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I know there were a few that had mentioned they were holding out on purchasing a new Ridgeline because they expect the 10AT to come soon.

Well the new Odyssey high end models will get the new 10AT, but not the Ridgeline or Pilot for 2018. The issue has to do with AWD vehicles. Honda doesn't have the AWD power transfer system ready yet is what I hear.

I don't think it will be ready for 2019 either... so I think the 2020 model year would be the first opportunity for Honda to introduce the 10AT in the Ridgeline... but I have no idea if Honda intends to use the 10AT in the Ridgeline or not.

Logic says that as they get the manufacturing costs down on the 10AT they'll want to eliminate the 6AT ASAP so they can get the fuel economy numbers up.
 

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I remember when I was a kid I thought it was cool to be able to shift gears on my bike. But do we really need 10 gears in an auto trans? Thinking back, Turbo 350-400's were nearly bullet proof. Same with the C6. Then we added a gear and called them 700r4 or 4AOD (I forget what Ford called it). Early versions of both struggled...got better with time. Honda struggled with their early 4spd autos. Finally got that down and jumped to a 5spd auto. Early of those struggled...they seem to have finally gotten them right, then added gears. Now were ready to add more. I just don't get it. Leave well enough alone.

We drive to Tahoe a lot. Sometimes we drive a friend's 2016 Tahoe to Tahoe. I believe has a 6spd in it. anyway, in the hills...doesn't stop shifting. The transmission literally has no idea what gear to be in and just hunts around for miles. Enough already! OK, lame rant over.
 

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I remember when I was a kid I thought it was cool to be able to shift gears on my bike. But do we really need 10 gears in an auto trans? Thinking back, Turbo 350-400's were nearly bullet proof. Same with the C6. Then we added a gear and called them 700r4 or 4AOD (I forget what Ford called it). Early versions of both struggled...got better with time. Honda struggled with their early 4spd autos. Finally got that down and jumped to a 5spd auto. Early of those struggled...they seem to have finally gotten them right, then added gears. Now were ready to add more. I just don't get it. Leave well enough alone.

We drive to Tahoe a lot. Sometimes we drive a friend's 2016 Tahoe to Tahoe. I believe has a 6spd in it. anyway, in the hills...doesn't stop shifting. The transmission literally has no idea what gear to be in and just hunts around for miles. Enough already! OK, lame rant over.
My sentiments exactly. Just took our first long journey with the 6sp and it is flawless so far. Our 5spd Pilot is nice but this is definitely an upgrade.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Do we need more gears? Yes. If you swapped out the 6AT with the 10AT you would get significantly higher performance and fuel economy. The lower launch gearing would leave a 6AT equipped Ridgeline in the dust. And at just about any speed you will be getting better fuel economy.

Honda improved the 6AT shift speeds for 2016, but it's still very slow compared to the 10AT. You notice gear hunting not only because of limited gearing but also because of the long shift times. With the 10AT you won't notice the gear hunting nearly as much because the gearing changes are closer ratios and the shift time is much shorter. Unless you're looking at the tachometer you probably wouldn't know it shifted.

Also the 10AT is able to skip shift, so it will only use the number of gears that are needed. It doesn't need to use all 10.

The ZF 9HP never fulfilled its potential due to the abrupt dog clutch shifts. It had the potential to offer 15% better fuel economy and better performance but due to the integration of the dog clutches customers didn't like the way it shifted and it resulted in nearly all the gains were programmed out to smooth out the shifts. It looked good on paper, but the reality is that the mixing of clutch types caused a lot of problems. I've driven vehicles from three different manufacturers that use the ZF 9-speed and there's a noticeable difference in shifting logic, but none are very good. The Honda 10AT does't suffer from these problems.

The jointly developed GM and Ford 10-speed is out now and although I've never driven one I hear very good things about it. Will it have some problems? Probably, but that's the case with just about every new product introduced (just ask Samsung).

The Honda 10AT has already been on the road for a while (I don't remember the date, but it seems like a couple of years ago). Those that have tested generally use the term "smooth" as the first word to describe the transmission. That's an indication to me that Honda may have done things right... I wouldn't use the term "smooth" to describe any other Honda traditional automatic transmission I've driven.

And in other news I think the new Odyssey will be the only Honda vehicle to get the 10AT for at least a year. From what I hear Honda is still contractually bound to use the ZF 9HP for some period of time (I've not heard any specific dates).
 

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Thinking back, Turbo 350-400's were nearly bullet proof.
While the Turbo 350-400's were nearly bullet proof, the two speed powerglides were bullet proof. Only transmission you can drop into low gear at 60 mph and not leave parts all over the highway.

What many don't know is they still make the Powerglide. About C$2200 brand new, but the race shops sell a ton of them.
 

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I'm sure load capabilities play a factor in a 6 gear set v. a 10 gear
 
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I'm sure load capabilities play a factor in a 6 gear set v. a 10 gear
Well generally the higher the load the more gears so you can stay in the proper power band of the engine. At least for motor vehicles. Ships generally don't have any "transmission" so to speak.

I don't think Honda has released the torque limits for the 10AT but I suspect it has a high enough limit for all current engines.

Since the 10AT will have planetary gearsets the clutch size should be significantly larger than the 5AT or 6AT. Those transmission have small clutch area and that's why Honda runs them at such high pressures. The 10AT will probably run cooler and at lower fluid pressures.
 

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Thanks for this important update, Joe.

It makes sense that Honda would slowly phase in the 10AT. Anyone holding out to see one in the G2 Ridgeline will likely be waiting at least until the mid-model refresh (2020 or 2021?) Maybe even until the G3 arrives.

It will be interesting to learn what the torque limits are and whether Honda designed it with any margin to accept higher torque engines. I still hold out hope for a torquier engine better suited for towing at some point in the future (G3?) Coupled with the 10AT, that would be an attractive offering.
 

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Well generally the higher the load the more gears so you can stay in the proper power band of the engine. At least for motor vehicles. Ships generally don't have any "transmission" so to speak.

I don't think Honda has released the torque limits for the 10AT but I suspect it has a high enough limit for all current engines.

Since the 10AT will have planetary gearsets the clutch size should be significantly larger than the 5AT or 6AT. Those transmission have small clutch area and that's why Honda runs them at such high pressures. The 10AT will probably run cooler and at lower fluid pressures.
I should have been more specific to "load capabilities"...I was referring to hauling load, load in the bed and load towing. Not engine hp/tq.

Payload capacity could be the issue with integration to the RL platform
 

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Honda's automatics have always been weird on the inside. More like automated manuals than conventional automatics. Apparently, Honda did this early on to avoid having to license technology from others. I wonder what changed in Honda that lead them to make a more conventional automatic with planetary gears. Maybe they reached some practical torque or size or limit to the number of gears in their current transmissions?

csimo, you seem pretty connected. What do you know about this Honda patent from last year for an 11-speed, triple-clutch automatic?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I should have been more specific to "load capabilities"...I was referring to hauling load, load in the bed and load towing. Not engine hp/tq.

Payload capacity could be the issue with integration to the RL platform
All the transmission cares about is the torque, and engine torque really isn't the number. The limiting factor is the torque at the point the converter stalls. There are few, if any, automatic transmission that use the full torque the engine produces. The old trick to find out was to brake torque the vehicle (full brake and full throttle) and see what the RPM is... then you look at the torque produced at that RPM and you know the maximum torque before the converter stalls out. You can't really use that trick today.

The load in the bed is no different than pulling a trailer, etc. The transmission doesn't know.
 

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All the transmission cares about is the torque, and engine torque really isn't the number. The limiting factor is the torque at the point the converter stalls. There are few, if any, automatic transmission that use the full torque the engine produces. The old trick to find out was to brake torque the vehicle (full brake and full throttle) and see what the RPM is... then you look at the torque produced at that RPM and you know the maximum torque before the converter stalls out. You can't really use that trick today.

The load in the bed is no different than pulling a trailer, etc. The transmission doesn't know.
Transmission would know the difference between moving a 4,500 lb RL v. a 4,500 lb RL + 5,000 lb trailer...

That's my point. 10 speed transmission may not be up to the task of moving 9500 +lbs
 

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csimo, you seem pretty connected. What do you know about this Honda patent from last year for an 11-speed, triple-clutch automatic?
I don't know any more about it than you do. Honda transmissions are designed and engineered in Japan so even the people at HRA often don't know much about those things either. Honda is very compartmentalized.

I love dual-clutch transmissions, but they really do need another clutch so a triple-clutch sounds great. To date there are few dual-clutch transmissions used in high torque applications (other than racing). Most are still wet clutch designs but the future is in dry clutches in my opinion.

Honda's "dual-clutch" uses a torque converter and I would call it a hybrid... not a true-dual clutch. The performance and fuel economy gains are in the elimination of the torque converter. So to have one with a torque converter is pretty pointless.

Some of the dual-clutch transmissions out there have very fast shift times... much faster than any conventional automatic. I suppose it's possible to build a transmission that can mechanically keep up with the logic and eliminate the need for a third clutch, but so far I haven't driven one that does. That's why a triple-clutch would be great. You would have two options from the current gear.
 

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Transmission would know the difference between moving a 4,500 lb RL v. a 4,500 lb RL + 5,000 lb trailer...
We yes, but it doesn't matter where the weight is... no difference if it's in the bed or on a trailer.

I've stalled out a G1 a few times. Given the correct circumstances you're not going to move unless you reduce the load.
 

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We yes, but it doesn't matter where the weight is... no difference if it's in the bed or on a trailer.

I've stalled out a G1 a few times. Given the correct circumstances you're not going to move unless you reduce the load.
I'm talking durability and longevity of the 10AT transmission for the life of the vehicle... which is my assumption for Honda not integrating it into the RL (which needs to be able to move 9500+lbs).

You're referring to stall speed of the converter
 

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I'm talking durability and longevity of the 10AT transmission for the life of the vehicle... which is my assumption for Honda not integrating it into the RL (which needs to be able to move 9500+lbs).

You're referring to stall speed of the converter
There is no performance / towing capacity penalty for the 10AT in the F150 - it doesn't sound like there is an inherent design issue with adding more ratios and I would imagine Honda engineers are at least as capable as the ones from Ford and GM.

The 10AT is designed to be the replacement for the 6AT and ZF 9AT - the Pilot and MDX are near the same weight and have the same towing capability as the RL. So your assumption would mean that Honda/Acura is planning to decrease towing capacity across the board? I just don't see that as likely, especially since their competition in the same space like the Durango and Pathfinder (with a CVT no less) can all tow more.

Joe's explanation makes perfect sense - the Odyssey is the only application (other than the high-volume Accord) that uses the 3.5V6 that doesn't have AWD as an option.
 

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There is no performance / towing capacity penalty for the 10AT in the F150 - it doesn't sound like there is an inherent design issue with adding more ratios and I would imagine Honda engineers are at least as capable as the ones from Ford and GM.

The 10AT is designed to be the replacement for the 6AT and ZF 9AT - the Pilot and MDX are near the same weight and have the same towing capability as the RL. So your assumption would mean that Honda/Acura is planning to decrease towing capacity across the board? I just don't see that as likely, especially since their competition in the same space like the Durango and Pathfinder (with a CVT no less) can all tow more.

Joe's explanation makes perfect sense - the Odyssey is the only application (other than the high-volume Accord) that uses the 3.5V6 that doesn't have AWD as an option.
Comparing a 10spd from the rear wheel drive f150 platform (which was co-developed with GM) is not to plausible. Longitudinal engine and transmission setups are far superior in strength/durability to a transverse engine and transmission/differential setup that the 2018 Odyssey is.

You are correct. They wouldn't lower ratings on those vehicles due to the transmission. My assumption is the 10spd in Odyssey will be a step forward for Honda, but not applicable for for 2018 platforms like the RL/Pilot/MDX etc, that require higher towing and payload capacities. The article below says "It’s designed to be used in new Honda/Acura vehicles launching over the next ten years." So fair to say it will be further developed.

A Closer Look at the 2018 Honda Odyssey?s 10-Speed, Backseat Spy Cam - Motor Trend

Bottom-line: yes I do believe a potential 10 speed will be put in the ridgeline in the future. The odyssey based 10 speed, I do not believe will be the specific unit they use.
 

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I'm not really sure about the point you are trying to make Dojob?

Developing a new transmission is HUGELY expensive and Honda has pretty clearly stated that the 10at is their future transmission for what they call their "truck" line. Sure the one in the ODY might end up being a bit different in a few ways but the fundamental transmission will be the same and you can bet that Honda engineered it to handle the loads required by their entire "truck" lineup. I can't see them needing to do much in the way of rengineering just allow it handle the loads needed in an application like the Ridge. This would be ridiculously costly and simply wouldn't make much business sense. The "tough enough for the entire future lineup" engineering has almost surely already been done. . . .
Now as Joe is speculating, the attached transfer case required for AWD applications may still be in development.
 

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I'm not really sure about the point you are trying to make Dojob?
Just taking part in the conversation. Speculating and making assumptions just as you and others have.
 

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I'm only going to mention this once since it doesn't really apply to Honda's much.

Has anyone really seen the size difference between the Honda 10 and the Ford/GM 10 ? The Honda version isn't going to be capable of hauling loads like the Ford 10. It's far larger. I have seen the insides of the previous trannys used in both Ford and GM truck products. They are nothing like the designs from Honda and other Asian manufacturers. This was one thing that always bothered me about the Honda SUV lineup was that they appeared to be cheaply made when looking underneath the vehicles. And now we see pretty much all small SUV's made the same way now.

Steve
 
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