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My F150 with 470lbs of torque needed the 10 speed to handle it so I can tow 12k. So your thinking a 10 speed could not handle 280lbs of torque?
That was not was I saying, please read through the entire thread. You will see what i was implying.

No, the f150 didn't need a 10 speed to "handle" 470 lb ft of tq. If a 10 speed was "needed", diesel f350's would have them that have 9xx lb tq.

10 speed in any application...go-cart, car, truck is all efficiency based. MPG gains solely.

As stated earlier by myself and another. The longitudinal engine/transmission setup of the f150 is engineered vastly different from a transverse engine/engine/differential setup of the 2018 Odyssey. The unit's case, the bearings, the cogs, the clutches, the converter and the way everything handles the force exerted....these features are not setup on one shaft like the f150's. The odyssey's are arranged in array fashion, not on 1 common shaft. This the variance and weakness between the engineering.
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And it's not engine hp/tq numbers that directly correlate to the transmission handling "load". Its the hp/tq numbers, along with the weight of the vehicle, along with the hauling/towing needs.

There's transmissions that can handle 1000 hp in a 3500 lb car and they are not allowed/designed to tow/haul anything.

Again. As I stated earlier. I do believe the 10 speed similar to the odyssey's will make it to the RL just not anytime soon. Honda has a 10 yr implementation planned, my assumption is they'll take their time.
 

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Again. As I stated earlier. I do believe the 10 speed similar to the odyssey's will make it to the RL just not anytime soon. Honda has a 10 yr implementation planned, my assumption is they'll take their time.
I'm inclined to believe that it will take quite a while before seeing the 10AT in a Ridgeline, too.

The additional complexity of the 10AT is primarily intended to improve efficiency. The more efficient (average mpgs) Honda's fleet of vehicles is, the more credits it can sell to other manufacturers. Honda is making big money (over $600 million last year) simply by selling credits to other manufacturers.

Honda will get the most benefit from any improvement in efficiency, by putting that transmission in the highest-volume models first (Oddyssey, Accord, Pilot.)

There is less average-fleet-mpg penalty to continuing the 6-speed transmission in low-volume models like the Ridgeline. So the RL will be a low-priority vehicle for getting the 10 AT.

My new prediction is we won't see it until the G3 arrives (unless the G2 has a 9-year product cycle like the G1, then maybe at the second refresh -- 2023??)
 

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I wasn't implying that the 10AT in the Ford/GM is the same in capacity or design as the 10AT in the Honda - my comparison was to say that there isn't any inherent reason why a Honda 10AT would be less capable than a Honda 6AT.

It would be ridiculous for Honda (or any manufacturer) to phase out a 6AT for a 10AT that would require them to lower tow ratings.

The 2017 Ody is rated for 3500lbs towing (the same as the FWD RL and Pilot) - is there any indication the 2018 Ody is going to be rated lower?
 

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Yes, whats the point about arguing that a longitudinal 10 speed designed for full size truck duty is a a more "robust" design than the transverse 10at designed for HONDA's truck fleet? How many 5at failures have we seen in the GenI Ridge (except for SMOD which has nothing to do with transmission toughness) in the 10 years it has been produced? Honda has desinged their new transmission to do the job it is intended for, just like the 5at and 6at that it will eventually replace. Forgetting the longitudinal orientation, would we want the porky weight, large size and undoubted higher internal losses from Ford's transmission??

It will be interesting to see how the 10at performs. Hopefully Honda has done their homework. The Ody will also be an excellent high volume real world test bed for it, to sort out any issues and reveal any weak areas. I agree that Honda will probably ignore the Ridge for a good while but I am hopefull that it will show in 2020 along with a number of other mild improvements in GenII.
 

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Continuing this discussion from a year ago, the 10AT is now in Accords with the 2.0T engine (273 lb-ft) in addition to the some Odysseys with the 3.5L (262 lb-ft). It is also used in the 2019 Acura RDX 2.0T (280 lb-ft), so there is now an AWD variant of the 10AT. What we don't have (yet?) is an AWD variant used with the 3.5L.

Last week, I bought a 2018 Accord with this transmission. I can confirm it's unlike any of Honda's previous automatics in both design and feel. Some of the things I've observed:

1. First gear is low. Really low. Perhaps a bit too low for the Accord, but great for truck use. Torque management is required in at least first and second gears to keep from melting the front tires off the rims after a short period of turbo lag in the Accord.

2. Gear changes are fast. Really fast.

3. Most gear changes are smooth. Really smooth. The 1-2 and 2-3 shifts are more noticeable, but mainly because they occur so quickly and early compared to the 6AT.

4. You hear and see gear changes at lower speeds, but during light to moderate acceleration or while cruising, you won't know when it shifts without looking at the tachometer as csimo stated.

5. The paddle shifters are very useful not only for spirited driving, but for engine braking.

6. At least in the Accord, manual downshifts are rev-matched - the PCM blips the throttle for a smooth shift.

7. The transmission does a great job at selecting and holding the best gear.

8. It doesn't "clunk" or "lurch" when coming to a stop the way the 6AT does.

Overall, the 10AT is an excellent first-attempt at Honda's first automatic tranmission that uses planetary gears (like most automatics) instead of sliding gears (like manual transmissions). I believe this will make a fine transmission for the Ridgeline. With such smoothness and close ratios, it almost feels CVT-like at times.
 

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^^^Strong praise for the 10AT, but it's starting to sound like this was mostly a performance achievement for Honda engineering rather than a significant improvement in fuel efficiency (no mpg gain with the 10AT Ody). Maybe the boost to gas mileage for the Ody/Pilot/RL platform will come with the 10AT mated to a turbo 4?

I can see the 10AT enhancing the RL's utility with better low range and engine braking capabilities. Hopefully, Honda won't wait until Gen3 to grace the RL with the 10AT, but I'm not holding my breath.
 

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19 Pilot stays with six or nine speed depending on trim level.
Sense that Honda is happiest with the six speed in the RL. Or perhaps
using the six rather than the nine offsets some of the high cost of building the RL in such small numbers.
 

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The 9-speed ZF has been a turd of a transmission in every car it has ever been put in and all the software updates in the world can't fix its inherent problems. If it had been the standard transmission in the RL I would have passed on it with no regrets. The manufacturers aren't helping by putting in a final drive so tall (for EPA numbers) that the transmission hunts all of the time and rarely goes into 9th gear. On the Cherokee forums the running complaint is that people don't reach 9th until they are doing 80 mph downhill.

I'd be happy to see how the 3.5 or 2.0 / 10AT would do in the RL but I'm not encouraged by the RDX towing capacity of 1500lbs - at nearly 4000lbs of curb weight and a strong chassis the RDX should be capable of much more.
 

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I'd be happy to see how the 3.5 or 2.0 / 10AT would do in the RL but I'm not encouraged by the RDX towing capacity of 1500lbs - at nearly 4000lbs of curb weight and a strong chassis the RDX should be capable of much more.
Don't know that I would read too much into that though. The current Odyssey has the 10sp in the top two trims and a max tow rating of 3500lb; That tow rating is 500lb more than the 9sp trims and 2k more than the RDX.
 

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There is a LOT more that goes into suggested tow ratings than just the capability of the transmission and engine. Weight of the vehicle, chassis strength, utilization of Class I, II, III, IV, etc. hitch - these all play a factor. I would venture a guess that 99.8% of RDX owners will likely never tow with their vehicles with the exception of possibly a small travel trailer. The most use the hitch would ever get would be for a hitch-mounted bike rack.

The 10AT should find its way into a 2020 refresh of the RL whether it's only in the upper level trims like the Odyssey or over the whole lineup. The tried, true and trusty 6AT will eventually be phased out, but it's likely the best transmission Honda has ever made. The engineering and development costs have already been vastly "paid for".
 
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The 10AT should find its way into a 2020 refresh of the RL whether it's only in the upper level trims like the Odyssey or over the whole lineup. The tried, true and trusty 6AT will eventually be phased out, but it's likely the best transmission Honda has ever made. The engineering and development costs have already been vastly "paid for".
I don't have as much confidence in that as you do. :(

The Pilot just had its MMC for 2019 and carries on with the same 6-speed and 9-speed transmissions, so the 3rd generation Pilot will likely die with the same transmissions it was born with.

Considering the Ridgeline shadows the Pilot, I don't see the Ridgeline getting the 10-speed for the 2nd generation. We've still not seen the 10-speed paired with a V6 in an AWD application. I don't believe the V6 will surrender to a turbo four in Honda's PRO vehicles (Pilot, Ridgeline, Odyssey) at least through the current generations whether due to technical limitations or customer perception.

The 2.0T is capable of producing more torque than the 3.5L, but demanding its maximum output for brief situations such as merging or passing is quite different than asking it to pull an additional 5,000 lbs. up a 7% grade for eight miles while it's pushing 22 PSI of air into the engine. :)
 

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I'm waiting with interest to see the arrival if the new Pilot SWB/Passport.
My preference is to see a Pilot width size version of the new RDX. Which is almost as long today as the first gen Pilot. Haven't driven anything with the 2.0t in it. My bias favors the J35 until the timing belt change service needs doing...
 

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I don't have as much confidence in that as you do. :(

The Pilot just had its MMC for 2019 and carries on with the same 6-speed and 9-speed transmissions, so the 3rd generation Pilot will likely die with the same transmissions it was born with.

Considering the Ridgeline shadows the Pilot, I don't see the Ridgeline getting the 10-speed for the 2nd generation. We've still not seen the 10-speed paired with a V6 in an AWD application. I don't believe the V6 will surrender to a turbo four in Honda's PRO vehicles (Pilot, Ridgeline, Odyssey) at least through the current generations whether due to technical limitations or customer perception.

The 2.0T is capable of producing more torque than the 3.5L, but demanding its maximum output for brief situations such as merging or passing is quite different than asking it to pull an additional 5,000 lbs. up a 7% grade for eight miles while it's pushing 22 PSI of air into the engine. :)
Being that the Pilot is a year ahead of the RL as far as updates go, I am doing a bit of wishful thinking in that we will see the 10AT in both vehicles for the 2020 model year in some form. The 10AT has been in the works for a very long time and I have to think that the engineers at Honda have figured out how to make it work with an AWD system and larger amounts of torque no matter if it's a V6 or turbo 4 engine. Nevertheless, if it doesn't happen for 2020, I foresee a fairly major update happening to both the Pilot and RL in 2022. Maybe then? Who knows...
 

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So, I was on the Alex on Autos livestream today and I asked the question how much longer do you think honda will keep the platform under the mdx/ridgeline/pilot/odyssey? I heard it was the limiting factor in the V6+AWD+10 speed setup. He answered that what he heard from Honda was that they have a contractual agreement for the 9sp for an "unknown" number of them (guess they won't tell that). The way he responded seemed to also imply that it could have been a big order and may be around for a bit.

I don't have any sources from Honda so I can't verify this either way.

I know I saw another user say that it was cost that was keeping it from other vehicles? Maybe it was the cost of canceling the ZF contract early, LoL.
 

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Discussion Starter #36
Here's what I was told. Original development of the Honda 10AT failed to account for AWD/4WD applications. Engineering work was ordered to develop the proper transfer case. That development is completed.

I was also told that Honda entered into a contract with ZF for their 9HP transmission and as stated above may be in place for a while.

The other issue is cost. The ZF 9HP is in a lot of vehicles other than just Honda. The cost of the transmission is much lower than Honda's own 10AT.

So despite low customer satisfaction with the ZF 9HP it may be around for a while. I do not know anything specific about the contract.

-Joe
 

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Here's what I was told. Original development of the Honda 10AT failed to account for AWD/4WD applications. Engineering work was ordered to develop the proper transfer case. That development is completed.
Did you mean to include for V6 applications since the 10AT has been in the 2019 RDX with AWD since last summer?
 

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I wonder if this whole ZF fiasco will make OEMs rethink 3rd party transmissions in some applications. I know 3rd party transmission manufacturers have been around for a while but I don't remember such a resounding rejection of a specific model.
 

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I wonder if this whole ZF fiasco will make OEMs rethink 3rd party transmissions in some applications. I know 3rd party transmission manufacturers have been around for a while but I don't remember such a resounding rejection of a specific model.
FCA, for one, likely benefitted from the use of ZF 8HP and 9HP transmissions compared to Chrysler's TorqueFlite and Ultradrive transmissions.

Honda began development of the 10AT around 2011-2012. My best guess is that competition, the time it took to develop their first automatic with planetary gears, and lack of manufacturing resources to make enough 10AT's for all applications pretty much forced Honda to outsource. I'd wager a guess that Honda outsourced the 9HP with clenched teeth.

The 9HP isn't unreliable, but it shifts "funny" due in part to the use of dog clutches for some gears. Several software tweaks intended to bring a more traditional, consistent shift feel erased many of the fuel economy advantages. The latest software and hardware changes are an improvement and I'd be hard pressed to choose the 10AT over the ZF 9HP at this point - particularly given my personal experience with two 10AT's.

The ZF 8HP, on the other hand, feels great to me. It's buttery smooth in BMW's and lightning fast in the Hellcat.
 
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