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2009 Ridgeline RTL (with nav) in Bali Blue Pearl
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I wonder if this whole ZF fiasco will make OEMs rethink 3rd party transmissions in some applications. I know 3rd party transmission manufacturers have been around for a while but I don't remember such a resounding rejection of a specific model.
It's probably just the 9 speed version for the 8 speed ZF units used on Dodge and Ram vehicles are fantastic! I'm glad they went with ZF for those transmissions vs building their own or going with another manufacturer or partnership for it really is a good transmission design, in my opinion.
 

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Something doesn't make sense about the 10 speed. When looking at the Honda fleet, they spend billions on a plant in Mexico for the CVT's which account for the bulk of its fleet in Accords, CRV's and Civics, etc, understand that. But why develop a 10 speed for 2wd V6's only while knowing that they were contractually committed to the 9 speed for as long as they would have a V6 AWD around. Does the end of the 9 Speed mean the end of the V6? I think it does, just drop the 10 speed in a bunch of 4 banger turbos and costs will decrease. I think the development of the transfer case mentioned earlier will be for the 3.0 turbo V6 AWD. That's going to be the one that we all want but won't be easily attainable unlike a 2.7 from Ford.
 

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Discussion Starter #43
Something doesn't make sense about the 10 speed. When looking at the Honda fleet, they spend billions on a plant in Mexico for the CVT's which account for the bulk of its fleet in Accords, CRV's and Civics, etc, understand that. But why develop a 10 speed for 2wd V6's only while knowing that they were contractually committed to the 9 speed for as long as they would have a V6 AWD around. Does the end of the 9 Speed mean the end of the V6? I think it does, just drop the 10 speed in a bunch of 4 banger turbos and costs will decrease. I think the development of the transfer case mentioned earlier will be for the 3.0 turbo V6 AWD. That's going to be the one that we all want but won't be easily attainable unlike a 2.7 from Ford.
The Honda 10AT was in development long before Honda entered into the ZF 9HP deal. ZF brought the 9HP to market fast and even built their own plant to make them at an attractive price. Honda needed the 9HP to remain competitive and CAFE. Unfortunately in reality the 9HP didn't result in the fuel economy improvements expected (15%).

As mentioned there have been many software "improvements" to modify the shift quality of the 9HP and to fix a parking pawl issue. From what I was told, these "improvements" took most of all of the fuel economy expectations out of the transmission. They softened shifts, changed shift patterns, etc.

The Honda 10AT is a good, solid transmission. It does offer both fuel economy and performance improvements. I have never looked at the production release numbers, but two identically equipped cars with the exception that one had the 6AT and the other the 10AT proved that the 10AT car will run off and leave the 6AT equipped car. It's was pretty dramatic.

-Joe
 

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The 6 speed in my RTL-E is one of the best transmissions I have ever owned. Hate to see it replace with any 9 or 10 speed, especially if it is a bad one!
I bought the 2017 RTL-E a few weeks after my brother bought the 2017 Pilot (Touring?) My brother despises the automatic shutoff at traffic lights. It can be disabled manually, but it resets every time the vehicle is shut off. I presume that this feature is included with the 10-speed. For that reason, I am happy that I have the "simple" six-speed. :smile:
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A few more data points:

Combined EPA fuel economy rating for a 2017 Odyssey with the 6AT was 22 MPG.

Combined EPA fuel economy rating for a 2018 Odyssey with the 9HP is...22 MPG.

Combined EPA fuel economy rating for a 2018 Odyssey with the 10AT is...22 MPG.

Car and Driver tested a FWD Pilot 6AT at 6.2 seconds 0-60 and an AWD 9HP at 6.1 seconds. The 6AT was faster to 100. A test performed by Edmunds between a 6AT and 9HP Pilot shows no significant difference in fuel economy.

Car and Driver tested a 2016 Accord 3.5L 6AT at 5.8 seconds 0-60 and a 2018 Accord 2.0T 10AT at 5.5 seconds. Combined fuel economy is 25 MPG for the 2016 and 26 MPG for the 2018.

I'm just not seeing evidence of any performance or efficiency improvements of these "many-speed" automatics that are of any real significance to owners. And, I can tell you first hand the 6AT is smoother than either the 9HP or 10AT.

Forget the 9HP. I'm hopeful the 10AT will eventually be a good transmission, but it still needs work.
 

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There could easily be a 2% mpg improvement that would not show up on the window stickers. That 2% could be monetarily significant to the manufacturer for CAFE reasons, or for carbon credit sales or trading reasons. Manufacturers have moved to 20- and 16-grade engine oils, 75w85 gear oils, and much thinner ATFs for a percent or two here and there. It is something an individual will never pick out in their personal driving, but which most certainly _is_ significant to nationwide and global pollution problems and energy use.

All that said, I’m not a big fan even of the 8-speed in my wife’s Camry. More shifts = more wear. That doesn’t mean these trannys will wear out faster, it just means the advances in durability don’t translate to overall vehicle durability in a 1:1 fashion.
 

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A few more data points:

Combined EPA fuel economy rating for a 2017 Odyssey with the 6AT was 22 MPG.

Combined EPA fuel economy rating for a 2018 Odyssey with the 9HP is...22 MPG.

Combined EPA fuel economy rating for a 2018 Odyssey with the 10AT is...22 MPG.

Car and Driver tested a FWD Pilot 6AT at 6.2 seconds 0-60 and an AWD 9HP at 6.1 seconds. The 6AT was faster to 100. A test performed by Edmunds between a 6AT and 9HP Pilot shows no significant difference in fuel economy.

Car and Driver tested a 2016 Accord 3.5L 6AT at 5.8 seconds 0-60 and a 2018 Accord 2.0T 10AT at 5.5 seconds. Combined fuel economy is 25 MPG for the 2016 and 26 MPG for the 2018.

I'm just not seeing evidence of any performance or efficiency improvements of these "many-speed" automatics that are of any real significance to owners. And, I can tell you first hand the 6AT is smoother than either the 9HP or 10AT.

Forget the 9HP. I'm hopeful the 10AT will eventually be a good transmission, but it still needs work.
I wonder if any mileage improvements have been made with the Ford/GM 10 speed. I had the ZF 8 speed in two FCA vehicles I owned. That was a great transmission. Almost imperceptible shifts.
 

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I wonder if any mileage improvements have been made with the Ford/GM 10 speed. I had the ZF 8 speed in two FCA vehicles I owned. That was a great transmission. Almost imperceptible shifts.
Ford says the 2.7L turbo V6 is the most popular F-150 engine. The combined EPA rating is 22 MPG for the 2017 that used a 6-speed. The combined EPA rating is also 22 MPG for the 2018 that uses a 10-speed.

Agreed - the ZF 8HP is a world-class transmission. It's too bad the 9HP is nothing like it. :)
 

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I would take the ZF8, but add an additional creeper gear to it that can be locked out until you need it. Yeah, that would make it a ZF9, but not the ZF9 that is currently in use.

It's too bad ZF/Honda can't/won't do this. It would be perfect in the Ridgeline and Passport.
 

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Ford says the 2.7L turbo V6 is the most popular F-150 engine. The combined EPA rating is 22 MPG for the 2017 that used a 6-speed. The combined EPA rating is also 22 MPG for the 2018 that uses a 10-speed.

Agreed - the ZF 8HP is a world-class transmission. It's too bad the 9HP is nothing like it. :)
It appears that more gears don't equal better mileage in the real world. I suppose the only benefit is better shift quality, at least in some of the transmissions.
 

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Ford says the 2.7L turbo V6 is the most popular F-150 engine. The combined EPA rating is 22 MPG for the 2017 that used a 6-speed. The combined EPA rating is also 22 MPG for the 2018 that uses a 10-speed.

Agreed - the ZF 8HP is a world-class transmission. It's too bad the 9HP is nothing like it. :)
Also agreed on the ZF 8HP....Had it in a Hemi 5.7 RAM and an EcoDiesel RAM 1500. Best tranny out of 40+ cars we've owned...by a long shot...

The Honda 6 AT in the G2 is solid - no complaints and super easy to live with (I like the ease of flushing out 3.3 qts as needed)...but for overall shift quality, nothing touches the ZF 8 speed...It's reason enough to buy a RAM 1500 vs the competition...
 

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That 2.7 with the 10 speed should be one of the best drivetrains since they build so many of them and the 2.7 is already on its second iteration. More data I guess Fuelly is necessary for evaluation as Motor Trend or Car and Driver is averaging in the 16's in their long termer F-150. TFL truck did a comparison between the RAM offroad model and the chevy 2.7 4 banger on a 100 mile loop. The 2.7 killed it (something like 17's vs 23 but there was also a published article that the 2.7 Chevy didn't do better than the 5.3 Chevy for highway MPG so once again more data points needed.

For comparison, this winter I've used the RL with lots of idling, highway, city, snow and cold temps, never warm temps and am always somewhere between 22-24. Also, that's with brand new snow tires which you can feel killing the rolling resistance. With summer gas and no snows it should get in the 27's for my loops. Summer gas and warmer temps make a big difference on my Accord for example which can be near 37 in the warmer months and around 30 in the cold weather for the 64 mile loop I take each day to drop off and pick up my daughter from school.
 

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Ford says the 2.7L turbo V6 is the most popular F-150 engine. The combined EPA rating is 22 MPG for the 2017 that used a 6-speed. The combined EPA rating is also 22 MPG for the 2018 that uses a 10-speed.
My experience has shown a 1.5-2mpg improvement across the board for my '18 2.7/10AT F150 vs my '15 2.7/6AT F150. It should also be noted that the 2.7EB also added port/direct split injection for '18 as well as the 10AT. Both trucks are supercrew 4x4 3.55 geared with similar options/weights. And I drive the same routes, pull the same trailer, etc.. so, I consider my experience to be representative to "real world". At least mine anyway!



That 2.7 with the 10 speed should be one of the best drivetrains since they build so many of them and the 2.7 is already on its second iteration.
It should be, and it is, based on my experience. It just does everything so well, and matches or out-performs engines twice it's size. I shopped all the trucks back in '15, and again in '18, before getting both my F150's. For overall balance, performance, and efficiency, it's still my top choice. And both trucks have been trouble-free. :smile:
 

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Speaking of the 10AT, 2018-2019 Odysseys with this transmission (Touring and Elite trims) may shift to park while driving.

TSB 19-043 was released on April 12 to address this issue. It doesn't appear to affect the Accord or RDX at this time.

BACKGROUND
A momentary voltage loss to the TCM, usually caused by a loose battery terminal, can cause the transmission to shift to
Park while driving. When this happens, the parking mechanism could get damaged, and the vehicle may move while the
shifter is in Park.

CORRECTIVE ACTION
• Replace the transmission (the new transmission comes with the new software).
• Inspect the battery terminals.
• Clean or replace the battery terminals and/or battery if the terminal inspection fails (an extremely small percentage
of vehicles may require a new battery or battery terminals).
 

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Replace the transmission?? That seems like a huge amount of work when a simple software update would suffice? I'd rather see Honda get all the kinks worked out of the 10AT before throwing it in a RL.
 

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Replace the transmission?? That seems like a huge amount of work when a simple software update would suffice? I'd rather see Honda get all the kinks worked out of the 10AT before throwing it in a RL.
There's some confusing/conflicting information in the TSB's - one (19-043) says to replace the transmission. Another (19-046) says to replace the transmission only if a test/snapshot indicates the parking mechanism is damaged then to update the software. Both TSB's were issued on the same day. It's "interesting" that even new, unsold vehicles will receive a remanufactured transmission.
 

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2008 Ridgeline RTS in Billet Silver Metallic
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Yikes! How does a transmission flaw like this not get flagged during design and testing protocols?
I suspect the same way the MCAS system in the Boeing 737-8/9 Max initially came to be... resulting in the loss of 2 aircraft and their occupants.

What seems painfully obvious now apparently was not so obvious to the engineers and testers at first.
 
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