Considering an electric vehicle?

7695 Views 136 Replies 40 Participants Last post by Danke, 3 mo ago

wjfyfe

Discussion Starter · Mar 7, 2020

With our Oregon state government doing it's darnedest to force folks into purchasing an electric vehicle, I sat down and contemplated what it would mean for us.

As an example, we are traveling from Oregon to Montana, approximately 1000 miles, a trip which takes us approximately 16 hours driving time currently, a day and a half when figuring in restaurant, motel and pee stops. Now, let's use the numbers from the Chevy Bolt, basically 200 mile range, 2 hour recharging time, and .5 hours looking for the charging station, boiling down to roughly 6.5 hours per 200 miles conservatively. Take that 1000 miles and divide it by 200 mile range and that equals 5 legs. Now multiply those five legs by 6.5 hours and we get 32.5 hours driving time. When again adding in motel, restaurant, and pee stops we essentially went from a day and a half trip to now taking over three days. That simply is not practical.

Another example, with our Jetta it takes approximately a gallon of fuel to drive me the 60 miles per day to and from work. Let's just round that to $3.00 per day. Figuring a given average cost of $0.08 per mile for the Bolt, this calculates out to approximately $4.80 per day.

Shall we consider the purchase price of a new electric vehicle to being approximately double of a gasoline equivalent, or how about a towing vehicle? Naw, let's save that for a future discussion.

So, unless one plans on only using an electric car for short trips zipping about town, it just does not make any economical sense, at least for us?

Bill

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Sparkland

· #2 · Mar 7, 2020

Simply put, the Chevy Bolt is not the EV you want for taking long trips. You need to get something with longer range. I know it will cost more, but if you have your heart set on an EV, then pay the price and get one that will make more sense for extended road trips.

Reactions: 1

CentexG2

· #3 · Mar 7, 2020 (Edited)

Considering federal and regional tax incentives, ensuring that the comparison is against truly comparable IC or Hybrid vehicles in terms of size, interior accommodation, and trim/features, and considering life-cycle maintenance costs might alter the lifetime $/mile absolute number a bit for some drivers ....

..... but for your use habit scenario (and that of many others) may well not alter the bottom-line economic and long-trip (im)practicality conclusion.

Some may find that on a household basis, owning two vehicles, one EV and one IC or hybrid, may offer demonstrable household life-cycle economic payback for meeting their total transportation needs (maybe still not your two-vehicle household).

As has been the case from market-entry to date for EV's, many buyers who make the choice to 'go EV' do so based on reasons (tangible or otherwise) other than life-cycle economics. IMO there's nothing wrong with that as long as it's an informed choice.

IF one enters the process of evaluating EV vs IC/hybrid economics with an agenda biased against the EV, it's easy to support that agenda with an argument based on unsuitable vehicle or use-habit scenarios. NOT saying that's your agenda, but for some who posit the question, it is.

EV's aren't for everyone; but these days neither are ICV's.

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wjfyfe

Discussion Starter · #4 · Mar 7, 2020 (Edited)

You make some valid points, CentexG2, but I believe that there is one point in which you forwarded that you did not intend, that being that we will now have to compromise by purchasing two vehicles in the future to replace our one Jetta TDI, which sure sounds like a step backwards to me, whether you are speaking from an enconomic, or conservation-al, point of view!

Bill

CentexG2

· #5 · Mar 7, 2020 (Edited)

wjfyfe said:
You make some valid points, CentexG2, but I believe that there is one point in which you forwarded that you did not intend, that being it will now take two vehicles in the future to replace what we were capable of with the one Jetta TDI!

Bill

If your measure is is strictly economic return while meeting all transportation needs, what difference does it make whether that's with one or two vehicles? For the answer**, keep reading ...

Nope, no unintended point on my part, I'd suggest I forthrightly addressed that twice:

CentexG2 said:
Some may find that on a household basis, owning two vehicles, one EV and one IC or hybrid, may offer demonstrable household life-cycle economic payback for meeting their total transportation needs (maybe still not your two-vehicle household).

......

EV's aren't for everyone ....

Only you can determine, through un-biased evaluation, if a two-vehicle scenario makes overall economic sense for you as it does for some.

**And if replacing your Jetta with two vehicles does make overall economic sense, then you can pursue whatever other factors may be appropriate for your situation, for against that overall economically sensible solution (e.g. while there may be overall economic benefit, residential parking logistics may make it an unattractive proposition for you. Etc.).

Edit per edit:

wjfyfe said:
You make some valid points, CentexG2, but I believe that there is one point in which you forwarded that you did not intend, that being that we will now have to compromise by purchasing two vehicles in the future to replace our one Jetta TDI, which sure sounds like a step backwards to me, whether you are speaking from an enconomic, or conservation-al, point of view!

Bill

Again and still, un-biased evaluation can determine if the new factor you introduce ("conservation-al", i.e. some measure of life-cycle global resource balance) is or is not indeed a "step backward". I don't make any presumption in that regard.

I don't want to make the assumption, but it with your edited reply it almost seems you are wanting to advance an agenda rather than rationally consider the role of EV's and ICV's in an individual's total transportation solution. If that's the case, I'm out, no worries!

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TommyDeVito

· #6 · Mar 11, 2020

DD a Leaf for 6 years now. It makes economic sense for me as I have 35 panels to power it. So it's essentially close to free for me for fuel for it. But it's definitely just a commuter, daily driver. Traveling, no, towing, no. Even if I had to pay for kwh, it's still much cheaper than gasoline off the grid. Then there is the heavily reduced maintenance on it. I'm coming up on 30k on the ODO. I have changed the in cabin air filter, new tires, and a new 12v battery under warranty. It's worked extremely well for me.

Reactions: 1

G1G2

· #7 · Mar 11, 2020 (Edited)

I just received the April issue of motor tend It’s titled the green issue. Great articles on E Trucks and Hybrid super cars with The NSX taking top spot.

markystarky

· #8 · Mar 19, 2020

Has anyone read anything about the 2021 Ford Mustang 5 door SUV? I reserved one in early February, hoping to see one by Christmas, but I think that's changed.

DriveAllNight

· #9 · Mar 19, 2020

Unless your life fits into the restrictions of an all electric car, they are not a viable solution. And to fit it, you have to really not drive much to begin with and when you do, fairly short distances.

Hybrids on the other hand make more sense, you can keep moving no matter what, but they are still not perfect.

The arguments can go on and on, but I wonder how 'Green' these cars really are. What happens to those batteries when they are worthless? And at the cost of those batteries how many cars just get scrapped altogether when the battery dies? Then there is the issue of the resources that go into making those batteries, and I've read that materials like lithium are limited long term.

Reactions: 1

markystarky

· #10 · Mar 19, 2020

DriveAllNight said:
Unless your life fits into the restrictions of an all electric car, they are not a viable solution. And to fit it, you have to really not drive much to begin with and when you do, fairly short distances.

Hybrids on the other hand make more sense, you can keep moving no matter what, but they are still not perfect.

The arguments can go on and on, but I wonder how 'Green' these cars really are. What happens to those batteries when they are worthless? And at the cost of those batteries how many cars just get scrapped altogether when the battery dies? Then there is the issue of the resources that go into making those batteries, and I've read that materials like lithium are limited long term.

Actually being retired I don't drive that much. A friend has a Tesla model 3 and enjoys his 300 or so miles of range and the ability to get an 80% charge in 30 minutes.
He has told me his batteries can be exchanged when they are depleted. Ford is saying they have a new battery design that allows them to switch out modules instead of whole batteries.

I wonder what the arguments against ICE vehicles were back in the day.

tmz

· #11 · Mar 21, 2020

They had electric cars 100+ years ago also.

wjfyfe

Discussion Starter · #12 · 10 mo ago (Edited)

DriveAllNight said:
Unless your life fits into the restrictions of an all electric car, they are not a viable solution. And to fit it, you have to really not drive much to begin with and when you do, fairly short distances.

Hybrids on the other hand make more sense, you can keep moving no matter what, but they are still not perfect.

The arguments can go on and on, but I wonder how 'Green' these cars really are. What happens to those batteries when they are worthless? And at the cost of those batteries how many cars just get scrapped altogether when the battery dies? Then there is the issue of the resources that go into making those batteries, and I've read that materials like lithium are limited long term.

I sat down and started playing around with figures again contemplating replacing our paid for Ridgeline for an electric vehicle. A future consideration will be that we will be doing frequent 250 mile round trip commutes through mountainous terrain, and no matter how I manipulate the figures I just cannot come up with any financial advantage to trading in our Ridgeline for an electric vehicle, or purchasing an additional electric vehicle. Throw in the necessity for having to take the time to do a recharge just adds to the impracticably?

Bill

speedlever

· #13 · 10 mo ago

wjfyfe said:
I sat down and started playing around with figures again contemplating replacing our paid for Ridgeline for an electric vehicle. A future consideration will be that we will be doing frequent 250 mile round trip commutes through mountainous terrain, and no matter how I manipulate the figures I just cannot come up with any financial advantage to trading in our Ridgeline for an electric vehicle, or purchasing an additional electric vehicle. Throw in the necessity for having to take the time to do a recharge just adds to the impracticably?

Bill

I've looked pretty hard at EVs too and have reached the same conclusion. At some point in time, an EV will make more sense for my life, should I live that long.

Reactions: 1

Elkhunter

· #14 · 10 mo ago

wjfyfe said:
With our Oregon state government doing it's darnedest to force folks into purchasing an electric vehicle, I sat down and contemplated what it would mean for us.

As an example, we are traveling from Oregon to Montana, approximately 1000 miles, a trip which takes us approximately 16 hours driving time currently, a day and a half when figuring in restaurant, motel and pee stops. Now, let's use the numbers from the Chevy Bolt, basically 200 mile range, 2 hour recharging time, and .5 hours looking for the charging station, boiling down to roughly 6.5 hours per 200 miles conservatively. Take that 1000 miles and divide it by 200 mile range and that equals 5 legs. Now multiply those five legs by 6.5 hours and we get 32.5 hours driving time. When again adding in motel, restaurant, and pee stops we essentially went from a day and a half trip to now taking over three days. That simply is not practical.

Another example, with our Jetta it takes approximately a gallon of fuel to drive me the 60 miles per day to and from work. Let's just round that to $3.00 per day. Figuring a given average cost of $0.08 per mile for the Bolt, this calculates out to approximately $4.80 per day.

Shall we consider the purchase price of a new electric vehicle to being approximately double of a gasoline equivalent, or how about a towing vehicle? Naw, let's save that for a future discussion.

So, unless one plans on only using an electric car for short trips zipping about town, it just does not make any economical sense, at least for us?

Bill

We did the same calcs. For us to go from one of our houses to the other currently take us about 3.5 days (roughly 1,800 miles). In an electric car would boost it to 9 days each way when adjusting for the long strips of nothingness in some locations. Just not feasible.

Once we retire it may make sense to get one…or at least a hybrid due to fewer miles driven. Its just thinking about the amount of times to charge the thing, the already weak power grid, the 1,300 pound battery (and all the coal burning equipment to mine and manufacture that) and there is noting green about them.

Then there is the post accident fire potential. Normal vehicle fire is 1,500 deg F. EV fire 4,500 deg F and it more easily reignites 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥

Reactions: 1

zroger73

· #15 · 9 mo ago

tmz said:
They had electric cars 100+ years ago also.

Well over 100 years ago, actually - long before gasoline-powered cars existed.

On the other hand, steam predated them both, but I highly doubt we'll revert to steam power.

fdeno

· #16 · 9 mo ago

People that want any ROI on an EV had better be fairly urbanly positioned and have short-to-meidum commutes daily to justify the extra expense, if "green" is their motivation instead of economics they should do their homework the "carbon footprint" of Evs powered by electrons from coal fired power plants is a factor...

feetdry

· #17 · 9 mo ago

Mine, will be solar powered most of its life. My commercial lawn mower has been solar powered for the last year too.

Will48121

· #18 · 9 mo ago

You can try and come up with reasons not to get one or act like the government is forcing EV’s, but the fact of the matter is that EV’s are the future of vehicles. Every manufacturer is moving to EV’s exclusively. The charging times are getting better every few months at this point. Most people aren’t driving 300 miles per day so charging overnight is a viable option. Others can supercharge at 15 minutes or so and keep moving. EV’s have more power, more torque etc than ICE counterparts. They really are impressive once you drive one. Towing is probably their biggest downfall right now. They can tow more than a gas vehicle, but it really kills the range.

DriveAllNight said:
Unless your life fits into the restrictions of an all electric car, they are not a viable solution. And to fit it, you have to really not drive much to begin with and when you do, fairly short distances.

Hybrids on the other hand make more sense, you can keep moving no matter what, but they are still not perfect.

The arguments can go on and on, but I wonder how 'Green' these cars really are. What happens to those batteries when they are worthless? And at the cost of those batteries how many cars just get scrapped altogether when the battery dies? Then there is the issue of the resources that go into making those batteries, and I've read that materials like lithium are limited long term.

The batteries are fully recyclable from what I’ve read. They also last 10-15 years no problem. They’re only going to get better. This is just the beginning,
but clearly is the future.

Reactions: 1

wjfyfe

Discussion Starter · #19 · 8 mo ago

We own three vehicles, all paid for, including the Ridgeline. How do we justify purchasing an EV?

Bill

DockingPilot

· #20 · 8 mo ago

You dont.

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