K&N Drop In feedback

[djeaux]

I'll just chime in here with an observation I've posted elsewhere: When I last replaced my air filter with a fresh OEM part, my gas mileage went up almost 2 mpg on average.

I have used K&N drop-in filters & I'll differ from Other-Joe's opinion only slightly. First, I noticed that the "immediate" improvement in mpg dropped off over time; I assumed this was the ECU re-learning air flow & compensating by running richer. Second, cleaning a K&N can be a b!tch; over-oiling is very easy to do & that is what you most definitely do NOT want. (As a side note, K&N filter oil stinks like a cheap New Orleans cathouse.) Over-oiling is the cause of all the problems people cite with the K&N filter. Also, Honda cannot legally deny warranty claims based on the use of a K&N filter.

Finally, it's true that a K&N filter can be cleaned & reused. With the above caveat about over-oiling in mind, you have to consider whether you keep vehicles long enough to actually save any money. A million mile guarantee is nice on paper, but by that time, you'll have replaced everything else on the vehicle once or twice...

[arteegee]

Originally Posted by NJ RTX

Let me see if I can put this in to better perspective for some.
It does work for me.
I hope this covers everything

Sounds like the results were in before the install. That's even better than 10 days. Try a Tornado next. Pretty soon you'll be producing gas.

On a serious note, I just hope folks use the search and take advice like this for what it is worth because there are no magic bullets. Spend your money on gas. Use premium if you want more power.

[schwejo]

K&N Air Filters

Just some additional reading on the subject. Something that bothers me a little is that it seems like the K&N when just cleaned passes more and larger size particles then traditional elements and then at some time down the road, presumably due to loading up, it begins to filter better, and then some time later you should clean and re-oil. I wonder how one is able to actually keep it operating properly since over maintaining it is apparently a bad thing and obviously under maintaining isn’t good either, and driving condition have so much to do with how much the filter has to filter.

Been doing a little reading on the benefits of attic fans, and its just interesting that similar debates exist in pretty much every industry. Lets see, do attics suffer more from radiant or convection heat and how to you address each?? Ps- not an attempt to derail anything just an observation that can be very difficult to differentiate engineering from advertising.

[VoicesInMyHead]

[NJ RTX]

Originally Posted by djeaux

I'll just chime in here with an observation I've posted elsewhere: When I last replaced my air filter with a fresh OEM part, my gas mileage went up almost 2 mpg on average.

I have used K&N drop-in filters & I'll differ from Other-Joe's opinion only slightly. First, I noticed that the "immediate" improvement in mpg dropped off over time; I assumed this was the ECU re-learning air flow & compensating by running richer. Second, cleaning a K&N can be a b!tch; over-oiling is very easy to do & that is what you most definitely do NOT want. (As a side note, K&N filter oil stinks like a cheap New Orleans cathouse.) Over-oiling is the cause of all the problems people cite with the K&N filter. Also, Honda cannot legally deny warranty claims based on the use of a K&N filter.

Finally, it's true that a K&N filter can be cleaned & reused. With the above caveat about over-oiling in mind, you have to consider whether you keep vehicles long enough to actually save any money. A million mile guarantee is nice on paper, but by that time, you'll have replaced everything else on the vehicle once or twice...

DJ...you may have picked up on things that I haven't and I can't counter the first point. As far as the K&N oil being as bad as you say, you are correct. I actually use Jim Wolfe Technology oil and K&N approved it a couple of years ago when I called them. I'll take the cleaning issue as personal preference. It's as simple as soaking and blowing it out. The re-oiling should be done on a scale (I use a postage meter). Depending on the filter, you can read up on how many oz of oil to use without it being excessive. The million mile thing is more of a marketing point than anything as we all know that even a Ridgeline won't make it to a million miles.

Originally Posted by arteegee

Sounds like the results were in before the install. That's even better than 10 days. Try a Tornado next. Pretty soon you'll be producing gas.
On a serious note, I just hope folks use the search and take advice like this for what it is worth because there are no magic bullets. Spend your money on gas. Use premium if you want more power.

You are right Artee, the results were in before, but only because I've been using them for so long and always had great results. I did only wait 10 days, but I'll be glad to beat this dead horse some more in a month or so when I put another 2-3000 miles on her.

Originally Posted by schwejo

K&N Air Filters

Just some additional reading on the subject. Something that bothers me a little is that it seems like the K&N when just cleaned passes more and larger size particles then traditional elements and then at some time down the road, presumably due to loading up, it begins to filter better, and then some time later you should clean and re-oil. I wonder how one is able to actually keep it operating properly since over maintaining it is apparently a bad thing and obviously under maintaining isn’t good either, and driving condition have so much to do with how much the filter has to filter.

Been doing a little reading on the benefits of attic fans, and its just interesting that similar debates exist in pretty much every industry. Lets see, do attics suffer more from radiant or convection heat and how to you address each?? Ps- not an attempt to derail anything just an observation that can be very difficult to differentiate engineering from advertising.

No worries on the de-railing. Not many have read enough to understand. let's either close her up or talk about attic fans.

[djeaux]

Originally Posted by NJ RTX

let's either close her up or talk about attic fans.

When I was a kid, everybody down here in the semi-tropics had attic fans. I loved 'em. Of course, now that I'm an old poot, I don't see how we survived without central air...

AFAIK, our attic fan did not have a filter, paper or oiled gauze...

[xridgelinex]

Originally Posted by NJ RTX

DJ...you may have picked up on things that I haven't and I can't counter the first point. As far as the K&N oil being as bad as you say, you are correct. I actually use Jim Wolfe Technology oil and K&N approved it a couple of years ago when I called them. I'll take the cleaning issue as personal preference. It's as simple as soaking and blowing it out. The re-oiling should be done on a scale (I use a postage meter). Depending on the filter, you can read up on how many oz of oil to use without it being excessive. The million mile thing is more of a marketing point than anything as we all know that even a Ridgeline won't make it to a million miles.

.

Even if the K& N were a viable proven option, I still will be ahead in purchasing the OEM ones in both time and money... I don't rack up the miles as others, so as a cost effective measure you would be in the plus.

[NJ RTX]

Originally Posted by djeaux

When I was a kid, everybody down here in the semi-tropics had attic fans. I loved 'em. Of course, now that I'm an old poot, I don't see how we survived without central air...

AFAIK, our attic fan did not have a filter, paper or oiled gauze...

We had a 2' x 2' fan that kept the house cool. Problem was, my old man modded it with a performance chip. It was so powerful, it kept sucking up small children. we tried everything from factory filters to K&N performance filters. There was just nothing that would keep those little buggers from getting sucked in

[csimo]

Originally Posted by NJ RTX

With all due respect...
While I agree that paper will remove dirt to a lower micron, the difference in range (in realistic terms) is negligible, although the report makes the numbers seem large. In this case, the micron ratings seem huge, but the particle size is so small it would pass without any internal damage.

K&N has sold In addition, you keep referring the K&N as oiled gauze which leads me to believe you've never seen one.

I would consider it more like a coated screen

On a last note...K&N has sold millions of these "ineffective filter that should not be used for normal automotive use". Do you think it would be safe to say that the lawsuits from such trash would have put them out of business a long time ago?

Funny you mention 320 cfm at redline as most paper panel filters will allow an average max of 319 cfm of clean air through a clean filter.

The K&N will allow 440 cfm.

This is about how much air the engine can pull and utilize...

There are so many things wrong with your claims that I've delayed in responding so I had more time to address them.

You may not know about particle size, but I do. I do know what causes wear. I've put in thousands of hours of engine testing for auto manufacturers. There is no standard since the goal is constantly moving. There are air filters very effective down to 2 microns, but not for general automotive use. 10 microns is a good number for a pleated paper filter. When you approach 20 micron particles entering the engine you have wear. An oiled gauze filter is very inefficient below 20 microns.

I call them oiled gauze filters because that's the catagory of filter they fall into. I don't care what you call them, it's not a matter of opinion. The OEM filter is pleated paper. Many others are foam filters. You want to flow air go back to an oil bath system. You can call them or consider them pink polkadot filters if you want, but they're oiled gauze filters.

It doesn't matter how many have been sold. They sell a lot of deer whistles, fuel line magnets, tornado vortex systems, forever car polishes, supercharger spark plugs, and other scams. If how many of an item are sold is a criteria for quality then anything GM sells is far superior to any other vehicle. I have no idea about lawsuits... there may be a bunch, maybe none, but either way it has nothing to do with the issue. It's just silly.

CFM... I did the math. The Ridgeline engine displaces 3471 cc's. At 6250 RPM and 83% volumetric efficiency the engine can ingest 318 cfm of air. This is very close to the 320 that Honda told me. The industry standard is about 80% ve but the Honda engine is a little better than standard. I agree with the 83% ve but the industry standard would lower the number to 306. At 100% ve we could inject 383 CFM and I would love it if a piston engine could approach 100% ve.

320 CFM is the realistic and reasonable number to use. As long as the air filter / intake system can flow 320 CFM at minimal restriction no filter in the world will change performance of the engine. That much is an absolute certainty.

The number I was provided for the OEM pleated paper filter was over 700 CFM at < 10 in. H2O pressure differential. I'm not going to spend $2000 to prove it one way or the other, but I trust the source. There will be many Honda engineers at the National Meet in June and you can ask them youself to verify.

You say the K&N will only flow 440 CFM? At what restriction? The number is useless without further definition. I bet it will flow 1000 CFM with enough pressure differential. Maybe more. The number is very low.

The engine doesn't "pull" anything. Air moves from high pressure to lower pressure. The air is being pushed thru the filter from the atmosphere to the lower pressure in the intake runner. The chief engineer for the Ridgeline has made it clear that the throttle body is the restriction of the intake system, not the intake runner or filter.

You can put any filter you want, or no filter at all, and the engine will not ingest more than 320 CFM. A clean OEM air filter can flow much more than 320 CFM without any significant pressure differential. No air filter will change that. What will change is how much dirt is ingested with the air. I absolutely guarantee you that the dirt entering via the air filter is a significant cause of engine wear.

An oiled guaze filter does not allow the engine to ingest any more air than the OEM filter.

An oiled gauze filter does not filter smaller particles as well as the OEM filter.

An oiled gauze filter can not hold as much dirt as the OEM filter and maintain low pressure differential.

An oiled gauze filter does not increase power, or fuel mileage when compared with a clean OEM filter. It simply can't happen. Another old wives tale gone wild.

If you like the sound, and are willing to risk the additional engine wear go for it.

All that and I didn't even address the oil fouling issue. Whew.

[djeaux]

Originally Posted by csimo

The engine doesn't "pull" anything. Air moves from high pressure to lower pressure. The air is being pushed thru the filter from the atmosphere to the lower pressure in the intake runner. The chief engineer for the Ridgeline has made it clear that the throttle body is the restriction of the intake system, not the intake runner or filter.

Thanks, Other-Joe! You have no idea how many hours I have spent trying to explain gas pressure gradients to freshman pre-nursing students. (The same Boyle's Law equation & the concept of gas pressure gradients that help us explain internal combustion engines also helps us explain pulmonary ventilation.) This has always been a pet peeve of mine, so thanks for gracing the ROC with good science!