Please no VCM Honda

22675 Views 81 Replies 27 Participants Last post by longboat, Jan 21, 2016

retroman

Discussion Starter · Dec 5, 2015 (Edited)

Disclaimer......I do love Honda's, no wheels, two wheeled or four.

As I imagine a lot of you are doing, I have been waiting for every scrap of news about the new RL. The one thing I hope doesn't make it onto the truck is VCM.

I just recently bought a 2012 Pilot which when Googled showed no indication the problems that VCM have inflicted on most if not all Pilot owners. From oil consumption issues due to coked up oil rings, from too much gas injected into the 3 working cylinders; resulting in piston ring replacement; to replacing driveshafts and carrier bearings, to active engine mounts being ruined to the tune of hundreds, if not thousands of dollars.

My truck had its rings replaced at 51,000 kms which was only disclosed to me when the extended warranty was transferred to me upon signing the contract. I did have 120 days to do an exchange, but I found something to ease my mind.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/171813285117

I keep my vehicles for the long run and putting this device on my Pilot has made my truck work better and hopefully last longer.

I don't know how anyone could engineer a beautiful 6 cylinder engine to run on 3 cylinders and expect it to last and not vibrate itself, and everthing else around it to death.

Hopefully Honda will rethink designing a system, just for a mpg test, considering the implications further down the road in warranty costs. If not, please include an OFF button or I will have to order up another VCMuzzler.

Cheers
Tony

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speedlever

· #2 · Dec 5, 2015

Tony,

Honda sent me a survey a couple of days ago about my 2006 Pilot. I couldn't help myself and had to comment (negatively) about VCM in the current Pilot models and told them I won't buy one with VCM unless there is simply no other option.

I'm sure my comments will hit the circular file. But I had my say anyway.

DogOnBoard

· #3 · Dec 5, 2015

retroman said:
...Hopefully Honda will rethink designing a system, just for a mpg test, considering the implications further down the road in warranty costs. If not, please include an OFF button or I will have to order up another VCMuzzler...

Our good source (Joe) says the new RL gets the same VCM (v2.0) that Honda put on the 2016 Pilot -- with no "Off" button. There has been ongoing discussion whether turning off "Econ" mode reduces VCM engagement in the new Pilot, as well as some interest in using/adapting the VCMuzzler to work on the vehicle (and likely the new RL too). Last I checked on the Piloteers forum, it was not clear if Honda changed the connectors for the ECT1 sensor on the 2016 Pilot. Aside from possible premature wear issues, most new Pilot owners haven't expressed concerns about how the new-and-improved VCM is affecting the cars performance, which seems to have decreased interest overall in using the VCMuzzler on new Hondas. So I guess the jury is still out...

retroman

Discussion Starter · #4 · Dec 5, 2015 (Edited)

I see no reason to put a system into a vehicle that will save me less than $150.00 in fuel per year, but cost me possibly thousands in repairs. Seriously folks, the fuel cost of running the VCMuzzler, is at most, 1mpg or 21 miles per tank. In some conditions people have reported better mpg with the VCMuzzler.

The two Honda dealers I spoke to about replacing piston rings cylinders 1-3 and spark plugs 1-4 on my Pilot wouldn't tell me how much that peticular service would cost me out of warranty. I'm guessing, even in twenty years of driving costing me an extra $150.00 a year it still wouldn't cover the cost of that service; let alone other damage, like driveshafts and motor mounts.

They won't put an off button for the VCM as the government would require them to test it in the off position and Loren in Alberta Canada is making a pretty penny selling these VCMuzzlers.

Cheers
Tony

fraugher

· #5 · Dec 5, 2015

VCM cost me two torque converters in two different Odysseys with VCM, one under warranty fortunately but out of my hands for two days.

DogOnBoard

· #6 · Dec 5, 2015

I hear you guys. I'm not a fan of the VCM by any means. I have read from credible sources that Honda could, in fact, put a "VCM Off" switch on these vehicles and report mpg to the US EPA with "VCM On". However, the "VCM On" setting must be the default setting to which the engine returns upon each start up. This is analogous to a selectable "Sport" mode setting that delays shift points for performance purposes but is less fuel efficient. Automakers can report mpg for the "Normal" mode as long as it is the default mode. IMO, Honda chooses not to allow VCM disabling for their own green purposes and believes their "fixes" have reduced warranty claims to acceptable levels.

Retro: Do you have confirmation that the VCMuzzler will mate to the ECT1 connections on the 2016 Pilot? If so, it should work on the new RL too, and I wouldn't think $60 + shpg would be much of an obstacle for someone spending $40K on a new truck. I mean that's like less than a deluxe set of floor protectors. However, one poster here thinks Honda will figure out how to eliminate such easy tampering with the ECT1 sensor if dealership service technicians start seeing them on more vehicles (too many users forgetting to take them out before going in for service). But if the Muzzler is as benign as it seems to be -- and a growing record suggests it causes no harm -- then I don't really see why Honda would care about it.

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cccbock

· #7 · Dec 5, 2015

I am thinking that Honda will not give warranty coverage if they can determine that an aftermarket system has been used that defeats a primary operating functionality on their vehicle. And I'm also sure they will have a way to determine if the VCM has been operating normally even if one were to remove the Muzzler prior to taking the vehicle for warranty service.

And unfortunately, the few thousand people that will install a Muzzler are a small concern to Honda in the big picture. They will simply deny warranty coverage for whatever small percentage they have to deal with. They have made the calculation that pleasing the Feds, and getting that extra 1 or 2 mpg outweighs any possible warranty concerns. they have designed the system to function normally to some point well beyond the warranty coverage period. After the warranty period? Honda could care less what you do to the vehicle. It's your money.

For those few Honda buyers that understand what the VCM is actually doing and the potential effects to their vehicle it will become a simple decision, yes or no... do I buy this vehicle? If they trade vehicles within the warranty period as many do, the VCM will make no difference. The vast majority of buyers will not know the VCM is even functioning in their vehicle. The rest will be told by the dealer when they bring their vehicle in for service that the "problem" they are experiencing is "normal" or "common" and to suck it up and move on. Those of us that keep a vehicle for 200K miles may well say NO to VCM. I know I will.

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retroman

Discussion Starter · #8 · Dec 5, 2015 (Edited)

cccbock said:
I am thinking that Honda will not give warranty coverage if they can determine that an aftermarket system has been used that defeats a primary operating functionality on their vehicle. And I'm also sure they will have a way to determine if the VCM has been operating normally even if one were to remove the Muzzler prior to taking the vehicle for warranty service.

And unfortunately, the few thousand people that will install a Muzzler are a small concern to Honda in the big picture. They will simply deny warranty coverage for whatever small percentage they have to deal with. They have made the calculation that pleasing the Feds, and getting that extra 1 or 2 mpg outweighs any possible warranty concerns. they have designed the system to function normally to some point well beyond the warranty coverage period. After the warranty period? Honda could care less what you do to the vehicle. It's your money.

For those few Honda buyers that understand what the VCM is actually doing and the potential effects to their vehicle it will become a simple decision, yes or no... do I buy this vehicle? If they trade vehicles within the warranty period as many do, the VCM will make no difference. The vast majority of buyers will not know the VCM is even functioning in their vehicle. The rest will be told by the dealer when they bring their vehicle in for service that the "problem" they are experiencing is "normal" or "common" and to suck it up and move on. Those of us that keep a vehicle for 200K miles may well say NO to VCM. I know I will.

Very well stated.

I still bought the Pilot as it best fitted my families needs.

I think Honda would have to install ECT1 settings into the onboard EDR and have the EDR record for longer than the 30 seconds that it does, for Honda to know that the VCMuzzler was installed. Loren has detected no stored codes when VCMuzzler is removed but does recommend disconnecting the battery for 20 minutes a couple of days before e-testing, to generate a new vehicle emissions history.

That being said I know Honda would be informing their dealerships about what to watch for. I'm sure these forums and others are being monitored, but I don't care. If Honda denied me warranty coverage I would take them to court and ask them to prove that the VCMuzzler caused whatever damage they were refusing to cover. I would in turn show up with empirical evidence of the litany of problems VCM has caused.

It would be cheaper to pay up to the tiny amount that use the VCMuzzler as they're protecting their investment better than Honda can.

Cheers
Tony

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rollinhonda

· #9 · Dec 5, 2015 (Edited)

If you think about it, VCM was designed to help meet specific government requirements.

There is no requirement for owners to meet any mpg standard. As long as you don't permanently disable any emission or other control device I don't see the issue.
Just use common sense in whatever you do.

And maybe the less said the better (except for complaining about VCM).

cccbock

· #10 · Dec 5, 2015

rollinhonda said:
If you think about it, VCM was designed to help meet specific government requirements.

There is no requirement for owners to meet any mpg standard. As long as you don't permanently disable any emission or other control device I don't see the issue.
Just use common sense in whatever you do.

And maybe the less said the better (except for complaining about VCM).

Totally agree. But.

In the era of EPA assigning carbon as a pollutant, it would not be out of the question to assign the VCM system (which purpose is it saves fuel/carbon) to the emission system set of components. Mess with that and you may find yourself with another problem. Just ask VW.

rollinhonda

· #11 · Dec 6, 2015

How would we have the same problem as VW if we are not automakers? We can mitigate the issue by not having any mods installed during an inspection regardless of how 'emissions' is defined by some governing body.
But some things are measured in finite degrees as to the difference they make.

Many people are surprised to learn there are a few counties in the over-legislated state of California that have longer intervals between inspections. Primarily less densely populated areas of the state.

Maybe VCM is overkill, none of us really would know, but I would not be surprised if it was one of those things thrown in to pass the gauntlet of restrictions for the next few years until they can engineer something that would be less annoying.

None of this makes defeating VCM any less socially irresponsible. So letting their conscious be their guide is the only thing any owner can do. Or simply refuse to throw money down on a questionable design, probably the better but harder choice.

retroman

Discussion Starter · #12 · Dec 6, 2015 (Edited)

rollinhonda said:
None of this makes defeating VCM any less socially irresponsible.

IMHO defeating VCM is socially responsible. Think of all the emissions the factories and transportation devices put out making new components to replace the components that VCM destroys. How much energy used and emissions created to make a new driveshaft, box it, transport it to a distribution centre, then dealership and the emissions caused by melting the old driveshaft back down for something else. The TSB on the driveshaft specifically states to "discard all bolts and hardware associated with the old driveshaft. Where do they end up, but in a landfill somewhere. The really sad part is, it's not the driveshaft that's the problem but the carrier bearing on the shaft. But instead of making a driveshaft with the carrier bearing that can be replaced easily like on another vehicle I own, Honda makes the driveshaft/carrier bearing unit one piece, to save a few precious moments in assembly.

How many components ended up in the land fill or recycling bin, long before they should of from my engine overhaul; old gaskets/seals, spark plugs, piston rings, bearings, lube, coolant, one use bolts that have to be replaced.

All this to save 1 mpg, maybe?

Talk about recycling. I bought and restored a 1983 Airstream turbo diesel Classic motorhome, 30+ years old and still going, with carrier bearings that are $42.00 for the one that's sealed and easily replaced. I will probably end up in the landfill before she will.

Cheers
Tony

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speedlever

· #13 · Dec 6, 2015

rollinhonda said:
None of this makes defeating VCM any less socially irresponsible. So letting their conscious be their guide is the only thing any owner can do. Or simply refuse to throw money down on a questionable design, probably the better but harder choice.

I'm not nearly as concerned about being socially responsible as I am about being fiscally responsible.

Dnick

· #14 · Dec 6, 2015

I'm hoping that "being socially responsible" comment by Rollin was just a passing thought that slipped in. No offence intended.

We could talk all night about one person's view of social responsibility vs. another. You could make the case for restricting yourself to a certain size vehicle 'cause you really don't "need" something that uses that much fuel. You could make the case that you shouldn't buy a new vehicle until the one you have crumbles to the ground (conservation). There's an endless stream of judgments we could make about what one should or shouldn't do.

We all have our own lives to live in this used-to-be free country, & doing the best we can is hard enough w/o worrying if the next guy is carrying his load, especially in areas like this that are so subjective. I know I'm on a soap box, but the tendency in this country to pressure others to a "socially correct" path has just gotten out of control. I'm just sayin'...

rollinhonda

· #15 · Dec 6, 2015

I thought my comment came across as more sarcastic ... I guess I did not know my audience... tough crowd!!!
Seriously, I have run across some who are very adamant about such issues. I would think you would know by now I don't take things that seriously.
I do think in terms of a Honda design in particular, that VCM is poor substitute for better engineering. Just look at all the modern V6's that do not use VCM. I expected more out of Honda.

But let's all lighten up a little, things are not that bad. And there are always other options.

retroman

Discussion Starter · #16 · Dec 6, 2015 (Edited)

rollinhonda said:
I thought my comment came across as more sarcastic ... I guess I did not know my audience... tough crowd!!!
Seriously, I have run across some who are very adamant about such issues. I would think you would know by now I don't take things that seriously.
I do think in terms of a Honda design in particular, that VCM is poor substitute for better engineering. Just look at all the modern V6's that do not use VCM. I expected more out of Honda.

But let's all lighten up a little, things are not that bad. And there are always other options.

Sorry, my bad for not catching the sarcastic tone in your post. As you see I always end my posts with "Cheers".

I'm just hoping against all hope that Honda with its incredible ability to engineer magic, will as you stated, come up with a better solution than running an engine on three cylinders for the next Ridgeline, as it's difficult promoting your company with Earth Dreams motors, if the motor causes more damage to the Earth in the long run.:act030:

If we don't speak up, we loose our say.

Cheers
Tony

runsondiesel

· #17 · Dec 6, 2015

Dnick said:
... the tendency in this country to pressure others to a "socially correct" path has just gotten out of control. I'm just sayin'...

Agree. "Live and let live" is a forgotten concept.

cccbock

· #18 · Dec 6, 2015

Fortunately, nobody can force me to buy VCM. At least not yet. Honda may choose to implement it in the RL, and they will lose a few customers I guess. I don't think they are going to lose sleep over it.:act024:

speedlever

· #19 · Dec 6, 2015

Recently my wife said someone at her work asked if we would recommend getting a Pilot. I told her that based on our experience, I'd absolutely recommend a Pilot. But not a new one with VCM. I got that Venus/Mars look about that point so decided not to elaborate. She just wants to twist the key and go. But I have to fix 'em and maintain 'em.

breye

· #20 · Dec 6, 2015

When I was shopping for a new vehicle back in 2009.I wouldn't even consider the Honda Pilot just because it had VCM. I would rather put more gas in then have a vehicle with VCM.

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