2023 RAV4 PRIME

bluegrass said:

I struggle with the desire of plug-in hybrids.

An ICE or EV vehicle requires the knowledge/complexity/maintenance/repair of one powertrain type, while a hybrid requires BOTH.
An ICE vehicle requires gas station stops, and an EV needs to be plugged in, but a hybrid requires BOTH.

If you do a lot of sustained higher speed driving, the efficiency advantage of a hybrid is minimal, or negative if you consider the higher upfront cost.
And if you do a lot of city driving, then why not just buy an EV?
It might make sense if I owned only 1 vehicle AND did substantial city driving AND frequently took 300+ mile highway trips.

Click to expand...

As EV's evolve they'll become Plug in will become irrelevant but IMO the regular hybrid is the way to go. It will beat the gas ICE mpg's in all situations that I can think of and they drive better. When you factor in hybrid up front cost and the unknowns at trade in those factors do support the case for ICE but to me the only justifiable case for ICE is all highway use, lots and lots of miles and extreme cold. You aren't going to eclipse decades of ICE development overnight but with inevitable legislation ICE will lessen whether we like it or not,

Plug ins are just a hedge for the time being but I've quickly learned that they are more than a regular hybrid with a bigger battery. I do find all the charging at home inconvenient for what you get compared to the regular hybrid. That's the price to be paid right now however for pure EV capability for short distances plus the convenience of ICE plus the ridiculously unnecessary performance gains . I don't see the purpose of gas sporty cars anymore those should be the first to become irrelevant. Second should be the gas Pilots, Passports, Traverses and the SUV's of that size. Highlander Hybrid and the Sienna which is a hybrid have proven this the MPG gain is significant. It would be nice if this would work for midsize trucks but engine and battery packaging probably makes pure EV truck the next evolutionary step.

With Toyota I can't find much of anything about the hybrid system having problems other than the current issue with a rusty cable that fails costing 6k to replace. Toyota has addressed this and I now have a letter saying that for the VIN the warranty is extended to 8 years and mileage to match the hybrid warranty. This warranty extension is supposedly going to be extended to other models starting in Canada but nothing so far about the 2023's. If that's the case I wouldn't go past the 3/36 with the Prime but would certainly see if the catastrophic items are covered with an extended warranty. So far the research indicates that the extended warranty does little if anything for the hybrid components because Toyota has a hefty Hybrid warranty but there are exclusions.

First waxing and no the black plastic does not scratch. In fact much easier to deal with than the matte plastic.

Sparkland said:

The problem arises when you need to drive more miles than your 120-volt receptacle will provide in 8 hours.

Click to expand...

Still, it's cheaper to drive for x miles on electricity and the rest on gasoline in a plug-in hybrid than 0 miles on electricity and all on gasoline.

Never plugging in a PHEV for any length of time is...

The other consideration, especially in housing where you have a detached garage is both my mom's house in Michigan and two of my dad's houses in California. The detached garage was not much more than an overgrown shed without power. Today two of those three have power, but neither were setup for 220v, so a new trench, circuit and all is required, and I doubt the 120v would handle the load of an EV for 8-12 continuous hours.

Factor those, multiple unit dwellings (apartments, condos, duplexes, townhomes and the like) neighborhoods such as those where you are street parking and the entire charging at home infrastructure is thrown away.

Now with modern lighting technology, converting every street light to LED (therefore using less electricity) and installing charging infrastructure in the street lights and we're making progress. But we're seriously probably 50+ years away from truly being "charging infrastructure" ready, and that's optimistic if we get started today. And we've not even considered where we're sourcing our electricity for charging.

zroger73 said:

120 volt receptacles are typically connected to 15 amp breakers. Those circuits are designed to handle 80% of their ratings for continuous loads (12 amps) - which is the what level 1 chargers supply.

Also, the same wires that carry 120 volts can be reconfigured to carry 240 volts which would allow an EV to charge twice as fast; however, if there are 120-volt devices in that same location (e.g., lights or garage door openers), they may need to be replaced with 240 volt versions or a 240/120-volt transformer added.

Click to expand...

Well, we can agree to disagree, those two garages, both I was around when they were "electrified". Only one would I even consider parking my $50k+ EV in, and it's in Michigan and uninsulated, and I know I've blown the 15A fuse more than once while just working on my HS car. lightning, electric kerosene heater, power tools will cause the direct bury cable (looking back not much more than a buried extension cord). As I recall the electrician friend wanted to upgrade, but she couldn't afford it and the then boyfriend was just getting power for a GDO she wanted.

The other, dad was a Navy electrician, so he knew better, but was seriously cheap. And hired day laborers, on a holiday weekend to not be noticed by his nosy neighbor, and wrap it up while the city inspectors weren't working. That's another direct bury which is tied into 1/2 the pool pump 220v circuit. Because as he would say, if you know the rules you can break them

zroger73 said:

EVs are typically charged at night when demand for electricity is typically lowest and there is an excess of generation capacity that is going unused. As EV charging increases, generation won't throttle back as much at night.

Click to expand...

If by infrastructure I solely meant power generation, I agree that's there's unused capacity. But maintenance and associated downtime also factors in. Also extended heat waves (CA/MI) extended cold snaps (TX), squirrel on a power line (Western Electric Grid) and associated black and brown outs, those are all things that happen or have happened in the last 25 years or so of my life.

Along with all the other little things, including the ability to charge during the overnight hours (Home/Home Garage) in our average housing stock which is currently 40+ years old. I have no doubt we can get there, but you better start working on getting your boss to install charging, because that is where the excess power actually is now in California, and I'm guessing I'll retire before the mandate comes out requiring EV charging at vehicle parking lots for employees.

^ That's correct. Two conductors + ground is all you need for a NEMA 6-20 receptacle that can handle 16 amps continuously which would charge at 3.8 kW (up to 14 miles of range per hour of charging on a Tesla Model Y, for example).

Thanks for all the clarifications.

With the Level 1 charging chord that Toyota provides to plug into a standard outlet, the most it will draw is 12Amps. Doesn't matter if it's on a 15A or 20A circuit. The 20A circuit will have less chance of tripping if more than just the charger is drawing from it. All the 3.3kWh or 6.6kWh is for level 2 charging only. All 2023 RAV's now come with the 6.6kWh.

Doing the NEMA 6-20 would only pick up 4 amps for a total draw of 16amps but that setup wouldn't work with the supplied chord. At this point it's all or nothing. I'd lean towards nothing as the " level 2 way to go" setup would be for pure EV. The one thing I don't like is having the battery full while in the garage. I'm not on a schedule so not fan of waiting for the Rav to charge before going out but once the charge is complete I feel that I have to drive it. I suppose could check the app and charge to 75% or so.

I love the feel of driving in EV but inevitably turn on the engine for the sake of the seals, etc. All known up front before getting a Prime just trying to manage it.

It's funny, took the bride out to run a few errands. Drove EV the whole way, not a word or acknowledgement.