K&N Drop In feedback

[csimo]

Originally Posted by NJ RTX

Thanks Joe...that's the beauty of the boards. Everyone has opinions...especially on this topic. There are twenty threads about the theoretical plusses and minus' of intake modification. You can't tell me that there will be no difference in performance by intake modification. It may be positive, or it may be negative, but there will be a change. I started building cars 25 years ago. I've worked on everything from bare bones carb engines, early fuel injection, turbo charged and super charged. As neither one of us are engineers, it's safe to safe that neither one of us can decisively predict the outcome of a particular mod without any exact data. In many cases I've worked on trial and error; what made sense in theory made no sense in the application. Sometimes things work even if you don't think they will. I can say this with certainty though, I didn't change my gas...that concept is a little small minded. There was no restriction in the previous filter as it only had 2,000 miles on it. The K&N is a freer flowing filter...period. That point, even you cannot deny. If you think so, try comparing the two side by side. As far as why Honda doesn't use these types of filters? Maybe because they require more maintenance than an ordinary double paper filter and they don't want to take the chance that the common person won't maintain them properly. As far as when the idle change happened, it was when I screwed the last screw down and started her up. I let it idle for about 5 minutes and it started to smooth out. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe you are the only one on this site who knows EXACTLY how the system is engineered. At least you can admit there is an awful lot of controversy over the topic. I started off this thread by saying that certain portions of my findings were my perception and couldn't be backed up by statistical evidence. I can say however, that I've been around cars enough to know a little.

And for those of you thinking about it...the worst case scenario, is that you won't have to buy a new filter for 1 million miles. You simply wash, rinse...repeat. Oh wait, that's wash, rinse and re-oil.

My qualifications, or lack thereof depending on your perspective are posted elsewhere on ROC so I won't rehash that.

My opinions of K&N and similar products are posted elsewhere on ROC and I invite anyone interested to read them. My posts have been sent to the very top people at K&N... rebuttals were promised, but none came to fruition that I know of.

I understand some people like to hear the sound of a modified intake. If that's what they like then I have no problem with it, other than you should choose one that doesn't use an oiled gauze filter. You're inviting problems with those filters regardless of brand. If you have a problem with cylinder scoring, burning oil, etc. I promise that Honda will deny the warranty. Why anyone would take such a chance is beyond my comprehension, but it is a free country.

I also understand that when someone spends money for an aftermarket item they have to feel the money is justified. It's human nature and it's hard to put that aside and be impartial. I've worked on projects that I was sure would work, and did my best to prove that they worked, but I was not being impartial. I understand the situation. I know people wish there were a magic filter, or fuel additive, or the elusive 100 mpg carburetor, and it's not popular to be the one that crushes those dreams.

The facts are there for all to read. My goal is for those who make the choice to use such a product to be aware of the dangers involved and that there really is zero beneift to that choice. The people that make such a choice out of ignorace of the danger are just victims and I hope I can stop them. The ones that know better and still choose such a route can play russian roulette all they want and I don't feel sorry for them.

I've seen claims of higher horsepower, better fuel mileage, smoother idle, lower idle RPM, better shifting of the transmission, and probably a dozen other things. I've seen the same claims for fuel line magnets, intake tornado devices, supercharger spark plugs, pellets you drop into your fuel tank, and a variety of other things. When it comes down to real testing all fail. All of them... every time.

I did investigate the CFM rating of the 3.5L engine at red line, and compare it to what the OEM filter will flow. The absolute truth is that the numbers are so far apart that it is impossible for the OEM air filter to be any factor in performance unless it's dirty. If dirty, the same goes for any filter or any type.

[NJ RTX]

Originally Posted by csimo

My qualifications, or lack thereof depending on your perspective are posted elsewhere on ROC so I won't rehash that.

My opinions of K&N and similar products are posted elsewhere on ROC and I invite anyone interested to read them. My posts have been sent to the very top people at K&N... rebuttals were promised, but none came to fruition that I know of.

I understand some people like to hear the sound of a modified intake. If that's what they like then I have no problem with it, other than you should choose one that doesn't use an oiled gauze filter. You're inviting problems with those filters regardless of brand. If you have a problem with cylinder scoring, burning oil, etc. I promise that Honda will deny the warranty. Why anyone would take such a chance is beyond my comprehension, but it is a free country.

I also understand that when someone spends money for an aftermarket item they have to feel the money is justified. It's human nature and it's hard to put that aside and be impartial. I've worked on projects that I was sure would work, and did my best to prove that they worked, but I was not being impartial. I understand the situation. I know people wish there were a magic filter, or fuel additive, or the elusive 100 mpg carburetor, and it's not popular to be the one that crushes those dreams.

The facts are there for all to read. My goal is for those who make the choice to use such a product to be aware of the dangers involved and that there really is zero beneift to that choice. The people that make such a choice out of ignorace of the danger are just victims and I hope I can stop them. The ones that know better and still choose such a route can play russian roulette all they want and I don't feel sorry for them.

I've seen claims of higher horsepower, better fuel mileage, smoother idle, lower idle RPM, better shifting of the transmission, and probably a dozen other things. I've seen the same claims for fuel line magnets, intake tornado devices, supercharger spark plugs, pellets you drop into your fuel tank, and a variety of other things. When it comes down to real testing all fail. All of them... every time.

I did investigate the CFM rating of the 3.5L engine at red line, and compare it to what the OEM filter will flow. The absolute truth is that the numbers are so far apart that it is impossible for the OEM air filter to be any factor in performance unless it's dirty. If dirty, the same goes for any filter or any type.

As far as qualifications on the matter, you know as much about mine as I do about yours. This is no fuel magnet, performance chip, or fake supercharger we are talking about. Those are for people who get suckered in by false claims...people who maybe don't have allot of knowledge on the topics. That doesn't make them any less of a person, just someone who doesn't know better. I would be curious to know if you have ever tried a quality aftermarket filter or are just held mentally hostage by the fear of what the manufacturers say about them? All of these dramatic statements about the horrors that a simple filter will cause leads me to believe the latter. There are cheap filters out there, but this is not one of them. I am not preaching that this filter will cure cancer, or lead to world peace. I have used them in several different cars...all with better than anticipated results. In fact, I have on more than one occasion gotten more than 33mpg on my 07 Civic SI which is only rated for 32mpg hwy. A feat that I was never able to achieve prior to the installation of the K&N. That was the third success I had with this brand of filter. I will say that these filters do need careful maintenance though. And by the way, there is no noticeable difference in sound so for anyone looking for it, don't let that be the reason for buying one. So please...even with your moderator status, don't belittle this thread, my opinions, or perceived value even if you don't agree. I am simply stating my opinion on the matter based on my results.

[Tucson Ridgeline]

So please...even with your moderator status, don't belittle this thread, my opinions, or perceived value even if you don't agree. I am simply stating my opinion on the matter based on my results.

Amen, Brother!

[csimo]

Originally Posted by NJ RTX

As far as qualifications on the matter, you know as much about mine as I do about yours. This is no fuel magnet, performance chip, or fake supercharger we are talking about. Those are for people who get suckered in by false claims...people who maybe don't have allot of knowledge on the topics. That doesn't make them any less of a person, just someone who doesn't know better. I would be curious to know if you have ever tried a quality aftermarket filter or are just held mentally hostage by the fear of what the manufacturers say about them? All of these dramatic statements about the horrors that a simple filter will cause leads me to believe the latter. There are cheap filters out there, but this is not one of them. I am not preaching that this filter will cure cancer, or lead to world peace. I have used them in several different cars...all with better than anticipated results. In fact, I have on more than one occasion gotten more than 33mpg on my 07 Civic SI which is only rated for 32mpg hwy. A feat that I was never able to achieve prior to the installation of the K&N. That was the third success I had with this brand of filter. I will say that these filters do need careful maintenance though. And by the way, there is no noticeable difference in sound so for anyone looking for it, don't let that be the reason for buying one. So please...even with your moderator status, don't belittle this thread, my opinions, or perceived value even if you don't agree. I am simply stating my opinion on the matter based on my results.

I'm sorry if you feel I'm belittling you... please don't feel that way. I do feel that anyone that buys into the K&N claims is just as foolish as the person that bought the fuel line magnet or the intake vortex.

My status as moderator has absolutely nothing to do with it. Does my status as a moderator eliminate my right to give my opinion? Are the facts changed because I'm a moderator?

I have used aftermarket filters... and have done a fair amount of investigation on them. I've done more work in the area of oil fitlers than air filters.

Here's a good test of various air filters... a good read. I've talked with the author and believe he did his very best to find the truth. It's probably the best example of independent testing I've found:
ISO 5011 Duramax Air Filter Test Report

An oiled gauze filter is inferior at doing what an air filter is supposed to do... filter the air. Poor air filtration is a major contributor to engine wear.

[JOZ RIDG]

I have a few questions on this topic for anyone that knows the answer to the first two questions.

I admit I'm a mushroom on this topic, other than having bad experiences with K&N oiled filters on two different vehicles and reading many posts on the subject.

1. What is the total CFM of air that can be drawn through the Ridgeline OEM filter?

2. What is the total CFM of air that the Ridgeline engine can induct under normal driving RPM's?

I'm almost positive that the OEM filter can handle anything the engine needs otherwise Honda made a big blunder in design and using a paper element type filter.

3. If the OEM filter can handle the CFM needed it seems that the after market oiled/gauze Full-Flow filters would not make that much difference, so why risk warranty problems and possibly having dirt/contaminates entering the system?

[JOZ RIDG]

Originally Posted by csimo

Here's a good test of various air filters... a good read. I've talked with the author and believe he did his very best to find the truth. It's probably the best example of independent testing I've found:
ISO 5011 Duramax Air Filter Test Report

An oiled gauze filter is inferior at doing what an air filter is supposed to do... filter the air. Poor air filtration is a major contributor to engine wear.

Good reading on this subject and very technical, although everything in life has bias to some degree these tests seem to be very unbiased.

I liked the fourth paragraph from the end:

(Arlen) SPICER wrote,

“Now that I am not doing the tests and my objectivity is not necessary, let me explain my motivation. The reason I started this crusade was that I was seeing people spend a lot of money on aftermarket filters based on the word of a salesperson or based on the misleading, incomplete or outright deceiving information printed on boxes and in sales literature. Gentlemen and Ladies, Marketing and the lure of profit is VERY POWERFUL! It is amazing how many people believe that better airflow = more power! Unless you have modifications out the wazoo, a more porous filter will just dirty your oil! Some will say " I have used aftermarket brand X for XXX # years with no problems. The PROBLEM is you spent a chunk of ching on a product that not only DID NOT increase your horsepower, but also let in a lot of dirt while doing it! Now how much is a lot? ANY MORE THAN NECESSARY is TOO MUCH!


He also stated "Now I am not saying that ALL aftermarket filters are useless."

It states there is a place for certain after market filters under special conditions.

But I don't think I'm going to get my everyday vehicle's air filter or my Ridgeline's air filter wet or muddy and have it collaspe under normal everyday freeway, highway and street driving conditions.


Just read the last section of the article again and the second paragraph from the end hits the nail on the head, so to speak.

[NJ RTX]

Originally Posted by csimo

I'm sorry if you feel I'm belittling you... please don't feel that way. I do feel that anyone that buys into the K&N claims is just as foolish as the person that bought the fuel line magnet or the intake vortex.

My status as moderator has absolutely nothing to do with it. Does my status as a moderator eliminate my right to give my opinion? Are the facts changed because I'm a moderator?

I have used aftermarket filters... and have done a fair amount of investigation on them. I've done more work in the area of oil fitlers than air filters.

Here's a good test of various air filters... a good read. I've talked with the author and believe he did his very best to find the truth. It's probably the best example of independent testing I've found:
ISO 5011 Duramax Air Filter Test Report

An oiled gauze filter is inferior at doing what an air filter is supposed to do... filter the air. Poor air filtration is a major contributor to engine wear.

Maybe belittling is the wrong word. I guess condescending would be better. Your status as moderator MIGHT lead some to think you had actual first hand knowledge on a topic, rather than simply stating your opinion. I am glad you are now stating that this is only your opinion. Based on the statement "I have used aftermarket filters... and have done a fair amount of investigation on them." says nothing. If this is as much fact as you can offer, there is probably no need for further discussion on this topic. However, if you have read anything that I have written, you wll notice I have said that the K&N filter needs to be closely maintained. Based on maintaining properly, you can keep the unwanted dirt out of your engine, just as with any other filter. In fact, the K&N will not deteriorate like a paper filter will in wet or moist conditions. Not that our vehicles ever run in to wetness or moisture. :-) Anyone who has had a "bad experience" with one most likely did not maintain it properly. The fact that it is guranteed to do it's job for 1,000,000 miles is not without careful scheduled maintenance. When you change your oil, clean and re-oil your filter...

Originally Posted by JOZ RIDG

I have a few questions on this topic for anyone that knows the answer to the first two questions.

I admit I'm a mushroom on this topic, other than having bad experiences with K&N oiled filters on two different vehicles and reading many posts on the subject.

1. What is the total CFM of air that can be drawn through the Ridgeline OEM filter?

2. What is the total CFM of air that the Ridgeline engine can induct under normal driving RPM's?

I'm almost positive that the OEM filter can handle anything the engine needs otherwise Honda made a big blunder in design and using a paper element type filter.

3. If the OEM filter can handle the CFM needed it seems that the after market oiled/gauze Full-Flow filters would not make that much difference, so why risk warranty problems and possibly having dirt/contaminates entering the system?

I'm not sure that anyone here can define that conclusively, but Csimo did broach the subject before with this statement "I did investigate the CFM rating of the 3.5L engine at red line, and compare it to what the OEM filter will flow. The absolute truth is that the numbers are so far apart that it is impossible for the OEM air filter to be any factor in performance unless it's dirty". Please inform us what these numbers are, as well as at idle and mid range as I am sure all of that datat would be compiled together. No one would go through the hoops to only document red line cfm. The more important question would be to read the cfm difference at idle, mid range and full rpm between the stock filter, and then the K&N.

Originally Posted by JOZ RIDG

Good reading on this subject and very technical, although everything in life has bias to some degree these tests seem to be very unbiased.

I liked the fourth paragraph from the end:

(Arlen) SPICER wrote,

“Now that I am not doing the tests and my objectivity is not necessary, let me explain my motivation. The reason I started this crusade was that I was seeing people spend a lot of money on aftermarket filters based on the word of a salesperson or based on the misleading, incomplete or outright deceiving information printed on boxes and in sales literature. Gentlemen and Ladies, Marketing and the lure of profit is VERY POWERFUL! It is amazing how many people believe that better airflow = more power! Unless you have modifications out the wazoo, a more porous filter will just dirty your oil! Some will say " I have used aftermarket brand X for XXX # years with no problems. The PROBLEM is you spent a chunk of ching on a product that not only DID NOT increase your horsepower, but also let in a lot of dirt while doing it! Now how much is a lot? ANY MORE THAN NECESSARY is TOO MUCH!


He also stated "Now I am not saying that ALL aftermarket filters are useless."

It states there is a place for certain after market filters under special conditions.

But I don't think I'm going to get my everyday vehicle's air filter or my Ridgeline's air filter wet or muddy and have it collaspe under normal everyday freeway, highway and street driving conditions.


Just read the last section of the article again and the second paragraph from the end hits the nail on the head, so to speak.

While I will agree there is good reading there, you cannot compare a diesel to a gas engine and expect anywhere near the same results.


How about this test...hold your nose, take a piece of paper and hold it up over your mouth. Try breathing through it for a while. Once you have regained consciousness, let me know your thoughts.

[NJ RTX]

Let me see if I can put this in to better perspective for some.

• I am not in the aftermarket parts business.
• I am not related to anyone who is.
• I have built / modified 11 cars (carburetors/injection and F/I).
• I am not an engineer.
• I am not stating that a simple air filter will add 50 mpg or 50 hp.
• I noticed a very distinct difference in low rpm responsiveness.
• I feel a change in the low-mid range characteristics.
• I am getting an extra 1...maybe 1+ miles per gallon as I have with every other car I have used this filter on.
• My Ridge cannot do wheelies now with all of the extra performance.
• I will not change your life or make you rich.
• It does not slice, dice, sauté or simmer.
• It will not cure those unsightly liver spots.
• It will not bring the spice back in to your tired marriage

It does work for me. I am happy with the investment (if you can call $50 an investment). I will also repeat...if not anything else, it will save you on the cost of constantly replacing your air filter (retail price of $21.95 or about $16.00 from H&A plus shipping). Worst case scenario...once you would have replaced your third air filter, your cost is the same.
PLEASE NOTE: YOU MUST MAINTAIN YOUR AFTERMARKET AIR FILTER! A SIMPLE WAY OF REMEMBERING IS TO CLEAN AND RE-OIL EVERY TIME YOU DO AN OIL CHANGE. ALTHOUGH K&N STATES THAT CLEANING AND RE-OILING IS DUE AT 50,000 MILE INCREMENTS, OR MORE WITH DUSTY CONDITIONS.
I hope this covers everything

[csimo]

Originally Posted by NJ RTX

Based on maintaining properly, you can keep the unwanted dirt out of your engine, just as with any other filter.

No one would go through the hoops to only document red line cfm. The more important question would be to read the cfm difference at idle, mid range and full rpm between the stock filter, and then the K&N.

While I will agree there is good reading there, you cannot compare a diesel to a gas engine and expect anywhere near the same results.

Three issuse...

#1 Unwanted dirt. I guess you didn't read the test I suggested. That is the point... an oiled gauze filter does not filter well, new, dirty or otherwise. It's an ineffective filter that should not be used for normal automotive use.

#2 I mentioned redline since that's the most likely place an aftermarket filter would make any difference. A filter that caused a difference at idle would not allow you to reach red line. Not to get too far off the subject... this is a valid subject for the aftermarket intakes which suffer at low / mid RPM due to low air velocity, but that's a different subject. I don't remember the CFM off the top of my head... I think I posted it a year or two ago, but I think it was around 320CFM at redline. The filter tested out at like 770CFM pulling minimal restriction (6" H2O). It was well over anything one could possibly use.

#3 It wouldn't matter if the engine were gasoline, diesel, propane, or even just a big vacuum cleaner. The filter, nor the dirt know what's sucking on them.

[NJ RTX]

Originally Posted by csimo

Three issuse...

#1 Unwanted dirt. I guess you didn't read the test I suggested. That is the point... an oiled gauze filter does not filter well, new, dirty or otherwise. It's an ineffective filter that should not be used for normal automotive use.

#2 I mentioned redline since that's the most likely place an aftermarket filter would make any difference. A filter that caused a difference at idle would not allow you to reach red line. Not to get too far off the subject... this is a valid subject for the aftermarket intakes which suffer at low / mid RPM due to low air velocity, but that's a different subject. I don't remember the CFM off the top of my head... I think I posted it a year or two ago, but I think it was around 320CFM at redline. The filter tested out at like 770CFM pulling minimal restriction (6" H2O). It was well over anything one could possibly use.

#3 It wouldn't matter if the engine were gasoline, diesel, propane, or even just a big vacuum cleaner. The filter, nor the dirt know what's sucking on them.

With all due respect...
Point #1 - I did read the report you listed. The information posted there was a comparison of how well the filters removed dirt from the air based on particle size in microns. While I agree that paper will remove dirt to a lower micron, the difference in range (in realistic terms) is negligible, although the report makes the numbers seem large. It would be the opposite of let's say noise ratings where the perceived difference between 66 dba and 62 dba is huge, but the numerical difference doesn't seem that far off. In this case, the micron ratings seem huge, but the particle size is so small it would pass without any internal damage. I am working with OSHA and PEOSH right now regarding silicosis. My background on particle size is pretty steep. K&N has sold In addition, you keep referring the K&N as oiled gauze which leads me to believe you've never seen one. I would consider it more like a coated screen On a last note...K&N has sold millions of these "ineffective filter that should not be used for normal automotive use". Do you think it would be safe to say that the lawsuits from such trash would have put them out of business a long time ago?

Point #2
Funny you mention 320 cfm at redline as most paper panel filters will allow an average max of 319 cfm of clean air through a clean filter. The K&N will allow 440 cfm. An aftermarket filter is not made to just produce results at "redline" as you stated (or more accurately at the highest cfm. It does more good when there is not allot of vacuum to pull the air through. More air can get through, even when there is not allot of vacuum pulling it, which gives you better low end and mid range performance. More air = more power and in some cases also equals better mpg.

Point #3
I've got to call you on this one as well. If we were talking about computer-less cars, or the std carburation vehicles of the 70's and earlier, I might agree. With so many points being monitored for performance...even down to intake air temp and mass air flow indicators...you can't possibly say that the vehicle doesn't make a difference. Otherwise, why would there be computers and sensors? Why would companies like Hondata modify ECU's to get optimum performance out of an engine rather than the "safer" settings from the factory? Why would there be tuners?

This is about how much air the engine can pull and utilize...