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The Owner's Manual says Honda endorses TOP TIER gasoline. It does not say Honda recommends TOP TIER gasoline.

You gotta think like an attorney when reading this stuff. :)
 

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bluegrass, check out page 477 of the full owners manual where it specifically states Honda Endorses the use of TOP TIER fuels.

Roger, you are good!!! Lol 😆 that’s what I quoted and later used recommended because I’m a scientist not a lawyer!!!
 

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Fort Garland,CO to Claude, TX manual calculation 33.6 mpg running speed limits, 65mph and 75mph. Cross winds most of trip. Fort Garland,CO to Walsenburg, CO computer indicated 40.2 mpg when last I shared the pic from April of 38.1 mpg. Fuel, Cenex 85 octane regular. 5000+ miles on unit has a lifetime average by computer of 23.3 mpg. Tires are under inflated for off road mountain driving and I left them at that pressure. 31 psi @ 50 F.
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TOP TIER endorsement will lower deposits and increase MPG...
Honda is recommending top tier and the top tier website shows their testing. Look it up. I share what I can.
This is wrong on all accounts...
  • Honda does NOT "recommend" top tier fuel.
  • There is ZERO testing/evidence that shows Top Tier fuel will "increase MPG"
  • There is ZERO testing/evidence that shows Top Tier fuel will "lower deposits" in modern engines compared to non-TT fuel.
 

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bluegrass, you need to read more science and engineering data about the interactions between fuel, engine oil, and deposits in fuel and oil side. It's complex.

Remember I don't think our baseline regionally approved gasolines are clean or efficient enough for modern engines.

I'm not defending Top Tier marketing, but polymeric additives can clean what the cheap gasoline leaves behind to a point. Then extra additives can actually become deposit forming themselves.

Then there is a whole additional aspect that fuel additives do in the engine oil from fuel dilution of engine oil. We have found that proper hand in glove additives in fuel that recirculate in EGR cycle, and get scrubbed into engine oil by rings can work with or against the engine oil. Here's a fairly recent SAE paper to describe that effect.

 

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bluegrass, Honda wrote the "endorsement" of Top Tier in the owners manual above not anyone commenting here. Take that up with Honda I guess.
I know what the owner's manual says.
I was just clarifying that it does NOT say it "recommends" TT fuel, which is what you claimed earlier
 

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bluegrass, you need to read more science and engineering data about the interactions between fuel, engine oil, and deposits in fuel and oil side. It's complex.
Remember I don't think our baseline regionally approved gasolines are clean or efficient enough for modern engines.
I'm not defending Top Tier marketing, but polymeric additives can clean what the cheap gasoline leaves behind to a point. Then extra additives can actually become deposit forming themselves.
You claimed that TOP TIER fuel will "lower deposits" and "increase MPG" compared to non-TT fuel.

There is absolutely zero evidence to support these claims for modern vehicles using regular unleaded fuel.
 

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I wrote a lot of other in depth observations from testing for 40+ years too. Read those as critically. I'm retired and don't really care to defend poor quality fuel and the tricks to get it work optimally for spark IC gasoline engines that need cleaner burning gasolines/fuel let alone argue about "recommend vs endorse". I would say my MPG results speak above the norm for those who don't pay attention to engine cleanliness and optimizing fuel choices. Read the SAE article if you want to learn.
 

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Read the SAE article if you want to learn.
The SAE article does not support your claim that TOP TIER fuel will "lower deposits" and "increase MPG"

I’ve posted this before, but here are the 3 "performance standards" used to classify a fuel as Top Tier.
Testing is conducted using obsolete engines (1.9L Volkswagen, 5.0L 1990-95 GM V-8)...
  1. Intake Valve Keep Clean Initial Performance Standard - The base fuel shall contain enough deposit control additive such that IVD is no more than 50 mg averaged over all intake valves.
  2. Combustion Chamber Deposit Initial Performance Standard - The base fuel treated with additive shall not result in more than 140% of the average CCD weight for the base fuel without additive.
  3. Intake Valve Sticking Initial Performance Standard - The valve-sticking tendency of the test fuel by itself will not have to be demonstrated prior to testing the candidate additive. A pass shall result in no stuck valves during any of the three cold starts.
In summary…
  • Only 1 test is compared to non-TT fuel, and it allows the TT fuel to create considerably more deposits.
  • The remaining tests are meaningless, because there is no benchmark to non-TT fuel.
  • All “testing” is done using ancient, obsolete, irrelevant engines.

If the Top Tier fuel marketing company could prove their gas had the ability to "lower deposits" and "increase MPG", they would absolutely have done so AND would be advertising/marketing the hell out of these claims.
 

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You miss my point, TOP TIER is a marketing game OEM's bought into because the gasolines are poor quality. I am NOT defending TOP TIER. Clean burning gasoline, clean engines with no deposits, engines with friction reduction from fuel and oil side DO GET BETTER MPG and run better. Thats my point. Your rub is with TOP TIER licensing and HONDA.
 

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You miss my point, TOP TIER is a marketing game OEM's bought into because the gasolines are poor quality. I am NOT defending TOP TIER. Clean burning gasoline, clean engines with no deposits, engines with friction reduction from fuel and oil side DO GET BETTER MPG and run better. That's my point. Your rub is with TOP TIER licensing and HONDA.
Here are your exact words I was responding to...
"generally the TOP TIER endorsement will lower deposits and increase MPG"

I'm simply pointing out that there is zero research/evidence/testing to support this claim about Top Tier fuel.
 

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My Ridgeline gets 40 MPG, too (when I'm driving downhill). :)

All of the gasoline brands that I buy happen to be Top Tier (by default - not by choice), but I have a lot of friends, family, and co-workers (I'd confidently guess the majority of them, actually) who buy non-Top Tier gasoline from Sam's, local grocery stores, and other places because it's cheap and don't seem to have any more fuel-related issues. (Maybe they all buy the dealer's overpriced "fuel system cleaning", but I doubt it. Haha!)
 

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bluegrass, I am simply pointing out the chemistries in fuel and oils, mostly polymeric, that can make a difference good and bad. Sadly marketing has the reader tunnel visioned on marketing not science based focus.

Roger, Fort Garland,CO to Claude, TX manual calculation 33.6 mpg running speed limits, 65mph and 75mph. Cross winds most of trip. Fort Garland,CO to Walsenburg, CO computer indicated 40.2 mpg when last I shared the pic from April of 38.1 mpg. Fuel, Cenex 85 octane regular. 5000+ miles on unit has a lifetime average by computer of 23.3 mpg. Tires are under inflated for off road mountain driving and I left them at that pressure. 31 psi @ 50 F.

BTW 40.2 was after climbing LaVeta Pass and included in that average. Its not just downhill its a hell of a climb too!

I used manual calculations from gallons consumed to show the 33.6 mpg so you wouldn't worry about the variations in computer bias on the Ridgeline.

CENEX gasolines contain 3X the polymeric additives and the CENEX synthetic MAXTRON 0w20 is most likely ( still to confirm) compatible with those additives as my 1.6% fuels dilute of gasoline in the engine oil adds some friction reduction and most likely oxidative stability to the lubricant. Lubricating rings from engine oil side AND fuel side has significant effects on MPG and efficiency.

TD
 

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Better save our money, gas prices are on their way to $4.00/gallon because of the shortage of tanker drivers. There are obviously other reasons also.
 
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Our gasolines are defective and we argue about marketing terms related to chemical bandaids because most consumers don't care, nor can they ID problems or their causes. Internet amplifies the marketing obfuscation and thats "Merika"...... For those that care you can leverage crappy average stuff to make it run better and last longer. It takes some thoughtful approach though. The companies you buy stuff from won't share proprietary data but you can still check the products with your own testing and using best value you can access. Thats who I am addressing here. As a retired person who is also disabled its important not to waste what fixed income we still have. Stay tuned for the follow up oil analysis on the 2020 Sport. I'll show in that data how its working or not working.
 
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