. This was a memory that is burned in my head.

I am concerned that something is wrong with the VTM system on my truck.
 
#6 ·
Are you sure that you had the VTM-4 lock activated? Here is another video of a RL without the VTM-4 lock engaged. The truck will do exactly what you are describing in normal operating mode.

http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16511

The short of it is this. The VTM-4 lock button activates electromagnetic clutches in the rear end of the truck. It is effectively the same thing as a differential lock or positraction. If you were to try to drive your truck in VTM-4 lock mode on dry pavement and turn a tight corner the outside tire would skid because it has to travel farther than the inside tire. VTM-4 lock also sends 70% of the truck's power to the rear wheels.

I'm not quite sure what you are talking about when you mention the revving in 1st gear. Are you saying that you could rev the truck past redline or your throttle would stick and the truck would stay at 3k rpms with your foot off the gas?

As for not getting the trailer unstuck, you shouldn't feel like the truck wasn't performing. I don't know how far you had to drive in 20" snow to get to the trailer but the fact that you made it to the trailer in the first place is a testament to how well your truck performed. How in the world were you able to maneuver the truck well enough in snow that deep to hook up to the trailer?

I couldn't visualize 20" of snow so I went outside with my trusty calibrated measuring device and measured 20" from the ground. 20" is 10" above most of the body of the truck. It is also higher than the entire hub of the wheel. How did you get out of the truck to hook up the trailer? Did you climb out of the window? I bet your muffler made a helluva big steam cloud. :)

I'm acutally encouraged by your post. I didn't think that this truck would even move in 20" of snow. My old Ranger extended cab with it's 4 liter V6 had massive problems in snow that was 14" deep and had a higher ground clearance.

To answer your original questions, yes you were correct to be in VTM-4 lock and yes the VSA should have been turned off and you should have been in 1st gear. You didn't get the trailer out because the conditions you described prohibited moving the trailer.

The reason that I responded in the fashion that did was because of your statement that "I was not impressed at all with the 4 wheel drive system on this truck if this is how it was suppose to operate." Nothing my friend is going to perform well in the scenario that you describe. Let's say that you had a Sliverado with a Z71 package with the biggest V8 Chevy has. You would have still been stuck. My question is this, If you had unhooked the trailer, could you have driven out of that 20" of snow? If the answer is yes, you should be elated with the 4wd system.

If that same Silverado had tried to go in and get the trailer and you had driven by, you would have had to pull him out.

Nothing including a Ridgeline can defy physics. :)
 
#7 ·
OK now I am confused. I"ve only used VTM-4 lock once in snow. When I did I am pretty sure that both rear axle clutches locked. The effect is the same as a mechanical rear locker.
K- If you had diagonal corner wheels spinning something is wrong. Are you sure your PRINDL was in 1st or 2nd? If you are sure you did it correctly something is not right and your dealer needs to do some troubleshooting. Only a defective clutch pack or a wiring/computer problem could produce your symptom.
Good luck and keep us posted.:)
 
#12 ·
The key words here are "from a start." Technically the delay you are seeing is because the driver didn't have his foot on the gas.

If you have your truck in "D" in normal everyday operating mode and take your foot off of the gas, your truck just like any other automatic transmission vehicle will creep forward. It's somewhat hard to describe but automatic transmissions use something called a torque converter. A torque converter is what allows a vehicle to sit at a stoplight and be in gear and not move when you have your foot on the brake. That torque converter is the link in the transmission between the gears and the engine. In most situations is not a solid link between the transmission and the engine. Power is transmitted when the torque converter spins fast enough to create enough hydraulic pressure to transmit power from the engine to the transmission.

When you are cruising at 60 mph, the torque converter locks the transmission to the output (crankshaft) of the engine. This is the only time when there is a "semi" true solid link between the transmission and the engine. This torque converter lock is commonly known as overdrive.

NOW... with all of that said, when the driver in the video has his foot off of the gas, the torque converter is still spinning but not at a fast enough speed to move the truck. That is why you see only one wheel spinning. The rest of the wheels are not holding the truck from not making the front wheel spin. If an automatic transmission did not function in this fashion, your engine would stall every time you came to a stop.

The rest of the wheels only start turning when the engine spins fast enough to produce enough hydraulic pressure in the torque converter to turn them. The reason that all 4 wheels spin at the same time when the driver takes his foot off of the brake when the truck is in VTM-4 is because of the way that the power is redistributed by the transmission.

Here is some suggested reading. I feel that my explanation might be enhanced by the reading the following links:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/automatic-transmission.htm

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/transmission.htm

Automatics and manual transmissions are totally different birds. Automatics are very complex mechanisms. I'm amazed that they even work more than 5 minutes at a time given the number of gizmos that they contain.
 
#11 ·
The VTM-4 light was lit on the dash. The trailer was on a decline so I had gravity working to my advantage. I cleared the trailer off to get rid of the weight. I did get it to move about 3' before I started to spin. This is when I aborted and focused on just trying to get the truck out. I know I was asking the truck to do to much. It was a stupid idea. I had so much snow built up under the truck that it was almost tetering (sp). This is when I antisipated all 4 or atleast the rears to lock. It did not. I put the truck in 1st, pressed the VTM-4 lock and VSA button. Then I tried to slowly creep forward with the same luck, 2 corners spinning. I have never had to use the lock before this. I eventually got out by calling a volunteer fireman who brought out an ambulance that stayed on the road and slowly pulled as I left it in lock and the same two tires spun the whole way.

I am starting to think I have something wrong by what Chris is saying. Like stated, I thought all 4 or the rears would lock. Might be time for a trip to honda. The problem is I do not have an idiot light on so I am not sure they will be able to find something wrong.
 
#14 ·
I had so much snow built up under the truck that it was almost tetering (sp).
Imagine pushing yourself around with your feet whe you are sitting on a kid's bike. You can push yourself around because you have plenty of traction because you can reach the ground. Now imagine yourself sitting on a bicycle that is too big for you. You can't push yourself very well or at all because you can't reach the ground. You essentially have no traction in this situation.

Traction is everything my friend. The fact that you had to use your Ridgeline to plow your way to the trailer didn't help. :eek:
 
#13 · (Edited)
Klink : I did the nearly the same thing .........

As I said, almost the same. Except, no ice under the snow, but the snow was actually deeper.

My driveway is over 700' long and in the middle of ski country. Down near the end of it I have a large lateral turn around area (none of this area of the drive is paved... it's gravel and the turn around leads to the rest of my land which would be considered "off road")). I use a mid-size diesel 4-wd tractor for snow removal. In the turn around area I have accumulated snow that is quite deep (3' plus). My RL will easily drive thru this snow and the drifts around it. By EZ I mean like I'm driving on dry pavement. I touch nothing, just leave it in Drive and motor around. BTW, I'm basically driving off road here. Honestly, no surprise, as I've driven off road in the snow with every 4x4 I've owned for over 35 years. I would expect at least a similar performance from this truck.

Yesterday I decided to bring up my 18' double axle utility trailer. On the bed is 1 ton of wood pellets for my pellet stove and since my first ton is running low, I decided to move my extra ton up to the garage. The total weight of the load is 3400 lbs. (the ton plus 1400 lb. trailer weight). The snow accumulation around the area of the trailer is easily 2' plus. BUT, no ice underneath. I decided, what the hell, I've pulled that trailer out of there in years past with my Dodge Ram 4x4, why not the RL ? If I get stuck, the tractor wil pull me out with nary a wimper. I backed off the driveway thru approx 50' of unplowed snow. My wife guided me to the trailer hitch. I hooked up, disabled VSA, locked VTM-4, dropped the tranny in low (1st gear), and simply drove out of there. Didn't spin a wheel.

You know, I thought nothing of this as I've done this many times over the past years (using a couple different Dodge 4x4's). I was just satisfied that the RL performed as I thought it should.

But then I read your post. I have to believe that your rear differential is not acting as it should (I'm going on the belief that you did everything you said you did). With VTM-4 engaged, the clutch plates in the rear diffy should be locked up solid to the right and left axle shafts and both should spin together. The front diffy is different though. It is a limited slip diff and only 1 wheel would spin at a time. The only locking diff is the rear one and is activated thru the VTM-4 lock button and placing the shifter in 1, 2, or R and speeds less than 18 mph.

I only know that my wife stood by as I pulled my 3400 lbs. of trailer out of its spot (been there since last October), thru at least 50' of snow that was an average of 2' deep. When I got onto the driveway, she jumped in the cab and said "you didn't spin a wheel". I smiled knowingly and said "of course, why do you think I bought this thing ?". In reality, I was relieved. Because if it hadn't, I would have had to endure the dreaded "but your old trucks could always pull that out !".
 
#15 ·
Re: Klink : I did the nearly the same thing .........

As I said, almost the same. Except, no ice under the snow, but the snow was actually deeper.

My driveway is over 700' long and in the middle of ski country. Down near the end of it I have a large lateral turn around area (none of this area of the drive is paved... it's gravel and the turn around leads to the rest of my land which would be considered "off road")). I use a mid-size diesel 4-wd tractor for snow removal. In the turn around area I have accumulated snow that is quite deep (3' plus). My RL will easily drive thru this snow and the drifts around it. By EZ I mean like I'm driving on dry pavement. I touch nothing, just leave it in Drive and motor around. BTW, I'm basically driving off road here. Honestly, no surprise, as I've driven off road in the snow with every 4x4 I've owned for over 35 years. I would expect at least a similar performance from this truck.

Yesterday I decided to bring up my 18' double axle utility trailer. On the bed is 1 ton of wood pellets for my pellet stove and since my first ton is running low, I decided to move my extra ton up to the garage. The total weight of the load is 3400 lbs. (the ton plus 1400 lb. trailer weight). The snow accumulation around the area of the trailer is easily 2' plus. BUT, no ice underneath. I decided, what the hell, I've pulled that trailer out of there in years past with my Dodge Ram 4x4, why not the RL ? If I get stuck, the tractor wil pull me out with nary a wimper. I backed off the driveway thru approx 50' of unplowed snow. My wife guided me to the trailer hitch. I hooked up, disabled VSA, locked VTM-4, dropped the tranny in low (1st gear), and simply drove out of there. Didn't spin a wheel.

You know, I thought nothing of this as I've done this many times over the past years (using a couple different Dodge 4x4's). I was just satisfied that the RL performed as I thought it should.

But then I read your post. I have to believe that your rear differential is not acting as it should (I'm going on the belief that you did everything you said you did). With VTM-4 engaged, the clutch plates in the rear diffy should be locked up solid to the right and left axle shafts and both should spin together. The front diffy is different though. It is a limited slip diff and only 1 wheel would spin at a time. The only locking diff is the rear one and is activated thru the VTM-4 lock button and placing the shifter in 1, 2, or R and speeds less than 18 mph.

I only know that my wife stood by as I pulled my 3400 lbs. of trailer out of its spot (been there since last October), thru at least 50' of snow that was an average of 2' deep. When I got onto the driveway, she jumped in the cab and said "you didn't spin a wheel". I smiled knowingly and said "of course, why do you think I bought this thing ?". In reality, I was relieved. Because if it hadn't, I would have had to endure the dreaded "but your old trucks could always pull that out !".
I am pleasantly surprized by your post. I wouldn't have thought that you would been able to budge the trailer. You have given me renewed respect for the Ridgeline. :)
 
#16 ·
I need to clarify something. After reading pg 66 in the owners manual, I believe the trans temp was too high. My idiot light was on on the dash. So the light on the button and the light on the dash was on. I am assuming that if the trans temp is too high, it must default to not engage the lock. I just took the truck around the neighborhood and found a snow covered road with about 5-6" of snow on it. I pressed the button and VSA and it worked correctly.

Chris, What happens if the trans temp is too hot? Will it no longer lock? Because this is what I think I was experiencing. This afternoon I will post some pictures of where I got stuck.

Keep in mind it took some effort to get the truck to the trailer so I am assuming the trans temp got pretty hot. THe trans temp light never came on though.
 
#17 ·
Chris, What happens if the trans temp is too hot? Will it no longer lock? Because this is what I think I was experiencing. This afternoon I will post some pictures of where I got stuck.
The shop manual states that the duty cycle of the VTM-4 unit is 30 seconds. To me that means that it will operate for up to 30 seconds at a time at full lock for 30 seconds of movement until it decouples if the truck is operated at under 6 mph. VTM-4 lock starts to disengage at 6 mph until it totally uncouples at 18 mph. The shop manual does not elaborate beyond the statement I made about the duty cycle as far as I have read.

I had a conversation with Gary Flint who is the designer of the Ridgeline about this very same subject. Unfortunately I had consumed about 8-10 bottles of beer in a 110 degree parking garage over the course of a couple of hours before we had this discussion. It didn't help that it was about a 3:15 am in the morning :eek: so my memory might be a little blurry. We were discussing the Baja truck at the time. I believe he said that the VTM-4 lock will not function after a certain time period as a failsafe to keep the rear end from self destructing. What period of time that is and whether a warning light will come on are beyond my memory. I think that (Keith) K757, Tom (TMac), Carl (CUinaridge) and MikeT were standing around during that conversation. If one of those guys could chime in and refresh my memory, I would be appreciative. :)

PS. I would love to see the pics of what you were up against. Please do post them. I have about 1" of snow in my front yard. :( I'd like to see what real snow looks like.
 
#18 ·
I have the camera but forgot the cord at work. I will post tomorrow morning. I think you are correct about the duty cycle. It seems that was what it was doing to protect the rear end. It makes complete sense to me. Maybe next weekend I will try it again and see what happens........yeah right. I think I should replace the trans fluid and the rear differential because I am sure its cooked. What else do you think I should look at?

Unfortuately I do not ahve any pictures of the truck stuck. I was soo pissed at the time I forgot I had the camera in the truck. The pictures were from the morning after.
 
#19 ·
I may be wrong on this but I seem to remember that if you shift to say 1 or 2 and engage VTM-4, it doesn't stay activated if you then shift to R. If you tried to drive back and forth the VTM has to be reactivated every time you pass N ot D. At least that is what seems to have happened when I pulled by boat trailer out of the launch slip.
 
#22 ·
I 've had my '08 RTL for 3 weeks now and have had many opportunities to drive in the snow, including this AM. We are pushing 70" so far this year in NH. The Ridge has been excellent so far. About 12 years ago I had an Audi 100 quattro that was the best all wheel drive system I have ever driven. I could literally roll backwards down a slippery hill, dump the clutch and get no wheel spin (glare ice excluded). The Ridge is every bit as good. I will shut off the VSA for pulling out into faster oncoming traffic on very snowy roads as I can get up to speed quicker with out it. We have alot of side roads intersecting with highways with no controlled signals so getting up to speed quickly is essential to not getting rear-ended. Once up to speed I put it back on. I rented a GMC AWD Arcadia for a week before I got the Ridge and there is no comparison. The Arcadia AWD was fighting with itself all the time in snow, front to back, side to side, and the ABS did the same. It was extremely unstable. It also had trouble getting into parking spots without the front wheels jumping. I am very happy with the Ridgeline drive capabilities in snow. The only surprises are good ones.
 
#23 ·
avenger wrote:
The front diffy is different though. It is a limited slip diff and only 1 wheel would spin at a time.
Good explanation on the workings of the VTM-4 Lock. However, the front differential is not a limited slip, it is an open differential. Wheel spin at the front wheels is controlled by the VTM-4 system just as the rears are when not in VTM-4 Lock.
 
#25 ·
avenger wrote:
Good explanation on the workings of the VTM-4 Lock. However, the front differential is not a limited slip, it is an open differential. Wheel spin at the front wheels is controlled by the VTM-4 system just as the rears are when not in VTM-4 Lock.

I thought the VSA would provide a limited slip effect on the differential (via a disc brake), which would cause whatever front wheel with more grip to take over.
 
#27 ·
I thought the VSA would provide a limited slip effect on the differential (via a disc brake), which would cause whatever front wheel with more grip to take over.
You are correct in that assumption avenger. While the effect is similar, it is the brakes doing the work, not the differential.
 
#31 ·
A straight shot is best but there is big tree sitting on the side of the trailer. I have to get around that first.

Going back and forth was not an option. With that much solid ice under the snow, I was lucky to just get it to where the trailer is.

I am going to give it another try this weekend.
 
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