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And just like that, I’m out of the market for a Ridgeline. It has nothing to do with 2019 vs 2020 and everything to do with driving a soon to be paid for vehicle. I’m opting to save the payment for the next 2-3 years and see what’s what when I’m ready to buy.
I have never understood this. How do you not have a payment? Every month your vehicle is worth less and less. You continue to pay for the life of the vehicle. You just chose to make all the payments up front.

Sure, all vehicles hit some bottom eventually but at the same time the maintenance continues to rise. The older it gets and the higher the mileage climbs the maintenance costs increase.

The longer you keep your current vehicle the less equity you will have to place into the next one. There is a decent plunge in value at certain points in both years and mileage. By 5 years options no longer matter significantly to a value.

When I got home, I repeated this test on Edmunds.com. I used an RTL-E with 12k miles in outstanding condition in all 3 scenarios. Here's what I got for a private party deal:

19- $36,060
18- $35,138
17- $33,604

I realize that none of this is exact. It's whatever the demand is and what buyers are willing to pay. However, the situation looks a little more realistic than what KBB displays. I have never trusted their values. I use Edmunds and then look on various "for sale" sites and try to determine a fair value.
Edmunds simply apply a standard depreciation model to get their prices. It's been like this for years. KBB does similar. It's date based. I've priced cars and sometimes redone it the next day and seen 1500 drops or more when you get closer to the next model year release.

Those thinking a two year old vehicle that is only a couple grand less than new are crazy. You may be getting that from dumb buyers who just cant seem to buy new or feel used is somehow a better value?

To buy a 2 year old vehicle with 15-30k miles to save 2-3 grand seems short sighted. Especially if you finance. You will get more warranty, better rates, less chance of a headache (why the other guy dumped so soon).

Unless you are saving substantially, like 5-6k, you should never buy used within 1-2 years compared to new. Plus when you buy new, you have a much better idea of the actual price compared to used where you know the typical dealer (assuming it's not a private sale) paid way less for the same vehicle. Most dealers are gonna figure at least 3-5 buffer to take in any used vehicle.

I have no idea why Honda would continue to further soften the RL imagine by going push button shifter? Just making it all the more comparable to mini vans and suvs? And in my opinion the new Passport will fail. My neighbor, who is 70+ bought one. It's proportions are weird, it's priced in Pilot and RL territory, and really does not look much different, and in my opinion less practical than either. Off roader, come on?! Way better vehicles for that the a front drive biased Honda. But I guess there are enough fan boys to buy anything Honda.

Point being, I expect the 2020 RL to struggle with sales as the mid size market gets more and more real trucks. The Gladiator, the new Ram Dakota, redesigned GM offerings.

Everyone here always touts Honda only wants to make so many. What a horrible business management perspective if that is true. Why would you not want to sell as many as you can, vs. just sell the few you offer?

Honda ain't what it used to be.

On top of that all the big 3 offer 50k plus trucks with at least 10-13k off. Yeah, the perception may be they are junk and the fan boys think Honda builds a better mouse trap, but for less money you get way more vehicle as Honda just refuses to adjust pricing. Good for them. They can find 12 people per state per week to buy a RL. Meantime Ford sells an F150 every 30 seconds.
 

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I have never understood this. How do you not have a payment? Every month your vehicle is worth less and less. You continue to pay for the life of the vehicle. You just chose to make all the payments up front.
Let me say this a different way... I have no vehicle loan payment, meaning I own it free and clear. I am paying myself (i.e.: saving) the previous vehicle loan payment. I do continue to have maintenance related expenses like everyone else.
 

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I have never understood this. How do you not have a payment? Every month your vehicle is worth less and less. You continue to pay for the life of the vehicle. You just chose to make all the payments up front.

Sure, all vehicles hit some bottom eventually but at the same time the maintenance continues to rise. The older it gets and the higher the mileage climbs the maintenance costs increase.

The longer you keep your current vehicle the less equity you will have to place into the next one. There is a decent plunge in value at certain points in both years and mileage. By 5 years options no longer matter significantly to a value.



Edmunds simply apply a standard depreciation model to get their prices. It's been like this for years. KBB does similar. It's date based. I've priced cars and sometimes redone it the next day and seen 1500 drops or more when you get closer to the next model year release.

Those thinking a two year old vehicle that is only a couple grand less than new are crazy. You may be getting that from dumb buyers who just cant seem to buy new or feel used is somehow a better value?

To buy a 2 year old vehicle with 15-30k miles to save 2-3 grand seems short sighted. Especially if you finance. You will get more warranty, better rates, less chance of a headache (why the other guy dumped so soon).

Unless you are saving substantially, like 5-6k, you should never buy used within 1-2 years compared to new. Plus when you buy new, you have a much better idea of the actual price compared to used where you know the typical dealer (assuming it's not a private sale) paid way less for the same vehicle. Most dealers are gonna figure at least 3-5 buffer to take in any used vehicle.

I have no idea why Honda would continue to further soften the RL imagine by going push button shifter? Just making it all the more comparable to mini vans and suvs? And in my opinion the new Passport will fail. My neighbor, who is 70+ bought one. It's proportions are weird, it's priced in Pilot and RL territory, and really does not look much different, and in my opinion less practical than either. Off roader, come on?! Way better vehicles for that the a front drive biased Honda. But I guess there are enough fan boys to buy anything Honda.

Point being, I expect the 2020 RL to struggle with sales as the mid size market gets more and more real trucks. The Gladiator, the new Ram Dakota, redesigned GM offerings.

Everyone here always touts Honda only wants to make so many. What a horrible business management perspective if that is true. Why would you not want to sell as many as you can, vs. just sell the few you offer?

Honda ain't what it used to be.

On top of that all the big 3 offer 50k plus trucks with at least 10-13k off. Yeah, the perception may be they are junk and the fan boys think Honda builds a better mouse trap, but for less money you get way more vehicle as Honda just refuses to adjust pricing. Good for them. They can find 12 people per state per week to buy a RL. Meantime Ford sells an F150 every 30 seconds.
I agree a couple grand savings buying used isn't worth it to me, depends on the car when or if used is a value. I bought a new van several years ago because used was not much of a value, and am looking at a new truck now because used does not seem like much of a value, but holding onto cars until repairs become more expensive than a payment will put you waaay ahead in the long run. Not sure what you are driving, it takes a loooong time for maintenance costs to be greater than a car payment.

First 5 years you lose 60%+ of your value. The next 10 years you lose 30%. You never lose the last 10% if you keep it running. A car is the most expensive its first 5 years, and won't get that expensive again for at least another 10 years unless you got a lemon or a gm.

I have a 2005 Mercury sable, other than tires, brakes, batteries and fluids I have not put a dime into it. I have a 1993 mustang, I had to replace a water pump this year, $500, and a new convertible top a few years ago for $800. Other than that it has just been tires, brakes, batteries, fluids. Neither will depreciate another dime. Cost to run those two cars combined is $6,000 less a year than a single new car. (So think about it, in 10 years you can save twice the cost of a vehicle)

The reason I ditched the 2003 sienna for a new 2015 sienna was because o2 sensors kept failing, or the computer thought it was, and it was annoying because Toyota shuts down abs and vsc when the check engine light is on. Still would have been cheaper to keep the 2003, but annoyance and safety made me switch. Used vans at that time were not much cheaper than new, and few people keep vehicles as clean as me, used vans were nasty beat on the inside when just a few years old.

Case by case.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I agree a couple grand savings buying used isn't worth it to me, depends on the car when or if used is a value. I bought a new van several years ago because used was not much of a value, and am looking at a new truck now because used does not seem like much of a value, but holding onto cars until repairs become more expensive than a payment will put you waaay ahead in the long run. Not sure what you are driving, it takes a loooong time for maintenance costs to be greater than a car payment.

First 5 years you lose 60%+ of your value. The next 10 years you lose 30%. You never lose the last 10% if you keep it running. A car is the most expensive its first 5 years, and won't get that expensive again for at least another 10 years unless you got a lemon or a gm.

I have a 2005 Mercury sable, other than tires, brakes, batteries and fluids I have not put a dime into it. I have a 1993 mustang, I had to replace a water pump this year, $500, and a new convertible top a few years ago for $800. Other than that it has just been tires, brakes, batteries, fluids. Neither will depreciate another dime. Cost to run those two cars combined is $6,000 less a year than a single new car. (So think about it, in 10 years you can save twice the cost of a vehicle)

The reason I ditched the 2003 sienna for a new 2015 sienna was because o2 sensors kept failing, or the computer thought it was, and it was annoying because Toyota shuts down abs and vsc when the check engine light is on. Still would have been cheaper to keep the 2003, but annoyance and safety made me switch. Used vans at that time were not much cheaper than new, and few people keep vehicles as clean as me, used vans were nasty beat on the inside when just a few years old.

Case by case.
I agree but modern cars are way different than those old low tech cars you mention. Tons of computers and electronics that surely go bad at some point make owning a new car long term much more risky. New cars offer rapidly growing tech, safety and efficiency that weigh in. This is not the 80s or 90s or early 2000s when cars were the same for long periods. Personally I am willing to pay more for modern advantages. The days of buying old and holding do not interest me regardless if I save money. My life has a value and I prefer to be in upgraded and updated vehicles.
 

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I agree but modern cars are way different than those old low tech cars you mention. Tons of computers and electronics that surely go bad at some point make owning a new car long term much more risky. New cars offer rapidly growing tech, safety and efficiency that weigh in. This is not the 80s or 90s or early 2000s when cars were the same for long periods. Personally I am willing to pay more for modern advantages. The days of buying old and holding do not interest me regardless if I save money. My life has a value and I prefer to be in upgraded and updated vehicles.
Old cars didn't have many electronic devices, but they had engines, transmissions, carburetors, and suspension systems that would be significantly worn by 100,000 miles. The engine may leak and the transmission may slip, but the radio still plays!

New cars will easily make it to 200,000 to 300,000 miles with little more than scheduled maintenance and replacement of consumable items. The navigation system may no longer be updated, but the engine doesn't smoke and the transmission shifts smoothly.

The transmission on a 1975 Chevrolet will almost certainly need rebuilding by 150,000 miles.

The radio on your 2020 Honda will probably still be playing long after the vehicle is rusted out and headed to the recycler.

Over the decades, we've exchanged mechanical wear that is nearly guaranteed to happen with electronic failures that may or may not happen. I'd argue that even with all the electronics used in modern vehicles, they are much more reliable and longer-lasting than they used to be. Automobiles have become very refined and complex and our expectations have become higher. Today. we get aggravated when Apple CarPlay doesn't connect or because there is no volume knob. 40 years ago, there were no smartphones and you'd be lucky if the car even came with a radio to need a volume knob!
 

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Great discussion! I've always been a new car guy. I have been told so many times about how stupid I am and I should buy used or get a beater, etc.

Here's the rub. I love cars! No one chastises people who have country club memberships, or season tickets for a sports team, or a wine cellar. I see my vehicles as something I enjoy. I drive about 20k-25k miles a year, so I'm in the car a LOT. If I only drove 6k a year...sure...I'd just get a clapped out Toyota Corrola or Camry.

Now...if you're broke, in debt up to your eyeballs, and you can't afford the payment....that's stupid. But I can afford it as I choose to spend my disposable income on a new vehicle. I don't give a crap about going on fancy vacations, I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't gamble, I don't golf, I don't hunt, I don't fish....my only hobbies are motorcycling and playing music....and those toys are paid for.
 

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I, for one, come to enthusiast care sites to be told I should not buy new cars ! (for the record, I go both ways and own both beaters and new). And, er um, toys.

I love how Honda has left us so far out to the wind regarding the 2020 that we wonder if buying new at all is even a good idea...
 

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Who are you kidding? That's the MOST expensive hobby ever!! Even if paid for, it NEVER ends... NEVER.. LOL
#askMeHowIknow :ROFLMAO:
I've done the old trade bikes every year and buy every farkle and widget for the bike. Now that I'm older, wiser, and have collected all the gear and crap anyone could ever need....I just enjoy riding. Other than oil changes and gas I haven't spend a dollar on my bike or gear in a good while.
 

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I've done the old trade bikes every year and buy every farkle and widget for the bike. Now that I'm older, wiser, and have collected all the gear and crap anyone could ever need....I just enjoy riding. Other than oil changes and gas I haven't spend a dollar on my bike or gear in a good while.
If you are not going through tires, you aren't riding it much.
 

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Interesting conversation on the new vs used vehicles. Really depends on the type of vehicle, but in general new is almost always a bad call financially. Ridgeline and Tacoma hold their value pretty well so they are sort of exceptions, but the Ridgeline less so. I bought a 2017 RTL-E white pearl w/ 23k miles used 2 months ago as a certified pre-owned w/ brand new Nitto terra grapplers, tinted windows, lighted running boards, mud flaps, the BE rims, wheel locks, and an "extra" alarm (didn't pay for that one lol) for 32,000. In my area, when I bought, you couldn't buy a new 2019 for less than 38k and doesn't have any of the extras. My bumper to bumper is good through 2021 and my powertrain is through 100k.

That 6000+ in savings, when you account for the extras and tires, goes to over 7000 when you include taxes in my state. That is a crap ton of depreciation I did not pay and isn't even accounting for savings on interest over the period of a loan. Also, many credit unions offer new car loan rates on used cars only 2 or 3 years old. I got mine at 3.44% (lowest new car rate in my area).

When you figure that w/ a 60 month loan I am paying close to 120 less per month by buying used and am instead able to invest that into my 401k, it made zero sense to buy new. 6000 over 35 years w/ compounding interest is a 60k to 300k+ difference in a retirement fund depending on market conditions. The impact is obviously much less in your 40's and 50's (and way greater if you are in your 20's), but in your 20's and 30's your new vs used decision adds up to a gigantic difference if you instead invest in your future and "settle" for a like new 2 year old vehicle (in my case at least). Food for thought!

Recommend the moneyguy show podcast or youtube channel if this 401k stuff is a foreign language.
 

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I'm a believer in keeping a vehicle a long time. When I do buy new, I will buy during closeout sales at the end of the model year and have also bought leftovers from the previous year in Jan/Feb.

My wife has been driving a 2005 Dodge Ram 1500 since I bought it new in October 2015. It has 165,000 miles and now has a lifter issue. It's worth a lot more to me than if I sold it, so I'm going to install a performance cam, new lifters, new supporting parts, and long tube headers. Interior is in great shape other than driver seat cushion which I can remedy and the paint needs some TLC. I plan on keeping it forever.

She loves her new Ridgeline and our plan is to keep it a long, long time. She's earned a new vehicle and likes the AWD, midsize, and ease of navigating her office's parking garage. I've always had my eye on the Ridgeline since it returned for 2017 as an option for her. Never thought I'd get the kind of deal I just got.
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
Interesting conversation on the new vs used vehicles. Really depends on the type of vehicle, but in general new is almost always a bad call financially. Ridgeline and Tacoma hold their value pretty well so they are sort of exceptions, but the Ridgeline less so. I bought a 2017 RTL-E white pearl w/ 23k miles used 2 months ago as a certified pre-owned w/ brand new Nitto terra grapplers, tinted windows, lighted running boards, mud flaps, the BE rims, wheel locks, and an "extra" alarm (didn't pay for that one lol) for 32,000. In my area, when I bought, you couldn't buy a new 2019 for less than 38k and doesn't have any of the extras. My bumper to bumper is good through 2021 and my powertrain is through 100k.

That 6000+ in savings, when you account for the extras and tires, goes to over 7000 when you include taxes in my state. That is a crap ton of depreciation I did not pay and isn't even accounting for savings on interest over the period of a loan. Also, many credit unions offer new car loan rates on used cars only 2 or 3 years old. I got mine at 3.44% (lowest new car rate in my area).

When you figure that w/ a 60 month loan I am paying close to 120 less per month by buying used and am instead able to invest that into my 401k, it made zero sense to buy new. 6000 over 35 years w/ compounding interest is a 60k to 300k+ difference in a retirement fund depending on market conditions. The impact is obviously much less in your 40's and 50's (and way greater if you are in your 20's), but in your 20's and 30's your new vs used decision adds up to a gigantic difference if you instead invest in your future and "settle" for a like new 2 year old vehicle (in my case at least). Food for thought!

Recommend the moneyguy show podcast or youtube channel if this 401k stuff is a foreign language.
You can drive a 20 year old vehicle, live in the cheapest apartment you can find, work at McDonalds and easily afford both. One thing I have learned In my 50 years, saving for retirement works for banks, brokerage accounts and financial planners. As you get older you realize life is short. Skimping when your are young thinking you are going to retire rich is a lie. Having money in your youth, enjoying life, having nice things is your reward for working. Saving and shrimping your entire life for a big pile of money at the end to give to your kids (because if you skimped your whole life you aren't gonna spend it at 65) is great for them. I realized the con game long ago. Nothing wrong with saving etc, but you need health, you need energy, and you need to actually spend that money, which you will never do after worshipping the stash you have for decades. Your habits won't change if you have 100k or 5 million saved. See it every day. And plus factor in a market crash every 15 years or so where you lose 30-40%, it's a suckers game to invest, not saying you won't have money, just saying enjoy life as you live and don't wait for an unknown future. Don't go broke over committing, but also don't buy the cheapest of everything to save. Health, family and friends are your true wealth.
 

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You can drive a 20 year old vehicle, live in the cheapest apartment you can find, work at McDonalds and easily afford both. One thing I have learned In my 50 years, saving for retirement works for banks, brokerage accounts and financial planners. As you get older you realize life is short. Skimping when your are young thinking you are going to retire rich is a lie. Having money in your youth, enjoying life, having nice things is your reward for working. Saving and shrimping your entire life for a big pile of money at the end to give to your kids (because if you skimped your whole life you aren't gonna spend it at 65) is great for them. I realized the con game long ago. Nothing wrong with saving etc, but you need health, you need energy, and you need to actually spend that money, which you will never do after worshipping the stash you have for decades. Your habits won't change if you have 100k or 5 million saved. See it every day. And plus factor in a market crash every 15 years or so where you lose 30-40%, it's a suckers game to invest, not saying you won't have money, just saying enjoy life as you live and don't wait for an unknown future. Don't go broke over committing, but also don't buy the cheapest of everything to save. Health, family and friends are your true wealth.
We'll said. I myself try to buy what I want and desire as long as I don't neglect my responsibility or my son's care.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
 

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You can drive a 20 year old vehicle, live in the cheapest apartment you can find, work at McDonalds and easily afford both. One thing I have learned In my 50 years, saving for retirement works for banks, brokerage accounts and financial planners. As you get older you realize life is short. Skimping when your are young thinking you are going to retire rich is a lie. Having money in your youth, enjoying life, having nice things is your reward for working. Saving and shrimping your entire life for a big pile of money at the end to give to your kids (because if you skimped your whole life you aren't gonna spend it at 65) is great for them. I realized the con game long ago. Nothing wrong with saving etc, but you need health, you need energy, and you need to actually spend that money, which you will never do after worshipping the stash you have for decades. Your habits won't change if you have 100k or 5 million saved. See it every day. And plus factor in a market crash every 15 years or so where you lose 30-40%, it's a suckers game to invest, not saying you won't have money, just saying enjoy life as you live and don't wait for an unknown future. Don't go broke over committing, but also don't buy the cheapest of everything to save. Health, family and friends are your true wealth.
AMEN!!!

Money is only worth something when you spend it.
 

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My feeling is that if you bring a child into this world you are responsible for that person for the rest of your life and grandchildren extend that obligation. That is why I try to live a frugal life and I'm not into conspicuous consumption.
 

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You can drive a 20 year old vehicle, live in the cheapest apartment you can find, work at McDonalds and easily afford both. One thing I have learned In my 50 years, saving for retirement works for banks, brokerage accounts and financial planners. As you get older you realize life is short. Skimping when your are young thinking you are going to retire rich is a lie. Having money in your youth, enjoying life, having nice things is your reward for working. Saving and shrimping your entire life for a big pile of money at the end to give to your kids (because if you skimped your whole life you aren't gonna spend it at 65) is great for them. I realized the con game long ago. Nothing wrong with saving etc, but you need health, you need energy, and you need to actually spend that money, which you will never do after worshipping the stash you have for decades. Your habits won't change if you have 100k or 5 million saved. See it every day. And plus factor in a market crash every 15 years or so where you lose 30-40%, it's a suckers game to invest, not saying you won't have money, just saying enjoy life as you live and don't wait for an unknown future. Don't go broke over committing, but also don't buy the cheapest of everything to save. Health, family and friends are your true wealth.
Lol, wouldn't call a barely used 30k truck skimping or the cheapest thing you can buy. Paying the first couple year's depreciation in a vehicle in the vast majority of cases is a huge waste of money. If you actually want to retire comfortably one day and not work until your dead it's idiotic to not plan for your retirement. And yes the market falls, but historically over the average time one invests the rate of return is 10% per year. I get what you are saying, but you need a balance or you will be in a world of hurt at 65. I'll gladly let someone else pay 7k towards my truck that looks brand spanking new every day of the week.
 

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You can drive a 20 year old vehicle, live in the cheapest apartment you can find, work at McDonalds and easily afford both. One thing I have learned In my 50 years, saving for retirement works for banks, brokerage accounts and financial planners. As you get older you realize life is short. Skimping when your are young thinking you are going to retire rich is a lie. Having money in your youth, enjoying life, having nice things is your reward for working. Saving and shrimping your entire life for a big pile of money at the end to give to your kids (because if you skimped your whole life you aren't gonna spend it at 65) is great for them. I realized the con game long ago. Nothing wrong with saving etc, but you need health, you need energy, and you need to actually spend that money, which you will never do after worshipping the stash you have for decades. Your habits won't change if you have 100k or 5 million saved. See it every day. And plus factor in a market crash every 15 years or so where you lose 30-40%, it's a suckers game to invest, not saying you won't have money, just saying enjoy life as you live and don't wait for an unknown future. Don't go broke over committing, but also don't buy the cheapest of everything to save. Health, family and friends are your true wealth.
Just can't do it wasn't raised that is way. My mother in law is the same way as you, causes a lot of feuds between the bride and me. II wish I could leave more to my kids but college and private school these days will cost close to 700K. This was another source of contention with the bride as I'm a believer in state schools but my youngest kid is going to an IVY now so we'll see if I'm wrong.

Let me give you an example. Years ago, the bank I worked for gave everyone stock options as a one time event. One of my co-workers cashed them out they day he got them and went on a cruise. I waited a couple of years and used it as a down payment on my first house. When I graduated from college, my parents gave me a 2k gift and opened up an IRA for me. The next year I added another 1k. It's now 33 years later and that is worth 140k now. What worries me is long term care, that's the elephant in the room, I guess when the time comes I pray it's quick.
 
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