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Discussion Starter #1
Re: Safety Recall: Rear Wire Harness/Rear Subframe Harness

If anyone can access recalls, there is an update as of today. 1-7-2017. A repair part# has been issued, but not available as of yet.

I got a phone call from my dealer. They say updated parts are available.

Will be going in next week.

Harness full blown comparison coming soon.
 

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Re: Safety Recall: Rear Wire Harness/Rear Subframe Harness

I appreciate the reply. However, I do not own a G2 RL. I am trying to find out if Honda has remedied this problem at the factory with a new harness design.

In the event I consider purchasing an AWD G2, I want to know the VIN number after which the problem has been permanently corrected. I also would like to know if Honda has not yet corrected this issue in production.

If anyone has answers, I'd be grateful to hear them. Thanks!
The affected vehicles had harnesses that weren't built to "spec." Spec harnesses were installed during production starting in mid August.

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2016/RCLRPT-16V888-2363.PDF
 

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Re: Safety Recall: Rear Wire Harness/Rear Subframe Harness

If the fix is available and you do not have it done and then it causes an accident due to uncommanded braking, guess who is on the hook for the accident? Certainly not Honda and it might even be the case that your insurance would refuse to pay because you did not have the recommended recall done.

Sure, not likely, and I am not a lawyer (thankfully), but I can see how not doing what you are expected to do as a vehicle owner might have legal consequences.
No, you're not a lawyer.......

"Even if you take advantage of every recall option available, you may still file a civil lawsuit for damages. For instance, the recall of faulty brake pads will provide options for repair, replacement, or refund. But those remedies don't cover any injuries you may have sustained from an accident resulting from the faulty part."

i.e a manufacturer can't force you to bring in your car and they are still liable for any damages resulting from a "brake lock-up" - even if your vehicle has a recall. That's why, in the past, manufacturers have not issued safety recalls out of the "goodness of their hearts" as the cost of liability pay-outs is far less than the cost of repairing thousands of vehicles. That's why the NHTSA forces the issue these days.....
 

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Re: Safety Recall: Rear Wire Harness/Rear Subframe Harness

We can all speculate and have theories about the A fix but the C601 has got to stay where it is (not the cab) because it's other half is the rear sub harness which is also the same part number used by the Honda Pilot. (My sister has a 2017 MDX and there is a C601 like connector in the same location as the RL). Imagine ordering a rear sub harness that has to make it's way to the cab, not going to work. Interesting that the advisor already knows it will be an 8 hour repair but until it's published I'm skeptical but you never know. I don't know what could take 8 hours instead of replacing the bed to have the same outcome as replacing both harnesses. Cheaper in terms of parts perhaps. We need more info about the cab section of the harness, still a mystery.
Very interesting about your point about the C601 position. Makes me wonder what "wiring connection joint" Honda are referring to in the NHTSA filing that was supposed to be in the cab, but is instead under a drain hole. Based on your statement, I would guess the reason they evaluate the C601 as part of the service bulletin process is that it is the most vulnerable component to water intrusion through the wiring connection joint and if it is dry/OK, then the other parts will be too.

Honda states that beginning August 12: "Rear wiring harnesses manufactured to Honda specifications were implemented on the production line." They state that the ones installed prior to that were not to specifications. So I would assume that the only resolution for trucks built prior to August 12 would either be to replace the wiring harnesses that were not manufactured to Honda specifications with those that are; or to somehow modify the faulty harnesses that were installed.
 

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Re: Safety Recall: Rear Wire Harness/Rear Subframe Harness

I appreciate the reply. However, I do not own a G2 RL. I am trying to find out if Honda has remedied this problem at the factory with a new harness design.

In the event I consider purchasing an AWD G2, I want to know the VIN number after which the problem has been permanently corrected. I also would like to know if Honda has not yet corrected this issue in production.

If anyone has answers, I'd be grateful to hear them. Thanks!
The recall is on RLs built before Aug 12. If you are looking to buy a new RL, I doubt there are any pre-8/12 left unsold on dealer lots. The only other way to check would be to enter the serial number on the website or remove the tail light to check the harness date.
 

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Re: Safety Recall: Rear Wire Harness/Rear Subframe Harness

Very interesting about your point about the C601 position. Makes me wonder what "wiring connection joint" Honda are referring to in the NHTSA filing that was supposed to be in the cab, but is instead under a drain hole. Based on your statement, I would guess the reason they evaluate the C601 as part of the service bulletin process is that it is the most vulnerable component to water intrusion through the wiring connection joint and if it is dry/OK, then the other parts will be too.

Honda states that beginning August 12: "Rear wiring harnesses manufactured to Honda specifications were implemented on the production line." They state that the ones installed prior to that were not to specifications. So I would assume that the only resolution for trucks built prior to August 12 would either be to replace the wiring harnesses that were not manufactured to Honda specifications with those that are; or to somehow modify the faulty harnesses that were installed.
I think it's about saving money. If the C601 is dry then no harness replacement per the recall remedy. If it's not to "spec" why then not just replace it? Probably because Honda thinks they can save those that haven't been compromised. If they relocate the C601 then there would have to be a second set of replacement parts VIN# specific which doesn't make sense to me. I don't want to assume too much though. Bill will have the answers shortly when he can visually compare the new parts to the old ones. Really would like to know what is on the cab end of the harness and what that has to do with the C601.
 

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Re: Safety Recall: Rear Wire Harness/Rear Subframe Harness

The affected vehicles had harnesses that weren't built to "spec." Spec harnesses were installed during production starting in mid August.

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2016/RCLRPT-16V888-2363.PDF

The recall is on RLs built before Aug 12. If you are looking to buy a new RL, I doubt there are any pre-8/12 left unsold on dealer lots. The only other way to check would be to enter the serial number on the website or remove the tail light to check the harness date.

Thanks! Much appreciated.
 

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Re: Safety Recall: Rear Wire Harness/Rear Subframe Harness

If anyone can access recalls, there is an update as of today. A repair part# has been issued, but not available as of yet.

I got a phone call from my dealer. They say updated parts are available.

Will be going in next week.

Harness full blown comparison coming soon.
I just got this January 7th TSB 16-093 05501 Version 3 from the great guy at www.HardTopGuy.com today...credit where credit is due. :) Looks like the fix if VERY involved! :rolleyes:

See the 3 PDF Below Pages 1-10; Pages 11-20; and then Pages 21-25.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Re: Safety Recall: Rear Wire Harness/Rear Subframe Harness

Looks as if it comes down to pin#7 inside C601.

Repair procedure A is now listed, and directs you to add a sub harness if no corrosion is found, which seems to move the feed for this one pin to an in-cab location.

This beg a question, where does pin#7 lead to on the old harness? This should be the pinpoint water entry spot.

Definitely have some investigating to do now.
 

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Re: Safety Recall: Rear Wire Harness/Rear Subframe Harness

I take it that, No. 7 from C601 is not a home run connection to the inside harness connector iVTM control unit connector 24P, but on vehicles after August 12th it is?
Or it needs to be a home run connection to C133?
 

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Re: Safety Recall: Rear Wire Harness/Rear Subframe Harness

Sorry for the editing, I interpreted incorrectly.

It seems overwhelming, but at least bed removal is not necessary for repair procedure A. Prodecure A is for those in the recall group with a harness date before 8/9/16 and were dry at C601.

1) There was a bad splice on a wire (that was probably spliced somewhere outside the cab) (Never thought you could be allowed to splice a wire anywhere without it being some part of a junction/connector).

I'm not sure what this means for those that have already had the bed off and the main harness replaced.

All they are doing is abandoning a wire and inserting a new wire (sub chord repair kit). This is a lot better than removing the bed. It's sort of like adding a ground wire to an older home without a ground wire.

So procedure A takes care of the bad splice by the cab problem but has nothing to do with water intrusion with C601 because remember procedure A is for those that were dry upon inspection.

Repair procedure C says to replace the rear subharness even if there is no water or corrosion at the C601 connector. Remember though that repair C is for those that have a recall but their harness is dated after 8/9/16.

Repair procedure B is for those that have a harness date before and after 8/9/16 but are wet. This is where everything needs to replaced with bed removal.

One of my original questions is still unanswered however. How did Honda determine if you are part of the recall if your harness is dated after 8/9/16? Remember all harnesses after 8/9/16 have nothing to do with the splice by the cab. Honda must feel really sure that C601 is safe from water intrusion if you are not part of the recall, me not so much.
Going forward, If any RL's present a wet C601 and are not part of the recall, Honda will have a major problem on their hands. Personally, I think a shield or tape of the connector couldn't hurt.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Re: Safety Recall: Rear Wire Harness/Rear Subframe Harness

When I remove my original harness (dated 7-27-16) I will trace pin 7 through the entire harness and see where changes were made if any.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Re: Safety Recall: Rear Wire Harness/Rear Subframe Harness

Yes, to do the updated harness, it's the only way to source the underlying cause to it's origin.
 

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Re: Safety Recall: Rear Wire Harness/Rear Subframe Harness

Repair procedure A to me looks like maybe the cable harness supplier used the wrong diameter wire for pin 7 of C601. So with the incorrect wire diameter, C601 gasket for pin 7 would not keep water from entering the back side of pin 7. Honda fix is to replace the wire with a larger size diameter wire to seal the connector C601 pin 7.
 

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Re: Safety Recall: Rear Wire Harness/Rear Subframe Harness

....
One of my original questions is still unanswered however. How did Honda determine if you are part of the recall if your harness is dated after 8/9/16? Remember all harnesses after 8/9/16 have nothing to do with the splice by the cab. Honda must feel really sure that C601 is safe from water intrusion if you are not part of the recall, me not so much.
Going forward, If any RL's present a wet C601 and are not part of the recall, Honda will have a major problem on their hands. Personally, I think a shield or tape of the connector couldn't hurt.
Thanks for the excellent summary.

Your doubts above (in bold) sort of go back to my question about the range of this recall. Info provided above by others says that post-August 12 production is not subject to the recall. Why not? Did they truly fix the issue, or have they simply not expanded the recall yet to include all affected vehicles? Do post-Aug. 12 vehicles have the exact same C601 connector?

I have been through recalls with Honda before and seen how they get expanded. First they insist you're in the clear, then you're not.

I guess I'm looking for some kind of verification that the problem components have actually been modified to correct the issue. Has anyone confirmed with a physical examine of these harnesses on post-Aug 12 vehicles?

My apologies if this has been covered in the thread -- it's too long to wade through in entirety and from what I read at the beginning 10 pages or so the info seemed to change repeatedly.
 

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Re: Safety Recall: Rear Wire Harness/Rear Subframe Harness

Repair procedure A to me looks like maybe the cable harness supplier used the wrong diameter wire for pin 7 of C601. So with the incorrect wire diameter, C601 gasket for pin 7 would not keep water from entering the back side of pin 7. Honda fix is to replace the wire with a larger size diameter wire to seal the connector C601 pin 7.
Hmmmm...seems if that was just it, the fix would be to just add some 3M 5200 to where it goes into the connector and call it a day though...*shrugs*
 

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Re: Safety Recall: Rear Wire Harness/Rear Subframe Harness

I think that this definitely argues for doing something more to protect the C601 itself once the repairs are complete. Myself, I am not totally convinced that the problem addressed by repair "A" is the only possible issue. At the very least I would also use the grease on C601. Pretty harmless and might help.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Re: Safety Recall: Rear Wire Harness/Rear Subframe Harness

In short, based solely on the wording of repair procedure A, this is how I take it:

-water is moving into C601 through pin 7, upstream of C601. Moving the upstream source of pin 7 into the cab prevents the water entry

Based on that, I will be able to locate the orginal upstream location, and source of the water intrusion by following pin 7 upstream, in both the old and new harness.

Hoping to have the new harness in hand by the end of this week.
 

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Re: Safety Recall: Rear Wire Harness/Rear Subframe Harness

In short, based solely on the wording of repair procedure A, this is how I take it:

-water is moving into C601 through pin 7, upstream of C601. Moving the upstream source of pin 7 into the cab prevents the water entry

Based on that, I will be able to locate the orginal upstream location, and source of the water intrusion by following pin 7 upstream, in both the old and new harness.

Hoping to have the new harness in hand by the end of this week.
So, wonder if just sealing pin 7 at C601 would prevent the water intrusion?
 
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