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LPG Tweeters
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Short answer is: no. But you may be confusing resistor for capacitor? If these are like many raw drivers, they aren't supplied with a high pass filter, which includes capacitors or coils & caps. Resistors do something very different - they attenuate output of a driver they are connected to but do not limit frequencies fed to it.
Going strictly from memory, the tweets in question are not supplied with a filter so you'll need to plan for that. Might be best to call Madisound and describe what you have n mind. They'll likely advise you on an appropriate pre-assembled filter or list capacitors & coils to build your own 1st or 2nd order filter.
If you don't go with a pre-assembled filter, you'll be entering mid-level hobbyist territory, so factor that into your plans. Only you know what you are comfortable with achieving in that regard.
On the difference between 8Ω and 4Ω drivers, there is much more to achieving balanced sound than nominal terminal impedance. Such as total circuit resistance presented to the amp, efficiency, cross over point and slope. For the most part, pre-packaged 2 & 3way systems solve all those concerns for the casual DIY hobbyist, so... depending on how far along you are in your build, you may want to either go with a nice system already set to go, or pick the brains of the Madisound guys - they could advise you on mating a door mid-woof and filter network to get the most out of the tweeters you are considering.
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Thanks oh six.. I've been looking at other tweeters like CDT, seas, sundown,and rainbow. a lot of them do not supply crossovers.. Is there a reason why companies won't sell crossover with tweeters.. I know I could make my own up, but I feel safer with 1 from manufacturer...
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Danger! Spewage follows! :act024:
For the most part, band limited speakers sold independent of crossovers and mating components are intended for use by intermediate to advanced hobbyists - but that doesn't mean beginners should be deterred for getting involved.
Similar to building an engine or other multi-component assembly, "book knowledge" only takes a hobbyist so far. When the rubber meets the road, final performance is the sum of knowledge and experience. I have a generic understanding of internal combustion engines and am comfortable under the hood of my vehicles, but there is no way I would attempt to build my own performance engine.
Experience is the costliest part of progressing from beginner to intermediate to advanced and expert levels, because there is no substitute for lessons learned thru trial-and-error - or as a student under guidance of a leaned teacher. The school-of-hard-knocks has a way of teaching hands and minds nuance that can't be conveyed in text form. When it comes to sound, the lessons never end, even for professionals.
In a complex assembly of components like an audio system, achieving excellent system performance begins with knowledge of many elements. On the speaker side of a system, a basic understanding of Thiele-Small parameters, impedance, mass, resistance and laundry list of other parameters. From there mounting location, reflection, diffraction, baffle composition, phase relationships, ETC enter the mix. There are equations to serve as starting points for those things, but it's only thru experimentation that intuition of what works best/where/under what conditions is developed
IMO: a casual hobbyist is wise to purchase a quality pre-packaged two way system for their project. By doing so, most application specific design parameters are solved and they'll end up with a good sounding system.
On the other hand, if a casual hobbyist is interested in taking on a challenge - and wants to test/fine tune their understanding of how things work, experimenting is a fun and rewarding effort. After all, unlike a first time engine built, it's not like a speaker system will cause catastrophic failure if done *wrong*. A guy might burn an amp channel or fry a voice coil, but his vehicle isn't gonna burst into flames because he mis-wired a crossover - so from that perspective, experimenting is fun.
If you've read this far, perhaps this will be helpful:
The LPG's you asked about are interesting. I'm not familiar with them but that doesn't mean a damned thing. One thing is absolutely true in sound - NO ONE can tell you what sounds good. They can only impart what sounds good to them. Your ears may agree or disagree with others, but like seasoning on food, every human has their preference.
ALU domes are known to be brilliant performers. These have very low moving mass which *should* translate to excellent transient response. @ 92db/1W, they are efficient, and with a resonant freq of 1,850, should be solid down to 2.5kHz or so. With those things in mind, you *could* insert a 11uF cap in-line, giving you a first order filter @3.5kHz. That would result in a 6db down point almost exactly @ resonant frequency. Depending on your listening habits, that may be pushing the lower limits of this tweet. As an alternative a 10uF cap would raise the x-over point to 4kHz which would be safer for more enthusiastic listening levels. Some sound guys will spew endlessly about the horrors of 1st order filtering. To them I say: PFFFT! Your ears might disagree with me on that - or not.
Better still, a second order filter @ 3kHz would change their sound tremendously, then the 12db down point would be almost directly in line with resonant freq, probably resulting in a warming low treble while maintaining ALU brilliance. But now we are talking about a cap and coil, so things get a bit more complex from a wiring and installation perspective.
Don't forget, there are assembled crossovers that can do everything needed. The biggest "problem" with most of those is: they aren't necessarily intended to be used in a mobile environment, but as long as there is space, they do the job.
As you can see, these are good reasons to consider purchasing an pre-packaged/pre-engineered two way speaker system.
Best of luck in your quest.
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IMO: you'd probably be happiest with a turn key solution. If I interpret your goals correctly, I'd recommend selecting a pre-packaged two way system in your price range and call it even. Anything that might be gained in a pieced together assembly of woofs/tweets/x-overs at the same price would be marginal.
Now, if you really want to assemble your own, try making use of the resources at Madisound and/or Parts Express. They'll provide invaluable recommendations.
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Bandpass = low and high pass to a single driver. Examples: mid woofer high pass @ 80Hz, low pass @ 500Hz. Or mid range high pass @ 500Hz low pass @ 4kHz. Those examples are passing a band filtered on both low and high sides.
IF you choose to go with a multi-channel amp with built in filtering, keep in mind that adjusting the system will be limited by access to the amp. Not a problem, just a consideration.
Rather than be concerned about how much power a passive network "uses", a more accurate way to compare passive to active filtering is:
1) a passive filter network is fixed, and therefore "limited". Once crossover points are selected for the drivers they are connected to, you are forever "stuck" with them - unless you don't mind the pain of swapping parts in quest of optimal filtering.
2) an active system is (more or less) infinitely adjustable giving you the ability to "tune on the fly".
There are other risks and benefits to both. For the most part, an active system is way more flexible than passive. And, with the careful component selection (meaning a HU or external processor), frequency, time and phase alignment can be made from the drivers seat where it counts most. We are talking audio geek Valhalla here - more than one knob dicker never stops tuning because it's just plain fun when the knob dicker knows what they are doing.
Generally speaking: the down side to fully active systems is cost of equipment, space for multiple amps and the additional challenges of plumbing the system. None of those things are trivial in our trucks. But it sounds like you'll be eliminating some of those issues by your equipment choices.
IMO: there is no reason to be concerned over passive filtering "power loss". The crap people spew about that is really just internet fodder to justify a personal perspective. The advantages of a full active system are clear - and more than capable of standing on their own - without people creating an argument over power loss in passive circuits. To those who do say such things, I'll remind them: the finest audiophile systems in the world are based in passive networks. And nearly every system we hear in live performance venues are too. So PFFFT on them.
Happy Saturday
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Using raw drivers can save some money for better than average performance and
without having a very good sound processor it can get complicated, an important thing to have is output gain control either at the HU or with a laptop if using an external DSP, output gain is needed to match the levels of the woofers and tweeters in pairs first and individually after if available and properly time aligning them for a one seat positioning, this helps to center the stage better if individual EQ per channel is not available. Of course all of this means bi amping and giving up 2 channels for rear speakers unless you get a 8 ch sound processor, have a 2 way front sub using 6 channels and using the other 2 channels for rear speakers. Most actually use the 8 ch to have a 3 way front and sub, very complicated to tune and without proper drivers placement it gets even more difficult.
One simple rule commonly used, is doubling the FS of a raw driver plus some extra above it, as a starting point to set the frequency for each driver, and stay above it, and go from there. For example you may have a tweeter with specs from 2500 to 20,000 Hz, the 20,000 is easy and not the number we care about, then it may show an FS of 1700 HZ, this tells you that the manufacturer can be innacuretly telling us it can play at 2500hz since none of the numbers given is where tweeter will play well and loud, instead you double the FS and you have 3400 HZ, this would be starting point going higher and not lower not only for protection but also for playing accurately at moderate loud levels.
You can google for tweeter capacitor calculator, and easily determine the cap value for a basic -6 db slope based on impedance and target frequency based on doubling the FS for a given tweeter.
Also I would select a stepper HU or DSP HPF slope at-12 db for the tweeter if available for extra protection, if you can band pass at the given frequency then no cap would be needed for hp at 3400 HZ in the example I mentioned, instead just as a choice for DC protection from pops etc, you put a cap for the tweeters with a value just over the tweeter's FS. Pops generate DC voltages that can destroy your tweeters, or if you loose your settings, the cap will offer protection used with a DSP that lost the settings.
Then you have a gap with the woofer between 2000 and 3700 HZ with that example, since even if you can bandpass it, most 6.5" ones will start to resonate or sound bad above 2000 HZ the louder you play them. This is another long topic and as oh six said you are better off buying a brand set with passives since the passives compensate for phase issues, output levels and possible freq gaps that trying to match with cheap raw drivers gets difficult.
Unless you get to fit some 6.5 0r 5.5" SB acoustics Satoris, that play flat all the way passed 10khz.
But they are about $240 each.
The best way is to get some tweeters that play low well, but they are large and will have to be placed on the pillars or sail panels, like this one for example, you see this is an SB acoustics version for car use branded by NVX, and the specs read 800hz to over 20khz, no Fs given, it's wrong, no caps either or xovers included. This would be an actual real example.
But if you go to the link below the first one, you have the SB acoustics version with the chart showing clearly it can play at 90 db at around 1000 HZ very well, it looks good. But I take the FS and double it, having 1360 hz safe, still I would set it at 1800 hz minimum just to be safe based on how loud I would play it. I would only play this tweeter at 1500 HZ with a -24db slope or stepper, and most likely at 1800 HZ and never use a -12 db slope unless I cross it at 2200 HZ. Of course others may do things diferent or cross lower, the lower you cross them the more midrange you will have above the dash for more clarity also, if that helps, something to think about since the door drivers point above ankle level being very low.
NVX XSPTW 29mm X-Series Soft Dome Tweeters - Sonic Electronix
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...sb29rdcn-c000-4-neo-magnet-ring-dome-tweeter/
without having a very good sound processor it can get complicated, an important thing to have is output gain control either at the HU or with a laptop if using an external DSP, output gain is needed to match the levels of the woofers and tweeters in pairs first and individually after if available and properly time aligning them for a one seat positioning, this helps to center the stage better if individual EQ per channel is not available. Of course all of this means bi amping and giving up 2 channels for rear speakers unless you get a 8 ch sound processor, have a 2 way front sub using 6 channels and using the other 2 channels for rear speakers. Most actually use the 8 ch to have a 3 way front and sub, very complicated to tune and without proper drivers placement it gets even more difficult.
One simple rule commonly used, is doubling the FS of a raw driver plus some extra above it, as a starting point to set the frequency for each driver, and stay above it, and go from there. For example you may have a tweeter with specs from 2500 to 20,000 Hz, the 20,000 is easy and not the number we care about, then it may show an FS of 1700 HZ, this tells you that the manufacturer can be innacuretly telling us it can play at 2500hz since none of the numbers given is where tweeter will play well and loud, instead you double the FS and you have 3400 HZ, this would be starting point going higher and not lower not only for protection but also for playing accurately at moderate loud levels.
You can google for tweeter capacitor calculator, and easily determine the cap value for a basic -6 db slope based on impedance and target frequency based on doubling the FS for a given tweeter.
Also I would select a stepper HU or DSP HPF slope at-12 db for the tweeter if available for extra protection, if you can band pass at the given frequency then no cap would be needed for hp at 3400 HZ in the example I mentioned, instead just as a choice for DC protection from pops etc, you put a cap for the tweeters with a value just over the tweeter's FS. Pops generate DC voltages that can destroy your tweeters, or if you loose your settings, the cap will offer protection used with a DSP that lost the settings.
Then you have a gap with the woofer between 2000 and 3700 HZ with that example, since even if you can bandpass it, most 6.5" ones will start to resonate or sound bad above 2000 HZ the louder you play them. This is another long topic and as oh six said you are better off buying a brand set with passives since the passives compensate for phase issues, output levels and possible freq gaps that trying to match with cheap raw drivers gets difficult.
Unless you get to fit some 6.5 0r 5.5" SB acoustics Satoris, that play flat all the way passed 10khz.
But they are about $240 each.
The best way is to get some tweeters that play low well, but they are large and will have to be placed on the pillars or sail panels, like this one for example, you see this is an SB acoustics version for car use branded by NVX, and the specs read 800hz to over 20khz, no Fs given, it's wrong, no caps either or xovers included. This would be an actual real example.
But if you go to the link below the first one, you have the SB acoustics version with the chart showing clearly it can play at 90 db at around 1000 HZ very well, it looks good. But I take the FS and double it, having 1360 hz safe, still I would set it at 1800 hz minimum just to be safe based on how loud I would play it. I would only play this tweeter at 1500 HZ with a -24db slope or stepper, and most likely at 1800 HZ and never use a -12 db slope unless I cross it at 2200 HZ. Of course others may do things diferent or cross lower, the lower you cross them the more midrange you will have above the dash for more clarity also, if that helps, something to think about since the door drivers point above ankle level being very low.
NVX XSPTW 29mm X-Series Soft Dome Tweeters - Sonic Electronix
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...sb29rdcn-c000-4-neo-magnet-ring-dome-tweeter/
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Thanks all for help.. Now comes my decision time.. Do I purchase 5 channel for whole system, or keep my system seperate.. I've looked at PPI,Nvx,and zapco 4 channel amps which caught my eye.
The zapco for around $200.00 goes up to 3 KHZ for high pass not a BP put assume it would work..
I'm getting to the age where I wanna appreciate my music and not boom boom all time.. I'm 38, just time to mellow down since I've had my 3rd back surgery in a year 2 weeks ago.. Honest opinions will be appreciate to not spend a lot but decent SQ systen , not cheap, not expensive, just bout right for sound. I still appreciate bass drops once in awhile
The zapco for around $200.00 goes up to 3 KHZ for high pass not a BP put assume it would work..
I'm getting to the age where I wanna appreciate my music and not boom boom all time.. I'm 38, just time to mellow down since I've had my 3rd back surgery in a year 2 weeks ago.. Honest opinions will be appreciate to not spend a lot but decent SQ systen , not cheap, not expensive, just bout right for sound. I still appreciate bass drops once in awhile
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Pro/con's to consider:
Pro: a single chassis multi-channel amp accommodates "easier" wiring (especially power supply) and has the advantage of being one component to mount - which is no small consideration in the space constrained RL. A single box to mount eliminates alotta headaches when it come to space, mounting and routing/connecting power.
Con: if one component inside the amp fails, you lose all audio until its fixed. Might never happen - but - if it does, its a PITA.
You already know the limitations of built-in filtering on any amp, so there is little difference from one brand/configuration to the next. On the band pass comment, without looking deeper into what you have in mind for the final system, it will "work" is true, but there are caveats to that. I think you have a handle on things.
Hope your back is healing. That chit sucks!
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The Zapco DC series have a very powerful DSP built in, and you need a laptop to tune it.
The downside is they are big long and cost more
If music is your goal be prepared to spend more time tuning and it's better to have more tuning flexibility if you plan to bi amp and band pass for active filtering.
The newer pioneer DD X800 series offer active processing with way more options slopes, EQ etc.
The alpine Alpine CDE-W265BT also offers band pass except limited to -12 db slopes but the 9 band parametric mono EQ basically gives you the choice of 36-40 different frequencies, it's a trade between playing DVD s and more powerful EQ.
Being able to tune from the HU is beneficial, I like the alpine since it has an APP where you can save like 10 different tuning options, like front driver stage, front pass stage or both, and it only takes connecting the phone and select the tune that stores EQ, TA, HPF, LPF slopes and everything that can help and save time over writing down every EQ band setting, TA etc, and changing each setting one by one. I think the single din alpine that offers band pass is the cde 164 if that helps same as 265 and there might be another one that is only USB media player no cd but I can't remember the name, and it's cheaper.
The downside is they are big long and cost more
If music is your goal be prepared to spend more time tuning and it's better to have more tuning flexibility if you plan to bi amp and band pass for active filtering.
The newer pioneer DD X800 series offer active processing with way more options slopes, EQ etc.
The alpine Alpine CDE-W265BT also offers band pass except limited to -12 db slopes but the 9 band parametric mono EQ basically gives you the choice of 36-40 different frequencies, it's a trade between playing DVD s and more powerful EQ.
Being able to tune from the HU is beneficial, I like the alpine since it has an APP where you can save like 10 different tuning options, like front driver stage, front pass stage or both, and it only takes connecting the phone and select the tune that stores EQ, TA, HPF, LPF slopes and everything that can help and save time over writing down every EQ band setting, TA etc, and changing each setting one by one. I think the single din alpine that offers band pass is the cde 164 if that helps same as 265 and there might be another one that is only USB media player no cd but I can't remember the name, and it's cheaper.
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Now I'm bought to grab some hertz series tweeters, either 24 or 26 series. Due to fact that they come with hardware and crossover.. My plan for now is to install on sail panels.. Should they be on axis or off axis install. I'm toying around idea of a tweeter pod out of holder, threaded nipple, and nuts.. To swivel.. That will start my build
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It's hard to have everything, an HU with bandpass and larger screen, navigation higher res screen detachable screen.
I know spending $500 gives some features we may enjoy but not all, the alpine DD units start at $600 and no bandpass available, some of them are 2500 custom for some cars like Toyota etc.
I'm in the same situation, I may go for DD unit and still may choose to go with the cheaper units from pioneer that offer bandpass over a more expensive DD even if I can band pass from an external processor, I can always add navigation, Siri or other stuff besides the already built in apps like Spotify, Pandora etc.
Raw drivers, bi amping, bandpassing, just are tools that help improve sound, but if the tweeters are not placed on the best location, for stage aiming and tonality, those tools will not make miracles. Positioning is the key to great sound.
The tweeters particular sound characteristics will depend on the user's taste and positioning of the tweeters. On the dash as wide as possible will give you the best raised stage with potential to narrow it somehow and get more midrange sound or frequencies in the 2khz and up, since the door woofers will play below 2 khz, you can boost EQ between the 500- 2000 hertz for better voice stage above the dash.
Putting the tweeters on the door window sail panel, will get the stage wider with a 2 way front system, and maybe not quite get a stage above the dash, but more by the steering wheel height or below the HU.
For the ones wanting to do a 3 way front, for example, the best result is to put the "2.5-4" drivers on the pillars low and wide and the tweeters on the sail panels because most likely the tweeters will play only from 4000 hertz and up, leaving frequencies between say 800 to 4000 just for the mids and above the dash for a better stage and midrange clarity.
On axis if possible, and sometimes if the sound character of the tweeters is too bright even after EQ and level matching they may have to be placed off axis for pleasant sound but not always and ideal great stage.
Hope you guys are having a great Sunday!
I know spending $500 gives some features we may enjoy but not all, the alpine DD units start at $600 and no bandpass available, some of them are 2500 custom for some cars like Toyota etc.
I'm in the same situation, I may go for DD unit and still may choose to go with the cheaper units from pioneer that offer bandpass over a more expensive DD even if I can band pass from an external processor, I can always add navigation, Siri or other stuff besides the already built in apps like Spotify, Pandora etc.
Raw drivers, bi amping, bandpassing, just are tools that help improve sound, but if the tweeters are not placed on the best location, for stage aiming and tonality, those tools will not make miracles. Positioning is the key to great sound.
The tweeters particular sound characteristics will depend on the user's taste and positioning of the tweeters. On the dash as wide as possible will give you the best raised stage with potential to narrow it somehow and get more midrange sound or frequencies in the 2khz and up, since the door woofers will play below 2 khz, you can boost EQ between the 500- 2000 hertz for better voice stage above the dash.
Putting the tweeters on the door window sail panel, will get the stage wider with a 2 way front system, and maybe not quite get a stage above the dash, but more by the steering wheel height or below the HU.
For the ones wanting to do a 3 way front, for example, the best result is to put the "2.5-4" drivers on the pillars low and wide and the tweeters on the sail panels because most likely the tweeters will play only from 4000 hertz and up, leaving frequencies between say 800 to 4000 just for the mids and above the dash for a better stage and midrange clarity.
On axis if possible, and sometimes if the sound character of the tweeters is too bright even after EQ and level matching they may have to be placed off axis for pleasant sound but not always and ideal great stage.
Hope you guys are having a great Sunday!
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Thanks laserguy.. I might end up getting a nice component set with everything.. Then a small amp to power speakers, may look into Kenwood 3004 I believe which I can install amp behind glove box, have all my crossover right there (Plug n Play)!!
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