[OhSix]

Santa brought the BAFX OBDII Bluetooth scan tool and stuffed my stocking. Cool! Downloaded the Torque app and within minutes was playing with dashboard settings and logging data.

In advance of another temp probe project, I was especially interested in measuring various temperatures but I bumped into weirdness - more on that below.

The charts below were generated by logging data & importing the file into MS Excel.

Several forum members have commented on the rise time of engine coolant temp and I was curious too. As a base line, ambient temperature was approximately 50 F when this data was collected.





Other than the quick engine coolant rise to operating temp range, two things stick out with this data. First, was coolant temp reaching slightly above 200F during a San Diego style winter. Having never seen numeric values for this measurement, perhaps this is normal. The other is the influence of "heat soak" on air intake temps.

While coolant temp rose approximately 3.5 X start up temp, air intake rose approximately 2.5 X. It will be interesting to see the influence of underhood heat build up during hot days like we had earlier this year (when it was over 110F outside)

Now, about the weirdness... as most who are familiar with Honda's eff'd up choices about sensor data available @ the OBD port, trans temp, ambient air, oil temp and other values aren't accessible to one of these OBD Bluetooth gadgets - even though there are factory probes sensing those things. But that didn't prevent me from attempting to log data from those sensors.

Saturday evening, I configured the app to look specifically for coolant, oil, trans and ambient air temps, started up the 06 and went for a drive. Sure enough, I had a nice colorful display with every temp I wanted to see in the "graph" display of the app. Oddly, even though I was witnessing all those temps being displayed, the data logged from that run did not include oil, ambient air or trans temps. And I haven't been able to get them back since. Pi$$e$ me off - cuz I was looking forward to integrating OBD data with an upcoming project.

Anyone aware of "tricks" to get the ECU to report temp values?

 

[zroger73]

Like many late-model vehicles with all-aluminum engines, Hondas do tend to heat up quickly which is ideal for efficiency, emissions, comfort, and durability. The only real downside is they are less tolerant of overheating compared to older engines with a cast iron block and heads.

ODB II regulations require only certain parameters and codes to be accessible with "consumer level" devices. Manufacturer-specific information is hit-or-miss (usually miss) since it sometimes has to be reverse-engineered in order to be access with aftermarket scan tools. Honda nor any other manufacturer is required to provide all sensor readings in a non-proprietary format. Of a given scan tool's parameter list, only a subset will be available on a given vehicle. The only way to see all sensor data and codes is to use the manufacturer's scan tool and software. For Honda, this is the HDS. For Ford, it's the NGS. For GM, it's the Tech II and so forth. Each of these cost thousands of dollars and the software is hundreds to thousands more.

 

[OhSix]

Like many late-model vehicles with all-aluminum engines, Hondas do tend to heat up quickly which is ideal for efficiency, emissions, comfort, and durability. The only real downside is they are less tolerant of overheating compared to older engines with a cast iron block and heads.

ODB II regulations require only certain parameters and codes to be accessible with "consumer level" devices. Manufacturer-specific information is hit-or-miss (usually miss) since it sometimes has to be reverse-engineered in order to be access with aftermarket scan tools. Honda nor any other manufacturer is required to provide all sensor readings in a non-proprietary format. Of a given scan tool's parameter list, only a subset will be available on a given vehicle. The only way to see all sensor data and codes is to use the manufacturer's scan tool and software. For Honda, this is the HDS. For Ford, it's the NGS. For GM, it's the Tech II and so forth. Each of these cost thousands of dollars and the software is hundreds to thousands more.

Yah, I get that about aluminum engines. Parametric data puts things in a different perspective - being a data freak, it's interesting to observe results like this:



Coolant temp went up 65F, air intake went up 4F after 1 min 38 sec of idling in the driveway while the ECU reduced idle 366 RPM. That stuff is personally interesting.

While its not incumbent on OEMs to make data sensed by every probe available to user level devices, what puzzles me is why I saw engine oil, ambient air and trans fluid temps but those results were not logged - and they haven't reappeared. Software being what it is, access to measured values should be binary - either there or not. What I observed suggests there my be some sort of cycle, toggling reporting on/off.

This was what I was asking, if anyone is aware of what that cycle might be or if there is some sort of event to induce reporting of those values.

 

[speedlever]

OhSix, you are also running the 9141-2 protocol (as am I). 2009 and up should be on the Canbus protocol which I believe supports more data points. I'd love to find that data that you temporarily had available. I'll be curious if you find your way back to it.

Regardless, I'm curious what voltage numbers you see being reported. Mine appear to be 1v low.. ie 13.4v where I would expect to see 14.4v, etc.

** I bought another supermini OBD2 BT port adapter for my old Civic. Now that I've connected to it, I cannot connect to my Pilot or RL. I deleted all the BT connectoids (I was hoping I could simply rename them so I could choose the correct adapter for the vehicle), but that didn't seem to work. IAC, I have been unable to restore communications with my RL and Pilot since I connected the Civic.

Any suggestions?

 

[zroger73]

Coolant temp went up 65F, air intake went up 4F after 1 min 38 sec of idling in the driveway while the ECU reduced idle 366 RPM. That stuff is personally interesting.

Keep in mind IAT is the temperature of the air stream entering the engine, so it is more affected by ambient temperature than engine temperature. When the IAT rises during a hot soak, it should begin to fall once the engine is restarted begins to ingest cooler ambient air again.

 

[OhSix]

OhSix, you are also running the 9141-2 protocol (as am I). 2009 and up should be on the Canbus protocol which I believe supports more data points. I'd love to find that data that you temporarily had available. I'll be curious if you find your way back to it.

Regardless, I'm curious what voltage numbers you see being reported. Mine appear to be 1v low.. ie 13.4v where I would expect to see 14.4v, etc.

** I bought another supermini OBD2 BT port adapter for my old Civic. Now that I've connected to it, I cannot connect to my Pilot or RL. I deleted all the BT connectoids (I was hoping I could simply rename them so I could choose the correct adapter for the vehicle), but that didn't seem to work. IAC, I have been unable to restore communications with my RL and Pilot since I connected the Civic.

Any suggestions?

Funny stuff with OBD readers. There is a mild conspiracy to keep certain information out of the hands of consumers - maybe to "protect" hardware developers like Snap-On who build and sell large handheld portable data desks with access to values us little guys might not understand. These Bluetooth OBD readers hafta be putting a serious dent in the market space where companies like Actron play. Who needs $100 dedicated code readers when you can get a plug and play piece of hardware linked to a cool GUI in an android app? $25 and you get a WHOLE bunch more features.

EDIT: imagine what would if all data was available to end users with a little adaptor and an app? All of a sudden, big buck "Pro Tool" devices by Snap-On, Matco and Cornwall would dry up right quick.

Regardless of OBD software revision or compliance, the RL certainly has all the sensors I'm interested in. Even the damned differentials have sensors. Why those values monitored by the ECU are hidden from consumer devices is part of the conspiracy, huh?

Anyhoo... on your vehicle/reader conundrum, that's a head scratcher. The hardware doesn't care what device it's broadcasting to. In that regard, its a transmitter only (as opposed to a transceiver). It simply reads available data and sends it over the serial BT profile. Once the PW is accepted by the receiver, it streams data into the local ether (or at least that's the way it *should* work). On the receive side, your App should support "infinite" vehicle profiles. So it doesn't care what vehicle its talking to either. Are you using Torque? Confusing why you would be having this particular issue - unless - the hardware has some sort of singular memory register and doesn't allow for moving from one vehicle to another?

As far as voltage, I haven't tracked that value via the Torque app. I do however have a little USB power adaptor with a gauge used at all times. I calibrated that little thing against a laboratory power supply so know it's as accurate as the voltage delivered to the port its plugged into. It regularly measures 14.1 VDC at all 3 "not the lighter" ports. I'll enable that sensor in the app to see the delta between it and the ECU values.

Update to follow.

 

[Carsmak]

Six, Depending on which BT Adaptor's your using they are transcievers (per your description) with having the ability to clear codes within the OBD II system. With that info does that change something?

Speed, Having cleared everything, have you attempted to remove and reinstall the Torque app? Just a thought, maybe there is an update, also I'm guessing the BT reader in the Civic is a different version than the items in the Pilot or RL? If possible you may want to attempt to get the same one you previously used and just flea bay or Trading Post the Civic Reader. Good Luck

 

[OhSix]

Six, Depending on which BT Adaptor's your using they are transcievers (per your description) with having the ability to clear codes within the OBD II system. With that info does that change something?

Speed, Having cleared everything, have you attempted to remove and reinstall the Torque app? Just a thought, maybe there is an update, also I'm guessing the BT reader in the Civic is a different version than the items in the Pilot or RL? If possible you may want to attempt to get the same one you previously used and just flea bay or Trading Post the Civic Reader. Good Luck

True that Carsmak. The BT serial protocol supports bi-directional data exchange. In regards to speeds issue, battery management on the portable device favors "listening" - unless the user invokes a command sending to the OBD device. So unless there is specific need for the BT engine on the phone to send something (like let the OBD adaptor "know" its listening), it mostly listens during up time - until the user tells it to do otherwise (clear a code for example). Interesting thing about compliance with standards - there is always wiggle room - developers are free to interpret, so there may be some sort of collision happening, preventing the app from dialoging with the port reader when moved from one vehicle to another.

The sun is finally hitting the driveway. Might be time to pop the hood and get crackin' on long overdue projects.

 

[speedlever]

Yes, I'm using Torque Pro on my old Galaxy S4 running KK 5.0.1.

AFAIK, I have identical OBD2 supermini Elm 327 adapters (3, to be precise). Prior to installing in the Civic, I was able to use Torque Pro in either the Pilot or the RL. But each time I switched, I had to disconnect from one BT adapter and pair up the other one. I hoped to just give the BT adapter a name designating it's application and be able to keep all adapters intact so I didn't have to unpair one to pair another. But it doesn't seem to work that way.

Since pairing with the OBD2 adapter in the Civic, I've been unable to connect with either the Pilot or the RL. I'm stumped at the moment. But haven't really had time to pursue this as I'd like.

 

[OhSix]

Yes, I'm using Torque Pro on my old Galaxy S4 running KK 5.0.1.

AFAIK, I have identical OBD2 supermini Elm 327 adapters (3, to be precise). Prior to installing in the Civic, I was able to use Torque Pro in either the Pilot or the RL. But each time I switched, I had to disconnect from one BT adapter and pair up the other one. I hoped to just give the BT adapter a name designating it's application and be able to keep all adapters intact so I didn't have to unpair one to pair another. But it doesn't seem to work that way.

Since pairing with the OBD2 adapter in the Civic, I've been unable to connect with either the Pilot or the RL. I'm stumped at the moment. But haven't really had time to pursue this as I'd like.

Wish I could provide some insight. If I understand correctly, you were able to move from vehicles 1 & 2 using Torque app paired to BT adaptors residing in those vehicles. Once a 3rd adaptor was added and paired to the app, everything went wonky. Is that correct? Wondering if there is some sort of profile limitation in the android OS your carrier supports? If so, they aren't likely to know about it - or care for that matter. The poor schlubs working in carrier owned retail outlets certainly can't do much.

Carriers have a stranglehold on mobile OEMs when it comes to native OS they allow for subscribers. Rotten bastards like to "approve" all kinds of bloat and limit fixes to known bugs - mostly to force subscribers into upgrades and contracts. I could spew endlessly about dealing with device certification across the "big 3" carriers. Unbelievable what they force OEMs to do. But hey, they issue the P.O.'s so....

Anyhoo... I'm seeing all kinds of weirdness in this BAfX/Torque combo. Here's a partial screen shot of what I manually configured to log on the last run down to hill.



Notice OBD & CM PIDs are enabled but no data is displayed in the traces.

Here's the file from that run. Even though the screen above shows voltage PIDs are enabled, the file headers are omitted in the configuration completely - BUT - the other PIDS not streaming (oil/trans/ambient air temps) to the app ARE given a header in the file.



So now I've seen (supposedly) unsupported PIDs graphed but not logged, supported PIDs enabled but not graphed OR logged, and unsupported PIDs given a header but no data in the file. Effing weird. And frustrating.

Looked around a bit. TOAD is a windows based read/write tool that supposedly reveals "professional" level PIDs - but that SW costs $400.

Also saw Ultragauge & Scangauge products. This is spiking my OCD for sure.

 

[speedlever]

I had an UltraGauge for a while and sold it. There are threads here about the UG as well as the SG. But I haven't seen anything recent on either.

I hear ya about the cell phone boondoggle. I'm leaning pretty strongly towards a Nexus next time I upgrade the phone. I'm tired of all the carrier bloat. Other than the walled garden, I wish Android had followed Apple's lead and forced the carriers to keep Android pure.

I have to hand it to Apple for keeping control of their product and software. But the Apple way holds no interest for me... so I guess it's both a blessing and a curse. (I do enjoy my iPad mini2... just wish it could multi-task).

 

[hokiefyd]

Saturday evening, I configured the app to look specifically for coolant, oil, trans and ambient air temps, started up the 06 and went for a drive. Sure enough, I had a nice colorful display with every temp I wanted to see in the "graph" display of the app. Oddly, even though I was witnessing all those temps being displayed, the data logged from that run did not include oil, ambient air or trans temps. And I haven't been able to get them back since.

Can you confirm that you were seeing oil temperatures on Torque? I've never been able to get Torque to sense oil temperatures in any of my Hondas. Trans temp is, I think, just a mirror of coolant temperature. I guess this assumes that it will run close to the coolant temperature, with the in-radiator heat exchanger.

Remember that these are emissions-related systems, and only basic emissions-related PIDs are required to be reported as standard protocol. Honda surely is measuring oil temperature and actual ATF temperature inside the transmission, but it's not a standard OBD PID, so it's not there. One thing I think legitimately does fall within the realm of emissions (because it can influence tailpipe emissions tremendously) is knock values. These engines have knock sensors, and the computer is obviously monitoring that, but it's not a standard OBD PID, so it's not reported to a scanner like what we have. The HDS can certainly see it...but we can't.

Oh well...

Another interesting one is catalyst temperature. It can act like a poor man's Exhaust Gas Temperature gauge. I'm not sure if it's an inferred value or a directly-measured one. Based on some Google hits, it seems like it may be a directly measured value, from inside the catalytic converter. But I'm not positive.

 

[OhSix]

Can you confirm that you were seeing oil temperatures on Torque? I've never been able to get Torque to sense oil temperatures in any of my Hondas. Trans temp is, I think, just a mirror of coolant temperature. I guess this assumes that it will run close to the coolant temperature, with the in-radiator heat exchanger.

Remember that these are emissions-related systems, and only basic emissions-related PIDs are required to be reported as standard protocol. Honda surely is measuring oil temperature and actual ATF temperature inside the transmission, but it's not a standard OBD PID, so it's not there. One thing I think legitimately does fall within the realm of emissions (because it can influence tailpipe emissions tremendously) is knock values. These engines have knock sensors, and the computer is obviously monitoring that, but it's not a standard OBD PID, so it's not reported to a scanner like what we have. The HDS can certainly see it...but we can't.

Oh well...

Another interesting one is catalyst temperature. It can act like a poor man's Exhaust Gas Temperature gauge. I'm not sure if it's an inferred value or a directly-measured one. Based on some Google hits, it seems like it may be a directly measured value, from inside the catalytic converter. But I'm not positive.

Unfortunately I can't confirm much with the Torque app. When first configured, I went through the rather lengthy list of pre-loaded PIDs,enabling the temperature related items of interest. Using the graph display, there was a very nice set of traces riding on top of the PID names/color legend.

At the time I was surprised & happy to see everything requested was graphing. Oil, trans, coolant, intake air and ambient temps were there. When the drive was done, log files included only coolant and intake air temps. Every subsequent attempt to graph/log those sensors resulted in bupkis.

How could default PIDs be reporting data from proprietary codes? I have no idea.

 

[hokiefyd]

At the time I was surprised & happy to see everything requested was graphing. Oil, trans, coolant, intake air and ambient temps were there. When the drive was done, log files included only coolant and intake air temps. Every subsequent attempt to graph/log those sensors resulted in bupkis.

How could default PIDs be reporting data from proprietary codes? I have no idea.

Torque's graphing properties are different, and you have to tell it which PIDs you want to graph. You can graph anything it can read.

The transmission temperature, coolant temperature, intake temperature, and ambient temperature are all standard PIDs I believe. I'm surprised that Torque was able to see the oil temperature one, since it's not standard. Torque can read custom PIDs if you program it with the correct codes. I don't think any of the Honda custom codes are published.

http://torquebhp.wikia.com/wiki/How_to_add_extended_PIDs

This forum:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23530

Seems to list the Oil Temperature PID as 2101, making the correct line for that PID, following the Torque syntax, as follows:

Name,ShortName,ModeAndPID,Equation,Min Value,Max Value,Units,Header

Engine Oil Temperature,EOT,2101,AC-40,-49,215,C,7E0

I have not tried it on mine. I may have time to try it today. I don't know if that only works on certain brands, or if that's a universal PID.

 

[Dnick]

I know less than nothing about this tool. BUT, from what you are saying, I'd want to rule out the possibility that your initial viewing of those since-disappeared temp measurements on your graph were maybe actually part of a "tutorial" kind of display that's there just to show you an example of what you have turned on & how it will look when reporting (and then it never appeared because the tool couldn't "translate" the data provided by the RL).

I only say this because I have witnessed similar kinds of things with other (non-automotive) displays in the past.

'Just a thought......

 

[hokiefyd]

I can confirm that the oil temperature PID posted on that FT86 forum does NOT work on the Ridgeline. I will keep looking for additional ones we may be able to add to the standard cadre of data feeds.

 

[speedlever]

I can confirm that the oil temperature PID posted on that FT86 forum does NOT work on the Ridgeline. I will keep looking for additional ones we may be able to add to the standard cadre of data feeds.

hokie, can you confirm the protocol your 2009 RL uses? My 2008 uses the older 9141-2 (and it still bugs me that Honda found a way around the federal requirement that all 2008 and newer models run the Canbus protocol).

**********************
"CAN is the newest protocol added to the OBD-II specification, and it is mandated for all 2008 and newer model years"
http://www.obdii.com/background.html

 

[speedlever]

Note to henni (and others who may be interested): I moved the OT discussion about Android and ODIN to a new thread:
http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124514

 

[hokiefyd]

hokie, can you confirm the protocol your 2009 RL uses? My 2008 uses the older 9141-2 (and it still bugs me that Honda found a way around the federal requirement that all 2008 and newer models run the Canbus protocol).

**********************
"CAN is the newest protocol added to the OBD-II specification, and it is mandated for all 2008 and newer model years"
http://www.obdii.com/background.html

I think it runs CANBUS. I used to have a 2008 CR-V, and I think it was CANBUS as well. Both my '09 RL and our former '08 CR-V reports/reported data MUCH faster than our 2005 Acura MDX reports it, which is about once per second. The RL's data feed to the Torque app is near real-time.

What is the data refresh rate like on your 2008? Is it about once per second, or is it closer to real-time? I presume our MDX uses the older protocol, perhaps similar to your '08 RL. Can you read EGR data on your '08 RL? I can see both commanded EGR and EGR error in our '09 RL, but not in our '05 MDX. The MDX just displays "no data" for those PIDs.

I will check my RL's OBD connector at lunch today.

 

[speedlever]

Right now I am still unconnected to either my Pilot or RL OBD2 data. I have not found a way to restore communications after setting it up on the old Civic. I do not want to reinstall Torque because I have a nice custom gauge layout I would like to keep. (It may be time to investigate how to save and keep that layout).

Even after deleting all BT connectoids, I cannot restore communication with the Pilot and RL. However, the Civic connects within seconds, even with all the BT connectoids deleted. Go figure.

Here's a SS I took a couple of years ago which I believe shows the available sensors on my RL. (unfortunately I didn't name the pic and it's been too long since I took it to remember accurately).