One thought I've been asking myself if I would ever consider trading mine for a new one. Basically maybe, but a pre-condition on the deal would be that the dealer must drop the gas tank and fully seal that forward seam & along the adjoining upper frame brackets using a factory approved seam sealer before taking delivery. If they are not willing or start squirming about warranty coverages, I would walk away. Personally convinced this is a critical flaw and likely dealership technicians are fooled/distracted by the main pinch seam with the factory sealer being the problem. Yes, this unsealed seam is not the only possible leak source but this one is so simple to resolve ahead of time.
Posts by RogersRTS
41 - 60 of 75 Posts
I would be skeptical, and that's coming from someone who has taken the beast apart looking for leaks. There are possible leak locations (such as the fuel pump access cover) that can be sealed from inside. However they should be able to identify that leak source for you, and have also addressed the possibility of multiple leak sources.
Would add that this type of leak will originate closer to where the rear seatbelts and rear seat frame bolts to the floor. My last leak episode was wet on the vertical padding, but relatively dry on the horizontal floor padding. Also the carpet can feel bone dry while the underpad is wet. So your likely best path is the 2 plastic panels covering the seat frame bolts, not via the door thresholds.
A number of years back, had worked for a manufacturer of commercial vehicles. Warranty was funded from a reserve fund and sensed there was some form of second layer insurance purchased. However, that was typically for smaller events like component failures with known and relatively fixed/limited labor expense, and the failed component was in turn replaced by the supplier (which presumed had similar reserves). As a customer of that same manufacturer, when I had a warranty event would call for a pre-authorization. A case was opened and parts would then be shipped. After the repair, would return the failed part with a bill for the labor (which the shop rate was pre-negotiated). The part would be verified that it had belonged to the VIN (or at least correct for the VIN) and was sent a reimbursement check for labor. TSB's were handled similarly... UPS guy would show up with a box of parts and printed instructions on how to do it. Then complete the task and return the old parts with signed paperwork that the TSB was performed, afterwards received reimbursement for the labor.
This water intrusion concern is fundamentally different in that it lacks a failed component and the actual labor is a huge unknown. Where I believe Honda is failing is by not issuing some form of service bulletin with step-by-step instructions to standardize the troubleshooting process. Defining the process would quantify a known/fixed value on the labor involved and also ensure consistent repairs between customers (essentially QA process/inspection after-the-fact).
My own RL is currently at the dealer for this problem, which presume by now is disassembled and inspected by representatives being sent in from Honda (or that was the plan). The major hold-up was being too old to still be covered under the basic factory warranty. So who is paying the bill??? The cost of repairs are potentially so high that the dealership's service dept could not provide an estimate in good faith. They were also up-front that they didn't want to touch this problem because Honda burned them severely on the warranty labor reimbursement on their previous case. In my case, the truck is now being inspected/repaired only after some leveraging via contacting the owner of the dealership and Honda.
Oh yeah, reminded them of that same concern about being invested in a product that is not meeting quality expectations from past experiences, and that situations such as this have intrinsic properties which transcend a written warranty. Thus far they seem to be listening and making a good faith effort to make this right.
Yes, got back from a 3700 mile road trip where I drove though the rainstorm from Hell in eastern Kansas and Missouri. That rain event was like 50 mph max speed for 90 minutes with cars stopped on the shoulder and under bridges. Afterwards there was some moisture in the carpet pad on the vertical wall. Was much drier than before but still leaking somewhere. So basically a couple likely intrusion point to check now:
1). Still think the access cover to the fuel pump leaks some, has a flimsy foam seal that in my opinion looks pretty much useless. Had resisted the temptation to glue that down with silicone RTV form-a-gasket. In hindsight should likely have done it, rear seat has to come out to gain access to that cover.
2). Some unknown point higher up on the rear cab wall. In discussions when dropping off the truck, the dealership service people and Honda's regional rep seem hyper-focused on the rear window installation seal for some reason.
Further troubleshooting requires disassembling the bed panels and removing all the shrouds surrounding the rear window. So now into a labor-intensive activity with disassembling the bed and leak testing. Not sure yet what will be done about the carpet. Had throughly soaked the padding with anti-bacterial disinfectant cleaners and dried that out. Now when it gets wet, the odor is that of soap (like a freshly mopped floor), no longer swamp odor. Think I could live with soapy odors as long as the leaks are fixed, and not press them to gut the interior to replace the carpets.
Probably should add that while in the rain storm the bed was covered by a soft tri-fold tonneau cover and completely dry inside. The only moisture to challenge the rear wall either came from above the tonneau-level, or draft/splash from underneath. There would have not been any drainage coming from the lower forward bed drains directly onto the pinch-welded cross seam. The only odd variable is that I purchased a set of used wheel & tires in Denver for my Nissan Leaf. Those were stacked in pairs side-by-side in the forward 1/2 of the bed and X-strapped to the forward sidewall tie-downs with ratchet straps. That put some clamping stress against the forward headboard and rear wall under the rear window. That was all under the tonneau cover and bone dry, certainly hope that strap tension wouldn't distort anything to the point of leaking.
The 2nd business week with my truck at the dealership for diagnosis and repair is coming to a close. Their tech called me a few days ago to discuss that it leaked significantly with Honda's reps watching, and the general consensus it's from points higher on the truck body and likely the passenger side based on the water flow patterns observed inside. His own hunch (and speculative/unconfirmed) are from sealed body seams that are concealed behind the headboard of the bed and/or the seal on the lower lip of the rear window. The fact that it's an RTS (so no moonroof drains, no sliding rear window, no wire harnesses to bed accessories) helps narrow the suspect entry points.
My truck was completed and returned to me today (3 weeks start to finish). The leak was isolated to a passenger side welded seam at the junction where the bed's upper unibody frame attaches to the corner of the cab near the lower corner of the rear window. The upper bed panels/fenders hang from those frame members. A joint wasn't sealed correctly. The entire bed was disassembled completely to the bare unibody frame to access the area for inspection and repair, the only panel left in place was the bed floor/trunk. It was also the exact location of the leak on the '19 that they repaired just prior to mine.
I'm leaving mine parked outside in the rain for a few days. It was raining torrents yesterday when I picked it up from the dealer. I might reinstall the tonneau cover (soft Trifecta) later today so the drainage is forced higher on the back wall through the upper drain slots on the headboard. I was also told some of that water drainage originates from the roof, then drains down behind the rear window side trim and behind the exterior plastic & sheet metal to the rear wall and over the leaking body seam (and over the rear window seal which is also a potential leakage point).
Not certain how Honda and the dealership worked out the expenses, there was no charge to me.
That screw is likely from installing the bass speaker box behind the seat. They are recessed and easy to drop.
Also, your question concerning taking this to the selling dealer vs. closest/preferred service-oriented dealer. This type of repair has the potential to become a huge, out-of-control labor bill that Honda Corp. reimburses the servicing dealer at very low amounts. That makes dealer service departments very hesitant to get involved or get a non-systematic approach to locating & fixing leaks. Having gone through this, I would recommend first calling Honda Customer support in Calif. to open a claims case. The closest or most convenient dealership is not necessarily where your want this fixed. Recommend approaching the most reputable dealership's Service Manager so they can make reimbursement pre-arrangements with Honda. In addition, be prepared to cough up your truck for several weeks and thus arrange for loaner if necessary.
I'm going to throw an additional spot found on mine and another customer's '19. That was chasing the dealer's theory that having a tonneau cover increases the likelihood of water getting inside the cab as it increases the amount of water into the upper headboard drains. The leak location is somewhere in the yellow circle, between the fender sheetmetal and the outboard side of the unibody truss where it joins the cab corner. The outside fenders must be removed to access the spot (major labor bill). That's in addition to Celltech's markup of lower seam leaks. Mine was completely dry after being left outside all week in heavy rains.
![Vehicle Automotive lighting Motor vehicle Hood Car]()
The cardboard is a great idea. Based on my own experience with this problem, likely get a different perspective and earlier indicator if a piece of cardboard is inserted from the top. Believe it or not, I found the carpet backing foam can be damp on the vertical wall and still dry in the floor portion. Please see my markup of one of your photos
Yep, adding more welding is not a good solution. As Celltech noted, use an automotive seam sealer and lots of it. I choose to use a butyl adhesive plastic flashing tape that was designed for installing home windows. Pick a premium tape rated for very low temperatures. I choose to use tape because it can be installed without dropping the fuel tank.
Yes, it's important to take the time to wash the surfaces. Those underbody photos in this thread are from my truck. Mine was thoroughly drenched while water testing seams. Then, used spray bottles (detergent water, clean water rinse, and rubbing alcohol) & wiping rags to prep the surfaces before applying tape. However, mine is a low mileage '17 that lives a pampered life and was relatively clean underneath beforehand with minimal corrosion on those seams.
My experience it will take 3 weeks. It just takes that long to run through the sequence of soak & dry-out, then seal what they find, then repeat until they can't find any more leaks. That's after a significant amount of disassembly (was told an entire workday) and then reassembly likely takes the same or longer.
The one piece of advice I would leave anyone experiencing this problem is to please stay civil no matter how pissed off you might feel about the problem. Honda and my dealership made good on mine after the warranty expired, give them a reasonable chance to fix yours.
I would not be surprised if your dealer in Columbus has the same Honda factory rep that handled mine in Akron. If so, they are very familiar with the problem and how to fix it. On the wet carpet, I attempted to dry the carpet by blotting with bath towels underneath the carpet to keep the swamp odor to a minimum. Most likely with a brand new truck they will replace the carpet.
Yes, that's the drill. There are multiple points for leaks to occur that need checked independently. That needs done repeatedly due to the multiple pathways that water can flow once it leaks inside.
Yep, you are on the right path and leads to the big open-ended labor bill nobody wants to see. In your bedside photo, the actual leak site is likely in the upper support frame directly behind where the water is seen streaming down the fender. It's major surgery. They will disassemble the entire back 1/2 of the truck to the unibody frame (bed walls, bumper, inner & outer fenders, and rear window surrounds) to access the leaky seam. More than likely the Service Manager needs to contact Honda to arrange pre-authorization due to the labor costs.
The leak can be either side (or both) and water can exit either rear floor area due to the design of the rear seat forward support. That support crosses the entire back seat area with foam plugs in each end, which effectively acts as a distribution tube. The only way I could find multiple locations was to start soaking low on the truck bed (hose in the bed near forward bed drain holes) to isolate potential leak zones. Find & fix those first, then work upwards on the cab wall.
Coming from someone who has been through the multiple points of leaking, make sure they systematically worked through all the possible sources. The cheap way out for a dealership is to smear al little sealer on top of common points and call it done. You have a fully warrantied vehicle, hold them to their workmanship. Call me nuts, but the hidden leak that nobody at Honda will acknowledge is the forward seam that doesn’t get any sealer at the factory. Please look backwards in this thread to find where mine is taped (white flashing tape). Wish you the best of luck resolving the problem.
41 - 60 of 75 Posts
