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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
http://www.autonews.com/article/20160622/OEM01/160629929/kia-leads-industry-in-j-d-power-quality-study

"...Honda tumbled to 24th overall [in the Initial Quality Study] after finishing 14th last year…"

Automotive Ratings and Reviews | J.D. Power


Ratings by category:
http://www.jdpower.com/ratings/awards/AUTOS/Initial-Quality-Study-(IQS)-by-Category/1221ENG#

Ratings by manufacturer:
http://www.jdpower.com/ratings/study/Initial-Quality-Study-(IQS)-by-Make/1222ENG

From the press release:

http://www.jdpower.com/press-releases/2016-us-initial-quality-study-iqs

"...The study, now in its 30th year, examines problems experienced by vehicle owners during the first 90 days of ownership. Initial quality is determined by the number of problems experienced per 100 vehicles (PP100), with a lower score reflecting higher quality…"

"...The 2016 U.S. Initial Quality Study is based on responses from more than 80,000 purchasers and lessees of new 2016 model-year vehicles surveyed after 90 days of ownership. The study is based on a 233-question battery organized into eight problem categories designed to provide manufacturers with information to facilitate the identification of problems and drive product improvement. The study was fielded from February through May 2016…"

In the category of Midsize SUV, the new Pilot ranked last place:
http://www.jdpower.com/ratings/study/2016-Initial-Quality-Study-(IQS)-by-Category/1221ENG/Midsize-SUV/1085
 

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I just looked at those ratings, and some are nonsensical. I wonder if JD Power accepts payments from car companies? I looked at the light duty trucks, and the Ford F-150 is second to last even though it is the top of Consumer Reports and a lot of other ratings. I own an F-150 and test drove a Tundra. There is no way the Tundra should be rated higher on body, interior, features and accessories. The Tundra is outdated and lack a lot of features. It also has more road noise and poorer ride quality than the F-150.

It seems that JD Power pulls these ratings out of their rear end.
 

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Same as every year. If your brand is high, it's all high fives and proud ownership. If your brand is low, then it's flawed and should be dismissed altogether. :act030:
 

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One really needs to keep the metrics of the IQS summary in perspective. It is simply a count of the number of problems reported by owners per 100 vehicles. AFAIK, they don't differentiate between minor and major problems, or how quickly the dealer fixes the problem. Also, it can be easily skewed by one or two models of a particular make having an unusually high number of problems. I think the ratings may be somewhat useful in showing how an automaker is improving or falling behind in overall quality, but you would need to dig a lot deeper into the specifics of the reported problems to understand the average score and whether or not it is relevant to the vehicle model you are looking to buy. Just my opinion...
 

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This is a totally different metric than reliability right? I would have a hard time believing that Kia, Hyundai, Porsche and BMW are the most reliable brands out there
Yes, this has no bearing on "predicted" reliability. JD power is useless IMO. If you like the way the car is you're probably going to like it. If you want to shoot for reliability, pick a brand/model that has proven itself. It's all you can do. No one knows exactly what this truck will be like in 10 years.
 

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And JD Power gives the cars with the worst overall reliability reasons awesome marks for initial quality (Dodge/Chrysler products anyone?). My 4 1/2 year old could pick better vehicles then them.
 

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Just to reiterate "INITIAL" quality. Number of problems (big/small makes no difference) during the first 90 days of ownership. Windshield washer fluid 4oz too low and the transmission failing in the first 90 days is weighted the same. This particular survey does nothing to tell us about predicted reliability of the brand.

The industry average is 105 problems per 100 cars. That is quite telling of what kind of picking of nits is happening here.

I have owned 9 brand new cars in my life, had zero "problems" in the first 90 days. Prior to 2008 I had a lot of exposure to the RV manufacturing industry. Most of the manufacturers had no QA/QC program, they relied the network of dealerships, the consumer, and the warranties of the various component manufacturers for that process. Perhaps that is the trend here as well.
 

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A lot of people have been giving me hell when I tell them about the major assembly quality problems at Honda. It's real folks. Honda is a mess... especially HMA. The new generation has taken over HRA and are a bunch of idiots... the truly talented people are being pushed out or ignored.

Ito set this path years ago and despite the great words and promises of the new regime they are nothing more than hollow words and promises.

If you talked to the people at the "old" Honda they would tell you that Honda was an engineering company. Today they skimp on engineering and have chaos at the assembly level.

Unless Honda makes drastic, expensive changes very soon they'll find themselves in serious trouble in a few years. They've survived on their reputation for quite some time, but as the IQS numbers show Honda today is not what Honda used to be.

I know of stories you wouldn't believe. I was in the auto industry in the darkest days at Chrysler and we shipped a lot of junk... the stories I hear are very familiar to me.

I honestly wish I could say there's a light at the end of the tunnel, but right now I don't see one for Honda.
 

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A lot of people have been giving me hell when I tell them about the major assembly quality problems at Honda. It's real folks. Honda is a mess... especially HMA. The new generation has taken over HRA and are a bunch of idiots... the truly talented people are being pushed out or ignored.

Ito set this path years ago and despite the great words and promises of the new regime they are nothing more than hollow words and promises.

If you talked to the people at the "old" Honda they would tell you that Honda was an engineering company. Today they skimp on engineering and have chaos at the assembly level.

Unless Honda makes drastic, expensive changes very soon they'll find themselves in serious trouble in a few years. They've survived on their reputation for quite some time, but as the IQS numbers show Honda today is not what Honda used to be.

I know of stories you wouldn't believe. I was in the auto industry in the darkest days at Chrysler and we shipped a lot of junk... the stories I hear are very familiar to me.

I honestly wish I could say there's a light at the end of the tunnel, but right now I don't see one for Honda.
That's why gets me. I don't have industry contacts, but I have many technician contacts who all tell me the same thing: Honda's quality had diminished dramatically. As soon as I write that, two or three Honda apologists will basically tell me that I'm wrong and I don't know what I'm talking about. Or as one person put it, technicians never like the vehicles on which they work, which is utter nonsense. Honda had better remove their head from their posterior or they are in deep trouble.

On another note, when I visited the Honda dealership today looking at the new RL, the salespeople had no clue about many of the differentiating features of the OLD model much less the new model. I gave three of them a ten-minute primer on the attributes of the RL. It was totally unbelievable. They were also aghast at how narrow the rear door opening was. They have had no online new model training and the literature about the new RL wasn't even at the dealership yet.
 

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My own experience with reliability has more closely followed what consumer reports publishes... for the small sample size that my vehicle ownership correlates to over the years.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Also from the JD Power press release is this little tidbit:

"...Toyota Motor Corporation’s Georgetown 3 (Kentucky) plant, which produces the Lexus ES, and its Kyushu 2 (Japan) plant, which produces the Lexus ES and Lexus RX, each receive the Platinum Plant Quality Award in a tie for producing models with the fewest defects or malfunctions. Plant quality awards are based solely on defects and malfunctions and exclude design-related problems.

Porsche’s Stuttgart (Germany) plant, which produces the Porsche 911 and Porsche Boxster, receives the Gold Plant Quality Award in the Europe/Africa region…."

No mention was made of Honda or Subaru assembly plants in North America.
 

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Also from the JD Power press release is this little tidbit:

"...Toyota Motor Corporation’s Georgetown 3 (Kentucky) plant, which produces the Lexus ES, and its Kyushu 2 (Japan) plant, which produces the Lexus ES and Lexus RX, each receive the Platinum Plant Quality Award in a tie for producing models with the fewest defects or malfunctions. Plant quality awards are based solely on defects and malfunctions and exclude design-related problems.

Porsche’s Stuttgart (Germany) plant, which produces the Porsche 911 and Porsche Boxster, receives the Gold Plant Quality Award in the Europe/Africa region…."

No mention was made of Honda or Subaru assembly plants in North America.
You must be a JDP subscriber to get the assembly plant rankings. I see the data but can't publish it. Honda's best plant is mediocre. HMA is near the bottom of the list. That's one of the reasons Honda has to move the MDX out of HMA... they can't have an Acura with so many initial quality defects. They don't even have the right tooling to build the vehicle properly. It's a MESS.

There's a reason nearly every MDX has spongy brakes. Wrong equipment. Sad.
 

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Joe I have a question. You have said many times the assembly quality at these plants have suffered. You have also said the new generation has taken over at HRA. Who would YOU say is most responsible for the reliability and quality problems Honda is having? Is it that this new generation is lacking engineering skills and choosing cheep crap to put into the vehicles or is it that the materials are fine its just that the plants cant figure out how to put vehicles together?
 

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Or as one person put it, technicians never like the vehicles on which they work, which is utter nonsense.
I believe you are referring to a post I made, since I was one of the few making a similar statement. However, that is not what I said.

I said "Ignorance is bliss. Not many techs buy what they service. All makes have issues....just some much more than others."

In other words, when you are unaware of the problems of other makes, you are happy to buy one of those other makes. "Not many buy what they service" and
"technicians never like the vehicles on which they work" are very, very different statements.
 

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Joe I have a question. You have said many times the assembly quality at these plants have suffered. You have also said the new generation has taken over at HRA. Who would YOU say is most responsible for the reliability and quality problems Honda is having? Is it that this new generation is lacking engineering skills and choosing cheep crap to put into the vehicles or is it that the materials are fine its just that the plants cant figure out how to put vehicles together?
All of the above. The Ridgeline for example was never engineered... it's just a parts bin compromise. The new R&D guys are pushing out the experience and all they know how to do is let the computer figure out what needs to be done.

Honda has fallen far behind. Check out the Pilot forward collision mitigation... it fails the high speed test. Pretty sad.
 

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83 problems out of every 100 vehicles sold is the BEST mark any manufacturer received in initial quality (first 90 days of ownership). 105 is the industry average. Honda had 119 and Smart had 216. Yet, Honda's a P.O.S? They are all POS when it comes to initial build quality and lots of people like to complain about the slightest thing.

I'll take a car that has 3.5 little tiny things wrong with it when delivered (oil 1/2 qt overfilled, windshield wiper fluid 4oz low., one tire 2psi too low, some plastic remnant left under the door handle, etc.) that ends up giving me 250k+ trouble free miles over the perfectly prepped, shiny turd that has its wheels fall off at 100K every time. But some will choose to refer to the former as a POS and the later the cream of the crop.
 
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