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How can Honda get it so wrong?

28K views 215 replies 55 participants last post by  dennycrane 
#1 · (Edited)
My 2022 RL is in shop due to brake noise. Tech is unsure what is wrong. So, i have a loaner…2022 Honda HRV. MRSP is $25k.

The car is OK. Noisy. Suspension too firm for my taste. Bad seating. Tons of road noise! I would not buy it for sure.

But damn, the HRV’s throttle is perfect. The powertrain moves to my right foot perfectly. No lag. No rubber necking because your body expect something and your car does not respond. No hesitation. Smooth. Mid corner throttle or braking? No problem.

And this is on ECO mode in the HRV!!! Oh, no crappy auto-start/stop to ruin the experience. No need for Sport/Sequential mode either because throttle response is perfect. Surprisingly, the HRV’s CVT is well-behaved. (Note, i have not off-roaded the HRV or tow etc. to comment on CVT in those situations.)

Why is it that Honda got the throttle so right on HRV and yet so wrong on the fancy Ridgeline?? RL’s engine is great i am sure. But the throttle tuning and ZF 9-speed are just a disaster IMHO. ECO mode on RL is useless...might as well put a pillow behind the gas pedal. The fancy ZF shifting is pure crap. Sport/Sequential mode is too aggressive for daily driving. Non-S mode makes the engine into a non-boosted 3-cylinder slow poke. It is sad when I have to use S-mode just to merge onto highway ramp! A simple task as accelerating from stop is painfully slow because ZF starts in 2nd gear! And then you add in the useless auto-start/stop crap that damages engines apparently!

I love the RL. One of the best cars i have ever owned. Extremely practical. But the powertrain tuning and/or transmission leave A LOT to be desired.

Sorry for rant.
 
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#2 ·
It may not work for you, but it may work for someone else.
My G1 feels sluggish on regular fuel, but is worlds apart on premium grade fuel.
On the same regular fuel, my parents' '09 Fit accelerates like crazy - to a point I hate it. However, my parents dont mind it as they are accustomed to it. The fit has many NVH that my G1 does not.
My G5 Odyssey is even more quiet and accelerates perfect - also has the 10spd. There are a whole bunch of owners who hate the 10spd. I have close to 90K on my '19 Odyssey, changed the ATF twice, and Its been problem free.
 
#96 ·
I'm honestly very surprised to read this.

Having driven probably more than a million miles in my lifetime, and that may be an underestimation, I've never experienced any difference in a vehicle's performance using premium fuel, when regular is the normal and suggested fuel. Conversely, I've owned luxury brands that are optimized for a higher octane fuel, but run and perform equally well on regular.

Of course, my experience is mine, and mine alone, and certainly not scientific, but I think my experience is indicative of the real world.

This isn't to question what you feel, but I've never experienced the same situation.

It may not work for you, but it may work for someone else.
My G1 feels sluggish on regular fuel, but is worlds apart on premium grade fuel.
On the same regular fuel, my parents' '09 Fit accelerates like crazy - to a point I hate it. However, my parents dont mind it as they are accustomed to it. The fit has many NVH that my G1 does not.
My G5 Odyssey is even more quiet and accelerates perfect - also has the 10spd. There are a whole bunch of owners who hate the 10spd. I have close to 90K on my '19 Odyssey, changed the ATF twice, and Its been problem free.
 
#3 ·
@Madtiger11 , maybe you need a Sprint Booster.

Honda has always seemed to put much more thought into their cars vs their SUVs and trucks. Toyota has been the same way, although they are starting to direct a little more attention to their trucks now.

I think the Japanese have the mentality that we had back prior to the mid-90s, that trucks are for work and cars are for transportation.
 
#5 ·
Or a Pedal Commander which I think is the best one on the market.

 
#4 ·
If you think transmission/throttle response on the Ridgeline is bad, go drive a Tacoma. But I do agree, the transmission/throttle response tuning could use some improvement. I still love the truck though and wouldn't trade her for anything else, at least not at the moment. 😉

@smufguy I may have to try a tank of premium just for grins. Of course, I'll have to take out a second mortgage first. 😲
 
#25 ·
If you think transmission/throttle response on the Ridgeline is bad, go drive a Tacoma. But I do agree, the transmission/throttle response tuning could use some improvement. I still love the truck though and wouldn't trade her for anything else, at least not at the moment. 😉
As for Tacoma…sure…it may suck…but it is because Toyota is using an old transmission from 7-10 year ago i think!

I am OK with that if you give me some durability/reliability in exchange. Can you say the same about the ZF transmission? I don’t know. Some folks here swear by ZF…and then you read other Honda forums who crap on its durability/reliability.
 
#7 ·
Yeah sure…maybe. But some trucks /SUVs have sluggish throttle on purpose for off-roading purpose…fancier ones adjust throttle response if you put it into 4-LO/Hi.

But Ridgeline is an on-road vehicle...in the same vein as unibody SUVs or other soccer mom type cars. So, on-road driving experience should be consistent with other Honda vehicles. There is no downside to making Ridgeline more responsive. Some of my issue is with the crappy ZF transmission...no way around that.
 
#8 ·
I can’t speak for electric cars because I haven’t driven one, but I know on my electric motorcycle, the direct drive motor gives me instant reponse to throttle input. There is no transmission, no drive train slop, just a direct connection. Maybe if the Ridgeline was electric and had no transmission at all, you’d get that instant response you’re looking for.
 
#11 ·
My 2022 RL is in shop due to brake noise. Tech is unsure what is wrong. So, i have a loaner…2022 Honda HRV. MRSP is $25k.

The car is OK. Noisy. Suspension too firm for my taste. Bad seating. Tons of road noise! I would not buy it for sure.

But damn, the throttle is perfect. The powertrain moves to my right foot perfectly. No lag. No rubber necking because your body expect something and your car does not respond. No hesitation. Smooth. Mid corner throttle or braking? No problem.

And this is on ECO mode!!! Oh, no crappy auto-start/stop to ruin the experience. No need for Sport/Sequential mode either because throttle response is perfect. Surprisingly, the HRV’s CVT is well-behaved. (Note, i have not off-roaded the HRV or tow etc. to comment on CVT in those situations.)

Why is it that Honda got the throttle so right on HRV and yet so wrong on the fancy Ridgeline?? RL’s engine is great i am sure. But the throttle tuning and ZF 9-speed are just a disaster IMHO. ECO mode on RL is useless...might as well put a pillow behind the gas pedal. The fancy ZF shifting is pure crap. Sport/Sequential mode is too aggressive for daily driving. Non-S mode makes the engine into a non-boosted 3-cylinder slow poke. It is sad when I have to use S-mode just to merge onto highway ramp! A simple task as accelerating from stop is painfully slow because ZF starts in 2nd gear! And then you add in the useless auto-start/stop crap that damages engines apparently!

I love the RL. One of the best cars i have ever owned. Extremely practical. But the powertrain tuning and/or transmission leave A LOT to be desired.

Sorry for rant.
Well put. Same exact thing with a Passport. A lot is lost with that trans and its tuning. It feels like it's sacrificing so much for the MPG's. Considering it's a 9 speed it should have responsiveness all over the place but it's asleep. It's gets a little old when a silky smooth and refined 280 hp engine usually requires a downshift with the slightest push of the gas pedal and even that takes forever. I've been spoiled by Hybrids with their lighting quick responses to pedal input. You don't need paddle shifters or trickery, just control everything with your right foot. Other similar pairings have similar issues but IMO the Toyota 8 speed is better but not in the league of an E-CVT. It just shows how important a good mating of an engine and transmission is to the overall driving experience.

Ever notice how those HRV's seem to always be passing cars on the highway and you wonder how it can do that with a motorcycle sized engine and slow 0-60 times. There is a big difference between real world driving and 0-60 instrumented tests.

Hopefully the 10 speed will make this a non-issue but it's 2022 this is 2015 tech that will be around for another generation.
 
#16 ·
IMO the Toyota 8 speed is better but not in the league of an E-CVT. It just shows how important a good mating of an engine and transmission is to the overall driving experience.

Ever notice how those HRV's seem to always be passing cars on the highway and you wonder how it can do that with a motorcycle sized engine and slow 0-60 times. There is a big difference between real world driving and 0-60 instrumented tests.

Hopefully the 10 speed will make this a non-issue but it's 2022 this is 2015 tech that will be around for another generation.
My LC’s 8-speed is very smooth and pretty good…not the best that i have used but light years better than RL’s ZF.
 
#21 ·
The wife's 2008 Accord has the same five-speed as the G1, and it's a rocket (despite having the problematic 3,4,6 VCM 2). Of course, it is also a half-ton lighter, which makes a huge difference.

It is noticeably quicker than my '19 Ridgeline, despite having less power and one less gear. The weight plays as much of a factor as anything when we're dealing with torque that comes on higher in the rpm band.

That being said, I do believe that Honda has engineered a slight delay in the throttle response on the G2 Ridgeline (further exacerbated by the 2nd gear start in the nine-speed). I don't know if that would be for MPG, emissions or just general safety.

At any rate, a Sprint Booster or Pedal Commander should fix the issue for those who are bothered by it.
 
#14 ·
My 2022 RL is in shop due to brake noise. Tech is unsure what is wrong. So, i have a loaner…2022 Honda HRV. MRSP is $25k.

The car is OK. Noisy. Suspension too firm for my taste. Bad seating. Tons of road noise! I would not buy it for sure.

But damn, the throttle is perfect. The powertrain moves to my right foot perfectly. No lag. No rubber necking because your body expect something and your car does not respond. No hesitation. Smooth. Mid corner throttle or braking? No problem.

And this is on ECO mode!!! Oh, no crappy auto-start/stop to ruin the experience. No need for Sport/Sequential mode either because throttle response is perfect. Surprisingly, the HRV’s CVT is well-behaved. (Note, i have not off-roaded the HRV or tow etc. to comment on CVT in those situations.)

Why is it that Honda got the throttle so right on HRV and yet so wrong on the fancy Ridgeline?? RL’s engine is great i am sure. But the throttle tuning and ZF 9-speed are just a disaster IMHO. ECO mode on RL is useless...might as well put a pillow behind the gas pedal. The fancy ZF shifting is pure crap. Sport/Sequential mode is too aggressive for daily driving. Non-S mode makes the engine into a non-boosted 3-cylinder slow poke. It is sad when I have to use S-mode just to merge onto highway ramp! A simple task as accelerating from stop is painfully slow because ZF starts in 2nd gear! And then you add in the useless auto-start/stop crap that damages engines apparently!

I love the RL. One of the best cars i have ever owned. Extremely practical. But the powertrain tuning and/or transmission leave A LOT to be desired.

Sorry for rant.
Yep, good points. The S-mode is too aggressive for daily driving. And the regular D mode makes it an unresponsive slug. I'm almost used to it after about 7000 miles. Changed the air filter, which seems to have helped. This is why I've said the CVT /turbo combo in the Accord and CRV are great. I still think about trading this 2022 Ridgeline in for a CR-V, but there's no inventory, and would be a bit of a nightmare navigating though the whole thing.
 
#22 ·
Ummm No. V6s and 4 cylinders are different, have different properties and pedal feel and acceleration (and MPG, and weight feel etc). You use that as a comparison to your Ridgeline and I think that’s comparing apples to oranges. That’s all…
Making a direct comparison to a four-cylinder little peppy thing is, again, apples to oranges. I’m not arguing with you. But Nevermind. Forget I said anything.
 
#27 ·
@smufguy I may have to try a tank of premium just for grins. Of course, I'll have to take out a second mortgage first. 😲
[/QUOTE]
Yes, cost me $102 to fill our Lexus GX SUV, which uses premium gas. But on the other topic, the GX engine and transmission together - like warm butter.
 
#28 ·
@smufguy I may have to try a tank of premium just for grins. Of course, I'll have to take out a second mortgage first. 😲
Yes, cost me $102 to fill our Lexus GX SUV, which uses premium gas. But on the other topic, the GX engine and transmission together - like warm butter.
[/QUOTE]

And the GX powertrain is old! But yeah, i had GX once……smooth as butter! Everything about the GX is smooth as butter! LOL
 
#32 ·
I am wondering if I might be misreading something. Maybe need some new meds.

The OP was comparing an HRV favorably to a Ridgeline? A car that takes almost 9 seconds to get to 60, vs a truck that takes close to 6? And the HRV is somehow better at passing cars on the highway?

IDK. To each his own I guess. I am thinking some people have never driven a truck. Maybe they expect instant torque AND 30 mpg. The Ridgeline is as fast as most trims of the Accord. It is CERTAINLY less sluggish than a Tacoma, which I traded in for the Ridgeline.

If you think it’s a slug, with all respect, I wonder if you just bought the wrong truck. Maybe you can find a Syclone on the used market, or would settle for one of those larger trucks with the big engines that are faster on paper but more expensive and have worse gas mileage.
 
#33 ·
I am wondering if I might be misreading something. Maybe need some new meds.

The OP was comparing an HRV favorably to a Ridgeline? A car that takes almost 9 seconds to get to 60, vs a truck that takes close to 6? And the HRV is somehow better at passing cars on the highway?

IDK. To each his own I guess. I am thinking some people have never driven a truck. Maybe they expect instant torque AND 30 mpg. The Ridgeline is as fast as most trims of the Accord. It is CERTAINLY less sluggish than a Tacoma, which I traded in for the Ridgeline.

If you think it’s a slug, with all respect, I wonder if you just bought the wrong truck. Maybe you can find a Syclone on the used market, or would settle for one of those larger trucks that are faster but more expensive and have worse gas mileage.
Read my signature. I have driven big and small.

When did i write about passing cars? Jeff…put on your reading glasses damnit!

When did I mention fuel economy? And when did i talk about 0-60?

Please re-read my post(s). Your response to me is as nonsense as what you perceived what i meant. :D
 
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#35 ·
My 2022 RL is in shop due to brake noise. Tech is unsure what is wrong. So, i have a loaner…2022 Honda HRV. MRSP is $25k.

The car is OK. Noisy. Suspension too firm for my taste. Bad seating. Tons of road noise! I would not buy it for sure.

But damn, the throttle is perfect. The powertrain moves to my right foot perfectly. No lag. No rubber necking because your body expect something and your car does not respond. No hesitation. Smooth. Mid corner throttle or braking? No problem.

And this is on ECO mode!!! Oh, no crappy auto-start/stop to ruin the experience. No need for Sport/Sequential mode either because throttle response is perfect. Surprisingly, the HRV’s CVT is well-behaved. (Note, i have not off-roaded the HRV or tow etc. to comment on CVT in those situations.)

Why is it that Honda got the throttle so right on HRV and yet so wrong on the fancy Ridgeline?? RL’s engine is great i am sure. But the throttle tuning and ZF 9-speed are just a disaster IMHO. ECO mode on RL is useless...might as well put a pillow behind the gas pedal. The fancy ZF shifting is pure crap. Sport/Sequential mode is too aggressive for daily driving. Non-S mode makes the engine into a non-boosted 3-cylinder slow poke. It is sad when I have to use S-mode just to merge onto highway ramp! A simple task as accelerating from stop is painfully slow because ZF starts in 2nd gear! And then you add in the useless auto-start/stop crap that damages engines apparently!

I love the RL. One of the best cars i have ever owned. Extremely practical. But the powertrain tuning and/or transmission leave A LOT to be desired.

Sorry for rant.
Wow, granted I’m new to my 22 Ridgeline if you think it’s bad try a third Gen Tacoma. Complete trash with gear hunting and rev’ing like crazy. It was probably the worst tranny/engine combo I’ve ever been in. Only have 400 miles on the Ridgeline so far but smooth as butter.
 
#40 ·
Of the 20+ Hondas I have owned, one of the most surprising was the Honda fit Sport. Even with 105 Hp, it was geared in a way that made it pretty damn fast off the line (but absolutely terrible accelerating starting from say 60) and it handled like a go-cart.

But. Ive said this before, I had the 8 speed dual clutch tranny in an Acura TLX, More gears absolutely suck. When I stomped the gas in that TLX, it would down fast... sure... but no power... then shift down again and then shift down again to the point where I finally got the acceleration I wanted after 3 seconds of waiting. I couldn't imagine how bad a 9 speed would be in a big heavy vehicle like the Ridgeline (and its not even double clutch right???)... you couldn't pay me to take the 9 speed.

My 6 speed ridgeline has exactly the acceleration I want and need at any time.
 
#42 ·
"Honda fit Sport. Even with 105 Hp, it was geared in a way that made it pretty damn fast off the line (but absolutely terrible accelerating starting from say 60) and it handled like a go-cart."

That sounds fun, race it on a short curvy autocross in a parking lot or put gravel tires on it and rally it on a small curvy rallyx course. I rallyed in a '96 Legacy wagon and a early '00s Impreza, both were really fun even they they were slow. Can't go too fast on short curvy tracks anyways. It's really fun.

Edited the incorrect quote, I don't know how to correctly quote in forums apparently.
 
#43 ·
When I put heavier 265/60/18 tires on my 2020 RTL-E, it felt like I had to keep hitting the gas just to keep it moving. My 2022 feels pretty responsive due to the stock wheel/tire combo and I "taught" my transmission how I like to drive.
 
#60 ·
I think that you are on to something with respect to the "learning" transmission. If driven from good MPG for some time it's going to upshift early and drive in a sedate manner. If driver is suddenly looking for a more sporty experience the paddle shifters will be needed until the transmission control module adjusts to the driver's need for speed.
 
#46 ·
I’d agree with the apples and oranges comment. Ironically I traded a ‘21 CRV for my ‘22 Ridgeline. I can see the point about the response, but in my opinion the CVT was horrible. Overall the CRV was noisy and sounded like an angry bumblebee. When I test drove my Ridgeline, it was like a Cadillac. The CRV had no get up and go and to me had a bit more of a lag. I understand these things are subjective, but the only thing I miss about my CRV is the MPG. I needed a larger vehicle because my work requires me to drive my own vehicle and haul parts.
 
#47 ·
I cannot comment on CRV…have not driven it. Oh yeah, the HRV from 0-60 is slow, no doubt. But that is not why i made this thread. The HRV has no lag to your right leg, whether from stop light or passing on highway, but that may be due to CVT? Sure it is slow but the response to your right foot is what i am talking about. It may not win 0-60 but off the light, it is ”quick” to respond to my right foot.

The RL has a soft get up and go when you press gas pedal, exacerbated by auto-stop/start. And that is because ZF/Honda chose to start in 2nd gear (in Normal mode)…something that other makers only use in their “SNOW” mode and for good reason. And if it is because 1st gear & diff ratio are too low (numerically high), then that is just bad planning by Honda/ZF to compensate for.

Or when i am merging onto highway everyday going to work after a sweeping turn-in, i find that the ZF response in Normal mode to be lacking and soft…and requires me to really push the gas pedal deep just to get enough response from the transmission and thus adequate engine power. So, everyday, i have to remember to push the S-mode button to feel more confident merging. Why do i have to do this? My Acura does fine in normal mode In this same exact situation…power when i need it. My LC is fine but that is apple to orange. And, surprisingly, HRV does great…no need to pound my gas pedal nor wait for transmission to decide (maybe due to CVT?). Despite HRV being slow as heck as pointed out above, the merging aspect is fine. Kept with oncoming traffic without me having to slam the gas pedal nor switch to different mode.

As noted above, the 3.5 V6 is a great responsive engine when it is in the right gear and/or when throttle is on-point. But the throttle tuning and/or ZF tranny just neuters the hell out of this great engine. I get it IF this occurs in ECO mode. I am all for that. But this happens in Normal mode…it is like having ECO and ECO Plus! And then you have S-mode that is too far to the other extreme. And even then only S-mode does not get remembered by the car when you shut it off.

(Note that in the upcoming Acura Integra, i hear that auto-start/stop OFF selection is permanent…so, clearly Honda/Acura understands the absurdity of this feature.)
 
#48 ·
Perhaps it's not Honda that got it wrong. Perhaps it is the buyer that got it wrong. It happens.

The vehicle I went home with was the vehicle that I test drove. It wasn't a 5 minute around the block test drive. I drove the vehicle in all conditions including on the interstate, both merging and passing, as well as slow traffic, rough side streets etc. I was aware of how the vehicle handled before I decided to buy it and was satisfied with how it performed. I was satisfied with the performance of a couple of other vehicles I test drove as well and found myself disappointed in some of the others. The Honda however ticked off more boxes than the others so my daily driver is sitting in the garage right now.

As for the ZF9, it performs as expected, including merging into traffic or passing slower traffic. After all the Ridfgeline is a truck, just as it't sisters the Pilot and Passport are SUV's not performance vehicles.
 
#50 ·
Generally agree with that.
I think the only differences here are that…unlike the weakness of the infotainment system…the trucks efficiency, acceleration, merging, transmission, braking, appearance, seat comfort, visibility, etc.…those are ALL things a buyer can actually assess and accept as they research then test drive then sign the piece of paper. I read the original post using a comparison to a four-cylinder vehicle as an flawed comparison/complaint…”apple and oranges”. But the OP’er clarified this somewhat.
I know for sure that when I bought my Ridgeline, I made an assessment on everything I could see and research before and after my test drive. The weak infotainment system was not as obvious as the transmission/merging or comfort/ride that’s for dang sure. I also know that I have no issues with the transmission or how the truck merges in traffic or the eco mode. Lucky me I guess.
Peace.
 
#51 ·
Generally agree with that.
I think the only differences here are that…unlike the weakness of the infotainment system…the trucks efficiency, acceleration, merging, transmission, braking, appearance, seat comfort, visibility, etc.…those are ALL things a buyer can actually assess and accept as they research then test drive then sign the piece of paper. I read the original post using a comparison to a four-cylinder vehicle as an flawed comparison/complaint…”apple and oranges”. But the OP’er clarified this somewhat.
I know for sure that when I bought my Ridgeline, I made an assessment on everything I could see and research before and after my test drive. The weak infotainment system was not as obvious as the transmission/merging or comfort/ride that’s for dang sure. I also know that I have no issues with the transmission or how the truck merges in traffic or the eco mode. Lucky me I guess.
Peace.
Well aware that I did not buy a rocket. The pluses of the RL overrules the above issues for sure. Like I said on first page, RL is one of the best car I have ever owned. For my family, it is more valuable than my LC. So, sorry to disappoint a few here, I am not selling it anytime soon.

But it is not to say that RL is perfect. And me complaining about it should not cause anyone’s pantries to get twisted. It is just that…a discussion regarding an issue I perceive. YMMV. And apparently I am not alone in having this issue(s).
 
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