[optimus29]

OK I am bout to order my new pioneer headunit this weekend..Now I want a decent set of front components like jbl,hertz, and an amp to push them.. I will be dynamatting doors... Want to spend around $350 for both front component and amp.. I'm not gonna bother with rear speakers as they just for fill in!!?.. How will I go about wiring up front, I'm gonna mount tweeters on sail panels...

 

[laserguy]

It's not as easy as just connecting, the amplifier speaker leads to a set of tweeters and midwoofers, You need the proper filtering and band passing each driver.


Bi amping, it's called it gives you th control to increase or reduce the output level for each set of drivers, then EQ.


You can do it in 2 different ways, having a component set that has bi ampable passive crossovers, very hard to find or expensive, or a separate digital sound processor box or maybe a head unit or amplifier with a built in crossover where you can high pass the tweeters signal above 2500 to 3000 and up at least.

The best and easier way is to mount the tweeters on the dash, with new wire coming from the amp or place the passive crossovers under the dash or close to the amplifier.

The idea is to send a woofer the low freq it can handle and the highest freq it can play without beaming, a good passive does that since it is designed for the driver, it will low pass the midwoofers and you only need to high pass it with the HU or amp xover at 80 Hz, this creates a range between 2000 and 80 HZ, then the tweeters will play for example between 2000 and all pass above that or say 22 khz.

There are very expensive sets of hertz speakers but none have passives for biamping except for 3 way components, you need a DSP box or HU with built in DSP, the issue is that the frequency selection is limited for head units with built in DSP and you can not get the components to sound as good or give them the proper range of frequencies for better lifespan of the speakers.
Same for jbl, you can run any set in biamp mode and simply use a 7 or 10 if non polarized cap, if the HU or amp can't cross above 25-3khz, but that will be a 1st order 6db slope that can limit the life of the tweeter, and also create a gap of up to 1000hz between the woofer and tweeters gaps are to protect drivers and not play them lower than they should play. Igaps can be compensated with EQ, I use slopes higher than 12db when I can.

This is a example of a set of components with biampable 4 ch crossovers. He He

http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119346

 

[OhSix]

OK I am bout to order my new pioneer headunit this weekend..Now I want a decent set of front components like jbl,hertz, and an amp to push them.. I will be dynamatting doors... Want to spend around $350 for both front component and amp.. I'm not gonna bother with rear speakers as they just for fill in!!?.. How will I go about wiring up front, I'm gonna mount tweeters on sail panels...

If you purchase a pre-packaged component speaker system, a passive crossover will be included in that package, which solves any concern about the "correct" frequency division/slope/ETC. Depending on the industrial design of that crossover network, you'll likely find space inside the door to mount it. And depending on how the crossover is assembled, it *may be* impervious to exposure to moisture (as in "heat shrink" sealed parts). *If* the crossover is a more typical design consisting of a circuit board inside a housing, it may not be resistant to environmental elements that invade the interior of a vehicle door. You'll need to factor either of those designs into where the crossover is placed. Further, if the crossover does end up in the door, you should consider placing it as close to the fulcrum as possible (meaning close to the hinges that hang the door - where movement of opening and closing the door limits the amount of travel and resulting "shock" when a closing door stops its travel).

Running additional wires of any gauge into RL doors is not a simple/easy job. It can certainly be done but requires time, effort and careful assembly/disassembly. There are lots of threads about that in this forum. It looks like the "easiest" way to route new cables into the door is by actually removing it - which isn't all that difficult, it just takes time - and even then, you'll be limited to the number and size of wires fished thru the umbilical hose and Honda's use of plastic keepers & guides.

You might hear forum members in every audio forum prattle on about the limitations of small gauge wire and the virtues of using fat speaker cable but the debate about the audible benefits of such things rages on across the entire audio world - mobile, home and professional. Without getting esoteric on the topic, it's my opinion the return on investment of both time and $ to run additional and/or larger wires thru the RL door is minimal - unless one is going all out. I support that opinion by the very long history in the audio world of double blind tests concluding the average listener cannot resolve the sonic difference between 16 gauge lamp cord and *10 gauge, OFC, complexly woven, low loss hyper wire*.

It is also my opinion the virtues of bi/tri amping are very real but most of what that expensive design does gets lost when the noise floor of a moving vehicle is raised to freeway speeds - no matter how much power and sophistication a system might have. The noise of a moving vehicle pollutes the nuance of even the best systems out there. And after all, we drive way more than we sit listening to our favorite tunes. If the goal is to bring a smile to the faces of listeners when sitting still, you can achieve that with or without hi dollar labor intensive installations and STILL have great music when underway on a road trip or heading to work. If the goal is to compete, well, you've got your work cut out for you.

If you are intimidated by the challenge of running new wires to the door, the best solution is to use the factory wires and install crossovers in the lowest "shock" area of the door with minimal environmental exposure. That way, you can simply run wires from the front amp to the factory connection point at the radio - connect the crossovers to the wires in the door & hi/low pass connections to the tweets/woofs can stay inside the door. Easy peasy.

Otherwise, routing new cables into the door opens up all kinds of possibilities.

Have you thought about how to mount your new door woofs? Many pre-packaged systems will "bolt on" via the use of speaker adaptors and they don't require cutting door metal. Other systems have physical dimensions that require cutting and may not be mountable with off-the-shelf adaptors.

 

[laserguy]

I suggest dash tweeters placement, on axis in my case it gave me a deep raised good stage. I get enough mid range that a mid 3" will not be needed when the 2 way is tuned properly.

This also will eliminate bi wiring in the doors for bi amping and placing crossovers in the door with the tweeters placed on the door sail panels.

New dash wire can be just dropped between the dash and windshield gap and fished out easy at the bottom, the wire hides behind the A pillar plastic panel on the windshield side.
Mounting cups mounted on the corners bottom of the pillar pointing at the center of the seats at head height or higher to the sealing, the options to run the wire once fished at the bottom are many to go to the amp or passives.


And running new wire to the doors is not that hard, it just takes time, I added new wire with a jacket, I just simply removed a portion of the extra soft jacket and ran the 2 conductor wires through the factory white connector after drilling a hole on the plastic, and then put the jacket back on, once the wire was in the door. Wire without an extra soft jacket will be easier even being gauge 12, I only did gauge 12 because I got a good deal on the wire and I was running 240 watts per midwoofer door, I was over the limit to get the most from that power with over 20 feet of wire per driver, with gauge 14 should be easier and faster to install (smaller hole drilled on the white connector).



I thought the fuse box needed to be removed but that is not the case, you just have to fish it out from whatever end is easier, then fished in the factory rubber black grommet, a little finger cutting, bleeding and scratching that's it. The right tools gets the job done.

The right passenger side could almost be done with a blind fold, well not quite but way easier to fish out, no connector hole drilled or any connectors or ring holders just wiring running through the rubber grommet, and no major obstacles like the fuse box on the other side.


Bi amping will not provide higher volume or output, just a bit of extra clarity, and with good power for the midwoofer, better dynamics. Just like 100W per channel versus 200W/ch, it does not get that much louder, it just gives better dynamics, clarity and headroom.

Most passives with components are 2 channels, 2 channels in, 4 channels out, a little power gets lost in the mix. Some notice it, some don't compared to bi amping.

If the head unit offers output levels in the crossover sections, the levels can be reduced to match woofer and tweeter levels if the tweeters are bright or louder, and most passives have at least a 4 db plus in 2db increments done with jumpers, some crossovers have -4db to 4db + for the tweeters. And HU power of 18W was enough to drive the tweeters, plenty, and I bridged a 4 ch amp just for the midwoofers.

Biamped passives, 2 channels in for the woofers, 2 channels in for tweeters 4 separate amplified channels out.


A lot of People keep their amps behind the seat, passives in the doors, I tend to prefer to have them accessible for tuning, setting gains or swapping things, either under the front or rear seats. Tuning is a bad habit but needed when one minor slope, tweeter placement power amplifier or HU is changed, everything needs to be tuned all over again.

 

[optimus29]

Yeah I have done the tweeter replacement when I bought truck. Here's what I'm looking at..

Focal 165A1
6 1/2
2 way
RMS is at 60 watts each
4 ohms
92.DB
2 5/8 Depth
Focal2 Solid black 2 channel amp
I found this package for $380.00 on Woofers Etc, What are your thoughts on that?? I really like sound on A Pillars!!

 

[laserguy]

Yeah I have done the tweeter replacement when I bought truck. Here's what I'm looking at..

Focal 165A1
6 1/2
2 way
RMS is at 60 watts each
4 ohms
92.DB
2 5/8 Depth
Focal2 Solid black 2 channel amp
I found this package for $380.00 on Woofers Etc, What are your thoughts on that?? I really like sound on A Pillars!!

If you want focal with bi ampable separate xovers

I would get the focal pS 165, same price better seller or warranty, the A's are an older model and maybe not a better model, woofers etc sells good previous models from brands you can only get from authorized dealers and not on line, they have a warranty and take returns, but I'm not sure if the warranty is as long as the one from crutchfield.

These focals will make things easier with separate crossovers, you can bi amp them connect them in parallel and then use only 2 ch if connected in parallel.

Our factory wiring is already in parallel and you can just connect the tweeter xovers to the dash factory wiring, and add the woofer xover to the door woofer, and still keep 2 ch for rear speakers, the same as the hertz DSK I had, the newer DSK no longer offers separate xover and bi amp option unfortunately, I was looking at some older focals like these PS series , having a passive bi amping option like I did with the Hertz. I ended up with morels but instead of separate xovers, these had them separate but in one big unit instead of 2 pieces like these focals.

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_091PS165V/Focal-Performance-PS-165V.html

And on sale too

 

[OhSix]

*Most* speaker systems are an assembly of driver components sourced from manufacturers like SEAS, AUDAX, a myriad of Japanese OEMs now building drivers in China and (at one time in the past) Dynaudio. Focal is one of those rare OEMs that manufactures their own drivers giving them an engineering advantage over other products competing for your dollars. In the home market, Focal has products ranking right up there with Wilson, KEF and Bowers/Wilson, which is to say they are among the best to be had, regardless of $. They innovate standard raw driver designs with material like Flax fiber composites sandwiched over fiberglass. Companies like Focal have the technical chops to design and experiment with all kinds of new and effective methods that others copy and play catch up with.

Like many name brands out there, Focal may not be the OEM of all the components in their product line up, but they are certainly the designer and QA authority of everything they sell. Based on that, IMO you simply can't go wrong with anything having the Focal name attached to it.

"Technically speaking", true bi/tri amplification involves electronic crossovers that separate frequencies prior to the signal is fed to an amp - which eliminates the need for passive crossovers altogether. The implementation of a true bi/tri amplification design gives the listener systematic control over frequency and slopes which provides a great fine tuning option - but tuning *technically* requires additional equipment to perform correct adjustments, and that gets very esoteric depending on how far one wants to go. Which isn't to say there is no advantage to using separate amps to feed a passive crossover, there is definitive benefit to that technique - but it does add complexity to the installation and still doesn't give the user tuning options except for level adjustments- and its up to the listener to decide if the extra effort & $ are worth it. It comes down to time, expertise, space, the limits of your wallet and the perceived value you might get from your efforts and financial investment. Given the speaker space limitations of the RL without full custom fabrication, IMO: multiple amps to drive a passively crossed 2 or 3 way system is overkill. But thats just one persons opinion.

The inverted dome design of the tweets you linked to is a very cool adaptation of standard convex domes. They'll do a great job dispersing high freq's from the sails. I agree that pilars are a preferred location but only when drivers can be oriented as close to on-axis as possible. With air bags in the pilars, your choices are limited to the places you already know. Having been involved in both dash mounted speakers reflecting off the dash and sail mounted speakers, I'm personally ambivalent. Both have attractive sonic characteristics, but preference can't be known until both are experienced. Now that you know what dash tweets sound like in the RL, going to the sail panel is going to reveal your own preference.

You are on the right path. Keep us posted on your progress.

 

[laserguy]

I heard focal is, or uses the same manufacturer as hertz, in France or Italy or they use the same engineers.


And yes, we can't depend on just passives without any other filtering using a good amplified power.

It took me a while to understand passives, passives need a HP filter. The midwoofers passives in most if not all components available are a low pass filter and when you set the high pass filter on the HU, you make or complete the system with a semi active passive system.

Since most after market head units just offer a HP for the main channels, the components woofer passives section fills the gap with the HU high pass filter. Just speaking midbass.

The tweeters passives are different limiting or blocking low frequencies and sending them higher, in most cases all pass from the lowest point the tweeter can handle lower frequencies.


Now when you have an HU that offers high pass and low pass for the first 4 channels, that is active filtering and pre amplified, and no need for passives since that is the best filtering, it reduces heat in the passives and it's cleaner power, the issue is not having many choices in frequencies to find the point where those components will sound their best, making it complicated or hard to tune and select the proper slope also.

That is the reason DSP's are offered, a DSP with just steps of 2.5khz increments selections and 32 EQ bands per channel, can range from $500 to $800 for those little boxes, and some don't even have control settings to adjust, needing a laptop to save changes or save different settings for different sound, like sq driver stage, passenger only stage, driver stage and more bass or both front seats stage etc.

Alpine HU's offer an app, where different settings can be saved and cahnged with one or 2 clicks, the downside is having to have the phone connected while listening , only a few higher end ones offer band pass with limited slopes and frequencies but at least the TA and EQ is effective and the settings can be saved and changed without having to spend 5-10 mins changing back each EQ band, frequency, slope or TA for each intended purpose once a setting is saved in the app.

The pioneer P99 $1400 HU offers 8 channels ( what most decent DSP's offer) and a few EQ saved settings, that's it, no xover Points or time alignment (TA) options to save, limiting to a single one seat stage option and maybe extra bass to turn the sub volume higher.

Most DSP's, you get a little remote, where you change the saved tuned settings with one click, but after you used the laptop to save those changes.

Rockford fosgate was working on a DSP that could be controlled with a phone or tablet a few years ago, but the engineer or head designer quit and left them hanging and never finished it, I was told.

 

[OhSix]

And yes, we can't depend on just passives without any other filtering using a good amplified power.
It took me a while to understand passives, passives need a HP filter. .

Other than pointing out the function of HU electronic filtering and external processors supporting all kinds of DSP, I'm not quite sure what the point of all that text is, but... in reference to bolded content above, there is a lot of confusion, or perhaps those words were misconstructed, hence confusing.

Crossovers, whether passive of active ARE filters. Other than dynamic adjustments, there is only one difference between active and passive frequency division - and that is amplification before or after filtering takes place. Passive crossovers don't "need" a HP filter, passives ARE filters operating at fixed upper, lower or band pass frequencies and attenuation slopes.

Obviously, there are certain benefits with a nicely implemented actively crossed system, but I'm unsure how all that relates to the OP. The question at hand was how optimus would go about wiring his selection of a 2 way component speaker system - with tweeters mounted in the sail panel. The shortest answer to his question is:
1) use the existing wires in the door and place the crossover supplied with his system in the doors where they are protected from environmental elements and shock - OR -
2) place the crossovers inside the vehicle and run an extra pair of wires into the door.

Further, the placement of dash vs. sail and active vs. passive frequency division is a matter of imagination, skill and time to execute an installation. Most of THAT is a matter of personal preference and individual passion - which is only limited by ones pocket book.

 

[laserguy]

I thought I covered all that, I guess I should have not said anything else other than, do not place tweeters on the door sail panel. No rears to me sounded like the OP wanted to bi amp, if the OP is set on the sail panels then I wasted some time posting, but based on the OP's last post he wants to mount them on the dash A pillar.

Sail panel tweeter placement and bi wire bi amping will be difficult and time consuming.
An extra line of speaker wires will be needed regardless, the factory wires can be used for the tweeters or the woofers, for convenience or preference.

The OP mentioned no rears, maybe 2 channels will be wasted or disconnected? why waste 2 channels? bi amp the components or use them for rear fill controlled reduced ambiance, even with the factory speakers.

The passive crossover from the Morels or the Focals PS I mentioned offers 2 options as compared with 99% of the rest of components on the market that their passives only use 2 channels to drive both tweeters and midwoofers.

With those PS Focals the Op has these options.

1. 2 channels for the woofers and 2 channels for the tweeters, amplified.
Or

2. Use 2 amplified channels for just the components, maybe bridge a 4 ch amp to power them, or use the other amp channels for the rears, or use the HU power for the rears, he can also just use the HU power for the tweeters and it's crossovers, bridge a 4 ch amp, just for the mid woofers.

Many options and the information on how to install and connect them has been posted already.

Some extra information about tweeter placement.

By having them on Axis on the pillar dash area some windshield reflection is prevented, and the harsh effect will not be as bad as having them on the sail panel, since mine offer laid back sound they worked well there. A bright tweeter may need to be EQ down, installed off axis or moved to a different location in some cases. Increasing the slope will smooth out and reduce the bright and harsh sound, but then again, they need to have their pair of independent channels , in order to make the slope more effective assuming the HU offers those options or a Sound processor is used.



I guess I am done posting on this thread. I hope someone benefited from some of the information and time spent.

OP Feel free to PM me if extra help is needed.

Other than pointing out the function of HU electronic filtering and external processors supporting all kinds of DSP, I'm not quite sure what the point of all that text is, but... in reference to bolded content above, there is a lot of confusion, or perhaps those words were misconstructed, hence confusing.

Crossovers, whether passive of active ARE filters. Other than dynamic adjustments, there is only one difference between active and passive frequency division - and that is amplification before or after filtering takes place. Passive crossovers don't "need" a HP filter, passives ARE filters operating at fixed upper, lower or band pass frequencies and attenuation slopes.

If you are taking about home speaker crossovers maybe, but most car passive crossovers for the woofers are just a Low Pass, therefore sir, they do need a High pass from either the HU or the amplifier. No misconstructed or confusing words here.

If you dont use a HP, either from the amp or HU, the 6.5 cone will try to play below 80-70 hz down to 20Hz and that is potential death or more excursion and distortion. That is why components play more bass when no HP is used, way more bass than we want to hear and at loud levels the bass gets impossible to EQ or reduce for ideal sound. Been there done that already.

With the HU HP at 80 hz, for example, the safe frequenccy range for the 6.5 woofer will be 80 to 2800Hz for example, and from 2800hz and up is up to the tweeter to play those frequencies. Either with a passive or no passive a woofer needs a High pass and it is safer for it to try to play above 2000 Hz, it will cause beaming or overlapping but safer than when you let a small tweeter play below 1000 hz and kill it.