[T Mac]

Buyers Are Liars: Selling Metal in the Internet Age

By Philip Reed, Edmunds

 

[csimo]

Buyers are liars? This comes from car salesmen... some of the lowest scum of the earth. I'll pass on a recent experience.

First off I've purchased about 50 new vehicles over the years. I was management in the auto manufacturing business for about 14 years. I know the business.

I started looking for a Ridgeline. Went to a couple of dealers just test driving and trying to decide if I like the Ridgeline or not. One salesman approached me and said that he was a retired school teacher and doesn't "play games". That sounded good to me. Refreshing in fact... I hate the games car dealers and salesmen play.

This dealer had a Ridgeline RTL with navigation in stock but it was red. I wanted white or silver. Decided to look at the red anyway. The salesman asked what I was driving and I pointed at my MDX. He asked if I was going to trade it in. My reply was no. I don't trade in vehicles. He then went on and on about how he had a customer looking for a like new MDX and blah, blah, and this and that. Unfortunately I was off guard because this guy assured me he didn't play games.

For some strange reason I gave him my keys. He assured me that he would give me a great price on a trade since they had a buyer on the hook.

Next thing I know we're in the little cubicle talking numbers. I figured I could put up with a red Ridgeline if they were going to give me more for my MDX than it was worth. Well the offer came back and was a typical low ball offer. I got up to leave, but per the scumbag car salesman bag of tricks they had my keys. I told the salesman to get my keys.

After a few minutes he came back with a better offer. I asked him to get my keys. He asked the "what is it going to take" line of BS that is typical. I picked up my cell phone and said "I'm dialling 911 and hope to have you arrested when the police get here". He begged me to stop and went and got my keys.

I walked out and headed toward my vehicle. He followed giving me a better offer. I turned and told him that I didn't care if he offered to give me the best deal the world has to offer I would not do business with him. He's nothing but another scumbag car salesman that lied to me about being a straight shooter. He looked perplexed as to why I wouldn't have expected him to be lying about not playing games.

He called me the next day and I told him again that I would not do business with him, or his dealership no matter what. This ex-school teacher wasn't smart enough to understand that I was serious about only doing business with reputable dealers and salespersons.

I wish more people would do the same. This game these dealerships play is archaic and degrading to anyone of intelligence. Do they not understand why the "flat rate" type dealerships are swamped with business and dealing with a salaried salesperson is a joy. There are a few of each brand and they are a joy to deal with.

I guess it's the ignorance in the industry that perpetuates this system that the majority of people hate. I refuse to participate in such a system. I just send out my email and FAX order and wait for a dealer to bite. I will not play their games.

Car dealers and salespersons earn the lowest integrity awards every year. They deserve it. The few dealers and salespersons that "take the high road" unfortunately have to suffer due to the ignorance of their peers.

 

[csimo]

Here's another one. I responded to a advertisement that said "You can purchase ANY NEW RIDGELINE we have in stock (or inbound) for only $899.00 over invoice! No gimicks, no games!" No need to name the dealer or source.

What does that say? $899 over invoice. When I contacted the dealer I'm informed that the REAL selling price is $899 over invoice, PLUS a $54 "DOC FEE" (read rip-off when you see DOC fees), PLUS $7.50 for some kind of tax.

THAT'S NOT $899 OVER INVOICE, NO GIMMICKS, NO GAMES! It's $960.50 over invoice.

Doesn't matter if the dealer had a cheap price to me. It was false advertising and I won't do business with them. Be HONEST.

The point is not the $61.50... it's the honesty.

 

[Northwood]

Deja vu csimo.
They have made the buyers liars.
Toyota salesman stole my keys after a Tundra test drive.
Went to salaried Honda dealer afterward, for my first test drive of the Ridgeline.
Got the price I wanted and bought same day.
Much better atmosphere.

 

[Grok Lobster]

Agreed. The salesman that sold me my RL lied to me about the price of the bed extender - they are not getting any recommendations from me.

 

[Truckin']

The no dicker, salaried sales person we talked to was a delight and very knowledgeable. However, that dealer had a $500 doc fee and when I asked about it, that was the only time he was evasive.

We did not buy from him and he didn't pursue the sale (I expected that he would make a follow up call).

I stood my ground with the local dealer, but we still got slapped with a $200 doc fee and a stupid "anti-theft" fee because I was on the phone at an inopportune time during the contract process. DH signed everything put in front of him, no questions.

 

[mayfielh]

My experience was a bit different. But in the end I won after threatening to get the owner on the phone.

The dealership I went to was the same one I purchased my CRV from. I had a positive experience so I figured I would head back. Well to sweeten the deal this dealership had been advertising that they do not put any "Dealer Mark-ups" on their Honda's. I looked for small print there wasn't any.

So I head in to do a test drive on a Friday. Loved the RL said I would come back on Monday because I wanted to take their show car for a couple of hours w/o a sales guy. Showed up Monday picked up the wife and daughter we drove around and play a bit. LOVED the RL. Went back ready to deal.

I told him RTS and I was paying Invoice + Destination + $75 doc fees (title, registration, blah, blah, blah). The Sales Manager (SM) said well we are marking those up $2000. That's when it got ugly. Fortunately for me there dealership had 5 people wheeling and dealing and at least 3 other groups looking at other vehicle within ear-shot.

I calmly told the SM that I am a returning customer and one of the reasons I came back is because the name sake of the company told me via the idiot box (TV) that he doesn't mark up his Hondas. The SM said, "The other Dealers are marking theirs up $10K!" I replied, "I'm not there am I." Then we got into a discussion on how long he should honor a commerical that no longer airs. I said well at least a week. Needless to say he became more reasonable as he realized the words coming out his mouth were garbage and I had a point, not to mention he had a lot of other customers that were interested in our conversation.

I paid exactly what I told them and I took my RL home the next day after they detailed it.

 

[csimo]

I hear stories like this all the time. Why can't dealers understand that people don't want to play all their games. Nearly every sales tactic they teach their salespeople is a deceptive tactic.

The few dealers that are honest and strightforward are swamped with buyers. Salaried salespersons, no hidden fees (DOC fees, the magical paint or fabric protectant, etc., $50 pinstripes listed at $200, $50 mudguards at $200, etc.). The problem is that there are very few of these dealers. Why? Becuase the automotive sales business is a tight closed loop. The dealers just recycle the people between them. A guy selling Honda's this week may be selling Toyota's or Chevy's next week. The few good fresh ideas are poisoned by these recyled salespersons.

I've purchased most of my new cars over the Internet the last five years or so. A refreshing experience. I don't ask them for a price, but rather tell 15 - 20 dealers what I'm willing to pay (bottom line price). I just sit back and wait for one to bite. Works great. It's MUCH easier with a Honda or Acura since there are virtually no options per model other than color. You can configure a Ridgeline about 4 ways, but an Avalanche can probably be configured over 175 different ways. That compicates things.

I like to hear these stories. Maybe some dealers will read them and decide to start taking the high road and leave their old deceptive ways behind them.

 

[jeffiam]

oh you all are just a bunch of "liars"
so anyway, i tried the internet/phone approach, i mean this way i won't have to play there games, i'll be in control .............yea ok. the long and short is that i paid sticker but was told they would give me 2000 more for my trade.
i thought, ok, thats fine. so when i go in to sign the paperwork, they did NOT have my trade correct (shocker) and they DID MARK UP THE STICKER 500!!
in the end i did not finance with them, went through c.u. got the 500 knocked off, but never quite got all the 2000 extra on my trade.....got 1000.
i should have walked out and i think thats why they do it. folks like me can be impatient. we are given every oppty in this country to buy what we want as long as we are "financible". so they take advantage of us, they try to have us on our heals from the moment we walk in. they are better at selling than many of us are at buying. they do it everyday, we do it once every few years or longer. i got a fair deal, but not a great deal. and i had to fight for that. unreal. buying a car is the only purchase i know where people are generally upset and defensive. that says much more about the seller than it does the buyer. the dealers have the responsibility to change the process, NOT THE BUYER...........THATS ABSURD. CSMO, I ADMIRE YOU FOR THE WAY YOU HANDLED YOUR SITUATION. WELL DONE I SAY.

 

[bellteck]

Deleted by Bellteck

 

[jeffiam]

so bellteck, you fabricated an offer sheet as a negotiating tool???? wow, you are just too damn smart

 

[swampler]

Bellteck, You are giving us buyers a bad name!

 

[bellteck]

Deleted by Bellteck

 

[jeffiam]

lol....lol......to church you go!!
good points to keep in mind....i managed most but not all. hey, what you did wasn't so bad. i mean you made an offer and they excepted it.
you know....these salespeople have meetings with there people on how to "rope" us im sure.......like with trying to be our "friend", etc....(great point about being a "fridge") they don't concentrate on selling there products, they concentrate on how to get the most money out of us that they can. they suck. i don't think you are in that class........atleast not yet .you know, honda should consider factory direct selling, now that would be innovative.

 

[mayfielh]

When my wife got home and I told her what I did she told me I needed to drive that new truck to church.

You might want to make a list of several denominations and stop and pray at each of them.

Good work.

 

[arteegee]

First got the price quotes on the phone, shopping for almost 3 months. Second went in with no trade. Third told them to remove dealer options as I wouldn't pay for them. Fourth, wrote a check. Best automotive buying experience I ever had by far.

 

[Ultra-HOG]

Well, we all know that they are out there. The good, the bad and the ugly! I, too, have run into all of them. I do not think that it is fair to call ALL car salesmen and women liars - or worse. My experience with the Honda dealer that I deal with has been a pleasure. I believe that they are a traditonal dealership with salespeople on commission. Since I discovered them, on average, over the past five years I have purchased one Honda per year from them. They do all of the service as well. When I go to purchase a vehicle, I know what my trade is worth if I am trading. They know that they get to make one offer to me, accepted or rejected, there is no second offer and I do not try to haggle a lower price. If they tried a second offer or the key trick even once, I would never go back. They offer a reasonable discount on ordered accessories. I am fair and honest with them about what I know about the condition of my trade. I expect them to make a profit on our transaction as much as I expect them to be there when I go back for another vehicle or for service. Could I have purchased the vehicles at a lower price? Maybe yes, maybe not. Making a purchase of a vehicle is, at least to me, not only about the purchase price. They go out of their way to take care of customers that purchase vehicles from them. Our relationship is based on mutual respect and trust. They earned it by being honest and doing what they say they are going to do. They have earned several national awards from Honda for their exceptional performance.

Three other points:
1) From what I hear from friends and other customers in the showroom or on the street, I am not being treated in any special way or any differently than they have.
2) The dealerships name is Dix Honda in State College, Pennsylvania. My salesperson is Bill Elder.
3) I have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Dix Honda other than as any other very satisfied customer.

I have a good friend that owns a Ford dealership. He runs his business the same way as Dix Honda does and I could say many if the same things about him. He, too, is the exception to the generally perceived rule. The last vehicle that I purchased from him was a new Eddie Bauer Explorer. The vehicle turned out to be such and incredible piece of sh#! that it will be a long time before I consider another Ford product. He did everything that he could but it was so far out of his control the we both gave up and I sold it to a mechanic - real cheap - as-is. It was very well maintained, garage kept and no towing. It had two head gasket failures, one transmission failure, every piece of the AC system one at a time fail, body rust through in several locations multiple times while still under warranty, interior falling appart - I could go on and on. My problem was with how Ford handled the problems not in how the dealer handled them. Ford blew me off completely. They have received zero business from me since. Four out of four Explorers in our neighorhood had essentially the same problems.
Sorry about the rant - somebody hit a nerve again!

 

[csimo]

Well, we all know that they are out there. The good, the bad and the ugly! I, too, have run into all of them. I do not think that it is fair to call ALL car salesmen and women liars - or worse. My experience with the Honda dealer that I deal with has been a pleasure. I believe that they are a traditonal dealership with salespeople on commission. Since I discovered them, on average, over the past five years I have purchased one Honda per year from them. They do all of the service as well. When I go to purchase a vehicle, I know what my trade is worth if I am trading. They know that they get to make one offer to me, accepted or rejected, there is no second offer and I do not try to haggle a lower price. If they tried a second offer or the key trick even once, I would never go back. They offer a reasonable discount on ordered accessories. I am fair and honest with them about what I know about the condition of my trade. I expect them to make a profit on our transaction as much as I expect them to be there when I go back for another vehicle or for service. Could I have purchased the vehicles at a lower price? Maybe yes, maybe not. Making a purchase of a vehicle is, at least to me, not only about the purchase price. They go out of their way to take care of customers that purchase vehicles from them. Our relationship is based on mutual respect and trust. They earned it by being honest and doing what they say they are going to do. They have earned several national awards from Honda for their exceptional performance.

Three other points:
1) From what I hear from friends and other customers in the showroom or on the street, I am not being treated in any special way or any differently than they have.
2) The dealerships name is Dix Honda in State College, Pennsylvania. My salesperson is Bill Elder.
3) I have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Dix Honda other than as any other very satisfied customer.

I have a good friend that owns a Ford dealership. He runs his business the same way as Dix Honda does and I could say many if the same things about him. He, too, is the exception to the generally perceived rule. The last vehicle that I purchased from him was a new Eddie Bauer Explorer. The vehicle turned out to be such and incredible piece of sh#! that it will be a long time before I consider another Ford product. He did everything that he could but it was so far out of his control the we both gave up and I sold it to a mechanic - real cheap - as-is. It was very well maintained, garage kept and no towing. It had two head gasket failures, one transmission failure, every piece of the AC system one at a time fail, body rust through in several locations multiple times while still under warranty, interior falling appart - I could go on and on. My problem was with how Ford handled the problems not in how the dealer handled them. Ford blew me off completely. They have received zero business from me since. Four out of four Explorers in our neighorhood had essentially the same problems.
Sorry about the rant - somebody hit a nerve again!

I'm not saying that ALL car dealers are bad, just 99% or so of them. I know nothing about the dealers you mention.

Couple of things though. You said "They have earned several national awards from Honda for their exceptional performance." You know that ALL Honda (and every other brand of dealership) earns awards every year. If they don't win the award, which every dealer is expected to earn, then they have problems with Honda. Bottom line is that 99.5% of all the dealers earn the same awards.

Chrysler did a big thing about dealers earning a 5 Star rating. Now every Chrysler dealer claims to have "achieved this highest award", blah, blah, blah.

You're probably a traditional customer and like the traditional way. That's fine. I'm not, and from the people I talk to not many are happy with the way most car dealerships run.

 

[jeffiam]

hog, sounds like youve got ahold of the decent business owners of car dealerships.......definately fortunate but i suspect the way you force them to deal with you also commands there respect to a point....maybe youve got a 9mm in your belt just where they can barely see it as you are talking price with them
csimo is right, i am one of those who just rolls my eyes, literally, when i think about dealing with those arrogant, unscrupulous a-holes...........its a beating, a pure beating and most of them don't mask it very well. you can see it in there eyes, on there faces..........its something else, it really is. and so........on behalf of us all....."dear honda, please sell me my next vehicle direct from your factory, i will come get it or pay to have it delivered."

 

[bellteck]

Deleted by Bellteck