K&N drop in air filter for 2007 RL

[MikeT]

Originally Posted by csimo

Well since K&N says they never found that their filters caused a MAF failure it must be true. Right?

Since K&N says their fiters are better than all others on Earth it must be true. Right?

Your VW dealer knows more than VWoA right? I'm sure that VW would tell you that the failure is due to their poor design and those wonderful K&N filters had absolutely nothing to do with the failures. Right?

So how long have you been selling K&N filters?

Everyone decided to gang up and make up this elaborate story about K&N air filters and MAF sensors, right? We all did this because we randomly picked K&N out of a list of companies and decided to make an example out of them, right?

You're free to believe any or all than K&N tells you, but I don't buy it for a second. Not even a split second.

What's needed here is a huge dose of reality.

Fact: There are three major catagories of air filters used today. Paper, oiled gauze, and foam. All three have their advantages and disadvantages. The fact is that EVERY single auto manufacturer uses and recommends paper filters for a reason. They offer the best overall performance.

Fact: Unless the OEM filter fails to flow enough air to satisfy the ingestion needs of the engine it is not possible for any aftermarket filter to significantly improve performance.

I'm not normally so blunt, so here goes.

I have no affliation K&N.

I do not recommend or caution the use of K&N products.

I have spoken to more than twenty mechanics at four dealers (Audi, Porsche, and VW) and they are not willing to blame K&N. VWoA has refused to comment on this thread except to say they do not recommend the aftermarket intake systems.

Side Note: My OEM VW airfilter has oil in it.

I have gone out of my way to find the data to support YOUR opinion with facts (None of which provided by you); One based on what others have said and not through your own efforts. Your contrite and rude tone says quite a bit about you.

I do not accept an opinion as fact (Even yours). That is why I asked for the ISO 5011 test results from Fram and K&N. K&N offered to meet my request for a direct comparison between the OEM filter and their filter. I am still waiting for the results.

The reference for the Duramax ISO 5011 test was done by someone who admitted to not liking the K&N filter specifically. Anyone can skew the results and I am aware of that so lets see what K&N offers up.

So shut up or put up. Find the definitive proof that K&N, Fram, whomever builds oil / gauze air filters are contaminating and destroying MAF's.

Edited after: Also, please DO NOT use someones OPINION. Find something with a business header that states that an oil / gauze filter caused the MAF to fail. Please do so. Please.

TMAC, I'll say it again, nice choice for a moderator.

[Andy-Montreal]

Originally Posted by MikeT

If you have goop in the engine compartment, I be willing to bet its not from the filter inside the stock airbox.

Another classic Mike! Keep 'em comin'!

One thing to note is how rapidly K & N responded to your request. Most impressive on their part. Please keep us posted of any other findings Mike.

[csimo]

Originally Posted by MikeT

I'm not normally so blunt, so here goes.

I have no affliation K&N.

I do not recommend or caution the use of K&N products.

I have spoken to more than twenty mechanics at four dealers (Audi, Porsche, and VW) and they are not willing to blame K&N. VWoA has refused to comment on this thread except to say they do not recommend the aftermarket intake systems.

I have gone out of my way to find the data to support YOUR opinion with facts (None of which provided by you). One based on what others have said and not through your own efforts. Your contrite and rude tone says quite a bit about you.

I do not accept an opinion as fact (Even yours). That is why I asked for the ISO 5011 test results from Fram and K&N. K&N offered to meet my request for a direct comparison between the OEM filter and their filter. I am still waiting for the results.

The reference for the Duramax ISO 5011 test was done by someone who admitted to not liking the K&N filter specifically. Anyone can skew the results and I am aware of that so lets see what K&N offers up.

So shut up or put up. Find the definitive proof that K&N, Fram, whomever builds oil / gauze air filters are contaminating and destroying MAF's.

Edited after: Also, please DO NOT use someones OPINION. Find something with a business header that states that an oil / gauze filter caused the MAF to fail. Please do so. Please.

I just posted a long response and it went into never never land when I tried to post it. Angry.

Very short answer. I've already posted the TSB info. Not my opinon... just read the manufacturer's opinon.

You posted yourself that the OEM filter is "more than adequate" I belive you said. If so why are you so interested in defending K&N?

I don't think the author of the infamous Duramax ISO 5001 air filter test made any comment regarding his feelings on K&N or any other of the many brands he tested. The test was not about proving or disproving any one brand. He tested many filters... K&N just happened to come in last in filtering efficiency.

Buy and use any filter you choose. I just don't believe in telling people that you can put a magnet in your fuel line, tornado in your intake, or use an oiled gauze filter and get amazing results. It just doesn't exist.

[MikeT]

Typing: CSIMO
Typing: MikeT's response

I just posted a long response and it went into never never land when I tried to post it. Angry. Why?

Very short answer. I've already posted the TSB info. What is the TSB number? I cannot locate a TSB advising against using an oil / gauze filter. Not my opinon... just read the manufacturer's opinon. Whose? VWoNA? Not so my fellow forum member, they would not say that the drop in oil gauze filters were a problem to me, only the aftermarket intake systems

You posted yourself that the OEM filter is "more than adequate" I belive you said. If so why are you so interested in defending K&N? I did write that the OEM filter is more than adequate. Also, I'm not defending anyone or anything. I'm asking for the proof of what you claim.

I don't think the author of the infamous Duramax ISO 5001 air filter test made any comment regarding his feelings on K&N or any other of the many brands he tested. The test was not about proving or disproving any one brand. He tested many filters... K&N just happened to come in last in filtering efficiency. I agree I have mistated myself here, the authors comments were negative regarding oil / gauze filters. They were negative from the start to the end. I will now quote the author “Now that I am not doing the tests and my objectivity is not necessary, let me explain my motivation. The reason I started this crusade was that I was seeing people spend a lot of money on aftermarket filters based on the word of a salesperson or based on the misleading, incomplete or outright deceiving information printed on boxes and in sales literature."

Here's an up to date link:
http://www.duramax-diesel.com/spicer/index.htm

Buy and use any filter you choose. I just don't believe in telling people that you can put a magnet in your fuel line, tornado in your intake, or use an oiled gauze filter and get amazing results. It just doesn't exist

Again with sarcasm and misleading statements:
I have never recommended using magnets, tornado's, or oiled gauze drop in air filters. I also posted my dyno results here and showed that there were no dramatic changes. The reason I have decided to persue this is because I wanted to know why people had bad things to say about the air filters and K&N drop in air filters specifically. Why, because someone (You)that seems to have a respected opinion is very emotional about this issue (You even admitted to not having any experience with the oil / gauze filters). Emotion has no part in fact finding, except for the drive to find the truth through facts (My opinion only).

So I will repeat my challenge. Put the facts up with a report with a letterhead of a company identifying an oil / gauze drop in air filter causing the failure of the MAF.

Until then I will wait for K&N and Fram to respond with the requested data.

[MikeT]

Received an email and a phone call from Sandy / K&N. The email contained the normal company promotion and filter information regarding airflow and filtration. Sandy / K&N called and stated that they have a heavy presence at SEMA and it take a few days for the direct comparison of the OEM Honda Ridgeline filter and the K&N drop in air filter (For the Ridge as well) to be completed. I still haven't heard from Fram after several calls.

[shortspark]

I don't know if these K&N air filters are any good or not but I don't care one way or the other. I'm not paying $49.95 for any air filter, period.

I recently had a used oil analysis conducted and it was interpreted by a highly respected lubrication expert. I have 12500 miles on the truck and the oil checked was Havoline 5w20 which was 9 months and 6500 miles old. The analysis showed a lot of good things I won't go into here but these engines have shown to have a bit of a problem with fuel dilution and although these engines break in slowly (and dilution is part of that), the air filter is usually the suspect.

The bottom line concerning the Ridgeline's air filter was that OEM filters are often too efficient and restrictive. It is best to change air filter every 10000 miles and in this application and change interval, the cheaper Fram was recommended.

BTW, good luck finding a filter, any filter, at your supply house to fit the Ridgeline. I looked all day and finally had to special order it for $18 at AdvanceAuto.

[djeaux]

Just wondering if the words "K&N filter" ought to be banned around here... It seems that if anybody posts something about K&N, Joe (csimo, the Other-Joe) is going to get his BP up. And I don't mean British Petroleum.

It seems to me that if there were a clear pattern of K&N filters fouling MAS or MAF units, then K&N would have been litigated into historical footnote status. This hasn't happened. Citing stuff posted on internet message boards to support the "widespread" MAS/MAF fouling problem is bogus -- anybody familiar with the net knows that complaints are going to be greatly magnified in those venues.

I have never known anyone who has had an MAS/MAF fouling problem attributable to a K&N filter, and I live in the buckle of the redneck belt where every other vehicle has a K&N & Flowmaster set up. (This is a significant argument for avoiding K&N filters & Flowmaster mufflers in & of itself & nobody ever mentions it!) Those who are citing the fouling issue ought to tell us how many people they know personally who have had problems. Citing umpteen posts to some internet board doesn't count as a personal observation. Puh-leeze.

Other-Joe, have you seen dozens of fouled MAS/MAF units? One or two? Any? Please elaborate.

The "prove that K&N didn't cause your known-to-be-inferior VW MAF to fail" argument is a neat trick, though, since it's well nigh impossible to prove a negative. VoA needs to blame the problem on someone else, but the mechanics are indeed the ones who know what's going on. (MikeT wins that point. Sorry Other-Joe.)

I have posted my own experiences with K&N filters here before. Basically, they make your intake sound "cool," if that happens to be your definition of "cool." The sound itself is what a lot of folks equate with the "seat of the pants dyno." I don't think that a marginal increase in airflow is going to make beaucoups horsepower. As far as mpg, based on my personal experience with K&N filters, I suspect the modern ECU simply "learns" there's a little more airflow & compensates by dumping in more fuel to achieve its programmed 02 target measured at the catalytic converter. I have seen longer-term gains in throttle body injected & carburetted engines, but I don't think that's applicable to our trucks & I've seen the same gains by flipping the lid on an air cleaner cover. (Does anybody remember that old trick?)

The upshot is that I don't particularly buy the MAS/MAF fouling argument (assuming a properly oiled filter element, which is a tricky assumption). In the big view, it is probably a statistically insignificant problem. But I also don't see K & N filters producing significant & long-term gains in either power or gas mileage. Why make yourself nervous that you may fall victim to a statistically insignificant failure for nothing?

I do want to respond to the "other" Joe's statement:

The fact is that EVERY single auto manufacturer uses and recommends paper filters for a reason. They offer the best overall performance.

There's another equally valid explanation that requires less research proof. (Think Occam's razor.) And that's simply that paper filters are cheaper & require less user interaction. No cleaning, no oiling, just throw 'em away at the specified interval. Remember, we drive $30K+ vehicles that have dozens of "design features" that are the way they are simply to save the manufacturer from having to buy a 25-cent part instead of a 10-cent part. Our beloved Ridgelines are not designed for optimum performance; they are designed to be reliable transportation for people who don't really know what an air filter is or where it's located. All vehicles are that way except for insanely expensive & utterly unreliable "specialty" cars designed for piston-heads.

Again, I'm not a particular fan of K&N filters. I've used 'em on some vehicles with no ill effects but no particular gain either. They are a PITA to clean & oil properly. As far as any "magic" results from using them, the "other" Joe is absolutely correct. The factory filter is entirely sufficient for the engine as it is designed.

Joe (the other other Joe)

[MikeT]

Originally Posted by djeaux

As far as any "magic" results from using them, the "other" Joe is absolutely correct. The factory filter is entirely sufficient for the engine as it is designed.

Joe (the other other Joe)

Hey dude, I said that too

[Rigeline19]

Just a fact, I had a K&N replacement filter in my Tacoma for 125,000 miles. There were no problems.

[arteegee]

Originally Posted by djeaux

I've seen the same gains by flipping the lid on an air cleaner cover. (Does anybody remember that old trick?)

Yeah, and I have also been in a 3-deuce 421ci '63 Catalina with no aircleaners that backfired thru a carb at 100+ and burned the hood and more. Sounded bitchin' right before that as I recall. And I ran my 'Stang for a while with no filter in the air-cleaner and that was cheap but made me nervous. Ah, the good old days...