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Discussion Starter #1
Exactly. Some of them are making outrageous promises. I would consider an electric truck if it truly had 400 mile range and didn't cost $90k.
Every time I consider think about an electric vehicle, I begin thinking about what is the real purpose for them? Notwithstanding the fact that there is really no evidence that carbon dioxide is harmful to the environment or has any measurable effect on the climate, what is the benefit of electric vehicles? If you take at face value that CO2 does harm the environment does an electric vehicle really reduce emissions? Wind and solar power will never replace fossil fuel power plants in our lifetimes, if ever. Fossil fuel power plants are being used to recharge electric vehicles. Doesn't that defeat the purpose? Many power plants are already strained to the point where they on the verge of blackout during high energy consumption periods. What would happen were hundreds of thousands of electric vehicles to begin sucking power out of the grid? I don't think it would be good. EV proponents live in partial reality. The thought of an electric vehicle sounds good, but, in reality, it may be exacerbating the problems they "feel" it will alleviate. As an aside, I've read that the energy required to produce a giant wind turbine may never produce the same amount of energy that was used to manufacture it, depending on location.
 

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Every time I consider think about an electric vehicle, I begin thinking about what is the real purpose for them? Notwithstanding the fact that there is really no evidence that carbon dioxide is harmful to the environment or has any measurable effect on the climate, what is the benefit of electric vehicles? If you take at face value that CO2 does harm the environment does an electric vehicle really reduce emissions? Wind and solar power will never replace fossil fuel power plants in our lifetimes, if ever. Fossil fuel power plants are being used to recharge electric vehicles. Doesn't that defeat the purpose? Many power plants are already strained to the point where they on the verge of blackout during high energy consumption periods. What would happen were hundreds of thousands of electric vehicles to begin sucking power out of the grid? I don't think it would be good. EV proponents live in partial reality. The thought of an electric vehicle sounds good, but, in reality, it may be exacerbating the problems they "feel" it will alleviate. As an aside, I've read that the energy required to produce a giant wind turbine may never produce the same amount of energy that was used to manufacture it, depending on location.
You mean my college professor lied to me? :cry:
 

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I love driving electric vehicles. I like the mechanical simplicity, quietness, instant torque, and very low maintenance. I don't have to leave home to "fill up", there's no engine oil and filter to change, no spark plugs, no valves to adjust, no timing belt to replace, etc. However, I can't see myself paying a premium for one.

I am a prime candidate for an EV. Electricity is relatively inexpensive here. My daily commute is 30 miles. Very rarely, I'll make a 100-250 mile round trip.

For the last few weeks, I've been riding my $3,200 Grom to work. It costs 2.3 cents per mile in fuel - about what an EV would cost. My Ridgeline costs 11.4 cents per mile. Even if I drove it every day, it would take over three years to pay for itself and by then the little motorcycle would be at the end of its life and require replacement. I don't think I would ever break even on an EV - by the time I did it would be time for a new one or a replacement battery pack at a cost of thousands of dollars.

Don't get me wrong - I love EV's, but they will remain nothing but a technology showcase at a premium price for the foreseeable future.
 

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I think hybrids will be where its at for a while. I think electric will be more realistic when everything is autonomous, batteries are much better, your car charges when electricity demand is lowest, it drives autonomously in a manner to conserve energy, and most likely you won't even own it. It will be a fleet driverless taxi that comes to take you wherever you need to go.

As for the windmills, i think the plan is to build them now and get the ROI when electricity becomes much more expensive.
 

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I'm strongly considering the RAV4 Hybrid for the wife's next car. Prices have come down enough that a Hybrid can be considered a contender for a mainstream vehicle. It's also faster than the N/A RAV4 so other than the CVT what's not to like? We don't use a lot of gas but the payback to cover the $800 additional cost for the hybrid will be quick.

I once posed the argument that EV's just exchange the tailpipe for the smokestack at the powerplant. Zroger gave me an answer outlining the efficiencies. Either way, there's no infrastructure to cover public charging and then there's the range anxiety when in traffic. Hybrids would be a good compromise until EV's can take over but IMO, that's far off. Here, there are some chargers at the mall and at health clubs but they are always utilized. What are those without garages supposed to do? Right now IMO there's no way that EV's can be done on a mass scale. Yes, a unit of electricity is cheaper than a unit of gas but there's more to it. I also don't vision them driving around in the snow with all that instant torque.
 

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I'm strongly considering the RAV4 Hybrid for the wife's next car. Prices have come down enough that a Hybrid can be considered a contender for a mainstream vehicle. It's also faster than the N/A RAV4 so other than the CVT what's not to like? We don't use a lot of gas but the payback to cover the $800 additional cost for the hybrid will be quick.

I once posed the argument that EV's just exchange the tailpipe for the smokestack at the powerplant. Zroger gave me an answer outlining the efficiencies. Either way, there's no infrastructure to cover public charging and then there's the range anxiety when in traffic. Hybrids would be a good compromise until EV's can take over but IMO, that's far off. Here, there are some chargers at the mall and at health clubs but they are always utilized. What are those without garages supposed to do? Right now IMO there's no way that EV's can be done on a mass scale. Yes, a unit of electricity is cheaper than a unit of gas but there's more to it. I also don't vision them driving around in the snow with all that instant torque.
Hence, the hybrid RL coming out before a fully electric one.

IMO, the infrastructure for EVs is being built, but slowly. And they’re really not practical for long range driving because of the charging time that’s required. It is the future but we’re not there yet.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
If EVs are to become truly viable, we will have to increase power plant capacity immensely. The problem with that is the same people who fawn over EVs don't want new power plants built. The only alternative to fossil fuel power plants, currently, is nuclear. They don't want that either. What's the solution?
 

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If EVs are to become truly viable, we will have to increase power plant capacity immensely. The problem with that is the same people who fawn over EVs don't want new power plants built. The only alternative to fossil fuel power plants, currently, is nuclear. They don't want that either. What's the solution?
Thank you for this decidely political and factually unsupported post. Plenty of data out there on electricity and demand historic and projected, and it isn't cars driving it.
 

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Getting off-topic here, but solar is becoming a more viable option for some folks. A solar panel isn't going to charge a car, but it can charge a bank of batteries that can charge a car. As mentioned earlier, battery tech needs to improve a lot, also (Honda has been doing some work on that). There are also other undeveloped power generation methods, such as harnessing tidal flows or wave action. Waves can be thought of as concentrated windpower.

Meanwhile, hybrids are a viable option for the near future. The battery bank can be charged from the ICE, and more importantly, from regenerative braking (which could also be improved).

No doubt there is plenty of oil out there, but a couple good scares (hurricanes, political, or otherwise) can easily bump gas prices and provide the next push for next-gen technology. I'm sure the oil companies are aware of this, and will work to keep fuel prices at palatable levels.

Getting back on-topic, I'll repeat that i think Honda could bring a 3500lb-towing hybrid Ridgeline to market, same as FWD Ridgelines. All they would need to do is limit or disconnect the hybrid portion while in tow mode. It would be desirable to maintain regenerative braking while in tow mode, and perhaps tap into the electric when above, say, 70-80% capacity.
 

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We're becoming a more and more electricity dependent society, when the power grid goes down, be it of natural or man made, ( villainous?), cause, the country comes to an immediate stand still. Sounds like the makings for a movie?

Bill
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Thank you for this decidely political and factually unsupported post. Plenty of data out there on electricity and demand historic and projected, and it isn't cars driving it.
When did facts become political? Only you have "decided" that it is political. California already faces brown-outs and black-outs. Do you really think adding an incalculable drain to a questionable power grid won't have a substantial effect without increasing power supplies (which the left won't do)?
 

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If EVs are to become truly viable, we will have to increase power plant capacity immensely. The problem with that is the same people who fawn over EVs don't want new power plants built. The only alternative to fossil fuel power plants, currently, is nuclear. They don't want that either. What's the solution?
It takes electricity to pump the crude oil from the ground to the refinery. It takes electricity to refine the crude oil into gasoline. It takes electricity to pump it into the vehicle. In hybrids, the gasoline is converted back into electricity to run the motor. :) With fewer vehicles requiring gasoline, there will be more power available to charge EV's.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
It takes electricity to pump the crude oil from the ground to the refinery. It takes electricity to refine the crude oil into gasoline. It takes electricity to pump it into the vehicle. In hybrids, the gasoline is converted back into electricity to run the motor. :) With fewer vehicles requiring gasoline, there will be more power available to charge EV's.
The majority of oil rigs run on diesel generators, although there are some A/C rigs out there. There are pros and cons to both sources of energy. Look at the damage done to the environment caused by lithium mining. How about the fossil fuel usage to mine the lithium with those giant machines? What happens to all of the depleted lithium batteries? Until a substitute is invented for fossil fuel power plants, the EV revolution is dead in its tracks. Google has given up on so-called "renewable energy" investment for now.

https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/aug/10/electric-cars-big-battery-waste-problem-lithium-recycling
 

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Thank you for this decidely political and factually unsupported post. Plenty of data out there on electricity and demand historic and projected, and it isn't cars driving it.
Yes to the above. How about we skip the Global Warming / EV viablilty, etc political tinderbox discussions here??? Believe what you want on these subjects but please feel the need NOT to share. . . .
 

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We're becoming a more and more electricity dependent society, when the power grid goes down, be it of natural or man made, ( villainous?), cause, the country comes to an immediate stand still. Sounds like the makings for a movie?

Bill
I have 35 panels on my house and an inverter so when the grid goes down I'm good to go.
Also been daily driving an electric vehicle for over 5 years now. Guess how much I have spent in fuel powering it? $0. I would have already bought a powerwall or something equivalent to cover me at night but the battery storage for solar is still in in its' infancy for residential use.

What's funny is the truth is the opposite to what you stated. The more solar we use the more energy independent we become from the rest of the world. The sun provides free juice. Take oil for example. 14% of our oil use still comes from the middle east, a region I loathe for many reasons. If we migrate more petro use to electric, we can be completely oil independent from the rest of the world and tell OPEC what to do with itself. Solar, wind, hydro, and we can reduce our oil usage. Oil will always be part of the equation so the goal shouldn't be political this or climate that, but total energy independence. That bleeds over to national security.
 

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I have 35 panels on my house and an inverter so when the grid goes down I'm good to go.
Also been daily driving an electric vehicle for over 5 years now. Guess how much I have spent in fuel powering it? $0. I would have already bought a powerwall or something equivalent to cover me at night but the battery storage for solar is still in in its' infancy for residential use.

What's funny is the truth is the opposite to what you stated. The more solar we use the more energy independent we become from the rest of the world. The sun provides free juice. Take oil for example. 14% of our oil use still comes from the middle east, a region I loathe for many reasons. If we migrate more petro use to electric, we can be completely oil independent from the rest of the world and tell OPEC what to do with itself. Solar, wind, hydro, and we can reduce our oil usage. Oil will always be part of the equation so the goal shouldn't be political this or climate that, but total energy independence. That bleeds over to national security.
And your solar panels were most likely manufactured in China as the majority of solar panels sold in the U.S. are from China.
 

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And your solar panels were most likely manufactured in China as the majority of solar panels sold in the U.S. are from China.
MAYBE (or maybe not) but what exactly is your point? If the US is not a top producer then why exactly is that? China has made it a fundamental policy goal to be a leader of the Solar industry. US has not done the same.

None this is really a good argument as to why you should or shouldn't have solar panels on your roof.

Having an EV and then also panels providing the vast majority of the battery charging for it, virtually eliminates all emissions associated with direct use of the vehicle. You are left with the environmental footprint of the production, maintenance (minimal), and disposal of the vehicle itself and the panels. . . I can promise you that those impacts are hugely lower than that of an ICE vehicle over its lifetime.

With grid power the method of production of course has an impact. If you live in West Virginia with the CURRENT electrical system, the EV will see most of its charging if done on grid by coal. The footprint is going to be larger and only marginally better than an efficient ICE vehicle. If you live in Vermont your footprint is going to be WAY smaller than even the most efficient ICE vehicle.

The electric vehicle is already here and in 15 years this entire debate will probably seem ridiculous. The infrastructure will grow and the technology will improve and become cheaper. Range, towing, recharge rates will be non issues. How about the efficiency, instant torque, power control, AWD capabilities, simplicity / lack of maintenance, packaging ease? The vehicles will themselves be better.
 

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MAYBE (or maybe not) but what exactly is your point? If the US is not a top producer then why exactly is that? China has made it a fundamental policy goal to be a leader of the Solar industry. US has not done the same.

None this is really a good argument as to why you should or shouldn't have solar panels on your roof.

Having an EV and then also panels providing the vast majority of the battery charging for it, virtually eliminates all emissions associated with direct use of the vehicle. You are left with the environmental footprint of the production, maintenance (minimal), and disposal of the vehicle itself and the panels. . . I can promise you that those impacts are hugely lower than that of an ICE vehicle over its lifetime.

With grid power the method of production of course has an impact. If you live in West Virginia with the CURRENT electrical system, the EV will see most of its charging if done on grid by coal. The footprint is going to be larger and only marginally better than an efficient ICE vehicle. If you live in Vermont your footprint is going to be WAY smaller than even the most efficient ICE vehicle.

The electric vehicle is already here and in 15 years this entire debate will probably seem ridiculous. The infrastructure will grow and the technology will improve and become cheaper. Range, towing, recharge rates will be non issues. How about the efficiency, instant torque, power control, AWD capabilities, simplicity / lack of maintenance, packaging ease? The vehicles will themselves be better.
My point is you are being HYPOCRITICAL about your use of solar panels to get off the need for importing fossil fuels when the solar panels are imported as well! Look I am all for cleaner/cheaper energy but we need to be realistic about this and not jump off any Green New Deal cliffs just to get away from using oil for energy.
 
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