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Discussion Starter #1
I have to rant a bit after yesterday in some heavy snow. The RL performed quite poorly! Between the miserable tires (at 25K miles), clearance, and lack of being able to turn the SC/TC completely off with a simple one touch button.. We were stuck in the middle of the road just pulling out of our driveway.. Hung up. Other 4x4s (more clearance) were faring much better... Including an old S10 Chevy I later went by. Clearance and tires were the issue, but not being able to defeat the TC was the reason we got hung up. Ridiculous! After a few neighbors came and got us going, the truck struggle mightily to get down the road in 13-14 inches of snow on it due to the power being continually reduced to the wheels. I was able to easily turn the SC/TC off in the G1 truck. You need to be able to have the ability to put the coals to it in heavy snow. How could any engineer ever think that not to be?
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I was becoming increasingly concerned the last month or so about steering and stopping issues compared to our 300 AWD. The RL is much worse! Because we leave in early January, I've resisted buying a wheel / snow tire package, but no more. A package will be here Wednesday even if it will only get 2.5 months use. All this snow came in 2 shots. About 20" of very heavy stuff last Wednesday which I didn't even try to get out in (no plows till the following day) and 12-14" yesterday. It wasn't as heavy, but more than enough to hang the RL up given the TC and tire issues. The plow came at 6:15 This morning. This pic was 7:30 AM after I mopped it up.
 

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...did you put it in snow mode? That immediately Alters VSA. As for your 25k tires which I am assuming are the factory Firestone Destination LE2’s perhaps you are expecting too much from an all season tire. My buddy had a 2014 Subaru Outback before he switched to an RL after seeing my 2019 BE and they outperform the outback any day of the week.

If you are looking for a 100% disabling of VSA @zroger73 posted in another thread about how to do that and I will post his instructions here,

1. After starting the vehicle, press and hold the brake pedal.
2. Hold the VSA button until the VSA light comes on.
3. Hold the VSA button until the VSA light turns off.
4. Release the brake pedal.
5. Apply the parking brake.
6. Hold the VSA button until the VSA light comes on.
7. Hold the VSA button until the VSA light turns off.
8. Hold the brake pedal while the parking brake is still on.
9. Hold the VSA button until the VSA light comes on.
10. Hold the VSA button until the VSA light lights stays on and the VSA OFF light flashes.

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Discussion Starter #3
I did put it in snow mode. Maybe something wasn't working right?

I did see the zroger info last night. Thanks for reposting it. Shouldn't have to jump through hoops like that

I have the same mileage on the 300 all season tires. No comparison. The LE2s can't hold a candle to the Michelin Primacy tires. The G1 LTX tires were better than the LEs, but I bought snow tires for that one too at 34K miles.
 

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I agree that is a lot of steps however, Honda doesn’t really expect users to be completely disabling the system. I have had very few instances where VSA has kicked in while on snow or mud and they have been when I was intentionally trying to break traction. The drive modes don’t turn the systems off in every instance so perhaps you were just spinning tires too much and the VSA kicked in. Just out of curiosity what winter tires did you order?


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Wow, @Steve70. Remind me where you live so I won't ever move there. ;)

The older I get, the less I like cold weather!

And 10 steps to disable VSA? WTH? These computerized vehicles are getting too smart for me. (but don't tell my wife I said that).
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I've been driving in heavy snow country for over 50 years and have been in this sort of snow more times than I count. Once the tires spun uselessly when I backed out of the driveway, it was hung up. A shovel is the only answer for that. But even we got it loosened up a bit, it still wanted to cut power

With one exception, I've been a Blizzak guy since 1994. This time however I'm going to try the Continental Viking Contact 7s
 

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My birthday is in December and when I turned 16, we lived in the mid-west (KC area... go Chiefs!). I drove a VW beetle bug around in snow that would cancel school for a week where I live now. But then again, they cancel school on a forecast, never mind nothing rarely comes of it. ;)
 

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We had a series of bugs. I drove one pretty regularly in some deeper snow conditions. Once you had it packed to the undercarriage it was done! Only way out was a tow! lol Did that more than once! But with snows boy that thing would go ! Just not like 4wd! (The 64' Landrover was better till it would get frame packed and highsided too ! Had that one stuck a couple of times. It was even more of a problem to get out!)

Steve
 

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I've been driving in heavy snow country for over 50 years and have been in this sort of snow more times than I count. Once the tires spun uselessly when I backed out of the driveway, it was hung up. A shovel is the only answer for that. But even we got it loosened up a bit, it still wanted to cut power...
I assume you tried all the modes. I thought SAND mode locked the rear diff and dials back the VSA to allow more wheel spin. Then there was something else posted awhile ago about an "unstruck" procedure...I think it's also in the detailed owners manual. But the RL's low ground clearance is a deal-breaker in deep snow.
 

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My birthday is in December and when I turned 16, we lived in the mid-west (KC area... go Chiefs!). I drove a VW beetle bug around in snow that would cancel school for a week where I live now. But then again, they cancel school on a forecast, never mind nothing rarely comes of it. ;)
We had a series of bugs. I drove one pretty regularly in some deeper snow conditions. Once you had it packed to the undercarriage it was done! Only way out was a tow! lol Did that more than once! But with snows boy that thing would go ! Just not like 4wd! (The 64' Landrover was better till it would get frame packed and highsided too ! Had that one stuck a couple of times. It was even more of a problem to get out!)

Steve
When I was first married in 73, we had a 71 Bug convertible. I put studded winter tires on it in the winter. As noted above, it went well until it was hung up. Given the low clearance to start with, hanging up a VW was NOT a good thing! I also used it to bird hunt in the fall. Many times on really muddy roads. Straddling the 2 track roads from the middle to one side or the other worked very well. Went a lot of places some big trucks couldn't have gone without lots of damage to their sides. Rocks didn't agree with the exhaust however and JC Whitney supplied 3 or 4 of them while we had that car. Put 100K miles on it.

I assume you tried all the modes. I thought SAND mode locked the rear diff and dials back the VSA to allow more wheel spin. Then there was something else posted awhile ago about an "unstruck" procedure...I think it's also in the detailed owners manual. But the RL's low ground clearance is a deal-breaker in deep snow.

No, I plead guilty to not trying the sand mode. I did read something about this in the RL CD I have earlier today. I've now printed the pages referring to this from the CD. I guess I would of had to be in the sand mode before ever backing out. The tires though were absolutely a big part of the problem. I'm going to experiment a little with the sand mode and the VSA button more. At least enough to know what's possible with each. I still say you should have the ability to defeat the system completely (and easily). Anyone who lives in heavy snow country I'm guessing would agree. We've had 50+ inches to date. Last year when we left on 1/4/19...we had 100 inches. More than many see in a year.

We didn't have to go anywhere yesterday. Could of stayed home, but opted to go the mile to a friend's house for the Packer game :) I was actually surprised it got stuck so easily yesterday. If the snow was lighter, we would have made it. The truck is my wife's daily driver and I worry more about the steering and stopping part for her, given our car works so much better with the Michelins. Yesterday was just the straw that pushed me back to the snow tire. Safety first. I'm calming down now after talking it out 😊 Operator error, or lack of knowing what at least to try, is also a factor I now see.
 

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...did you put it in snow mode? That immediately disables the TCS.
Snow mode on AWD models decreases throttle response and increases rear wheel bias. There is no effect on the transmission*, torque vectoring, stability control, or traction control. *On FWD models, the transmission will start in second gear.

Turning VSA "off" (Stuck Vehicle Assist mode) makes traction control and stability control less effective, but does not completely disable those functions.

VSA can be turned "off" in Normal or Snow modes, but not Sand or Mud modes because those two modes rely on increased VSA functionality.
 

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Snow mode on AWD models decreases throttle response and increases rear wheel bias. There is no effect on the transmission*, torque vectoring, stability control, or traction control. *On FWD models, the transmission will start in second gear.

Turning VSA "off" (Stuck Vehicle Assist mode) makes traction control and stability control less effective, but does not completely disable those functions.

VSA can be turned "off" in Normal or Snow modes, but not Sand or Mud modes because those two modes rely on increased VSA functionality.
I was referring to VSA not TCS, the engine output reduction of the VSA system is what snow and sand mode reduce. Are you saying sand mode does not reduce the VSA because when you activate the sand mode the VSA reduced light illuminates?


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Yesterday was just the straw that pushed me back to the snow tire.
I had a similar experience in my impreza and all season tires. I couldn't believe I was stuck in a driveway with a subaru. Next day bought some winterforce and that thing was unstoppable.

I was driving around in the snow last night and thought the RL performed great, no slippage or control issues. I really expected the awd system to be similar to i-awd (no driveshaft) in the wifes Rav4 Hybrid, where I would get a bit of front wheel slippage before the rear kicks in, but that wasn't the case at all. It barreled right along.

I personally didn't like snow mode, so just used normal mode. In my experiences, winter tires make all the difference.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I had a similar experience in my impreza and all season tires. I couldn't believe I was stuck in a driveway with a subaru. Next day bought some winterforce and that thing was unstoppable.

I was driving around in the snow last night and thought the RL performed great, no slippage or control issues. I really expected the awd system to be similar to i-awd (no driveshaft) in the wifes Rav4 Hybrid, where I would get a bit of front wheel slippage before the rear kicks in, but that wasn't the case at all. It barreled right along.

I personally didn't like snow mode, so just used normal mode. In my experiences, winter tires make all the difference.
Yes, I think tires and clearance have more to do with going in deep snow than the AWD / 4X4 system. If tires and clearance are equal, then one can debate who's system is better.
 

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I was referring to VSA not TCS, the engine output reduction of the VSA system is what snow and sand mode reduce. Are you saying sand mode does not reduce the VSA because when you activate the sand mode the VSA reduced light illuminates?


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Isn't TCS traction control system.... = VSA vehicle stability assist system. Aren't they the same thing?
 

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Isn't TCS traction control system.... = VSA vehicle stability assist system. Aren't they the same thing?

TCS responds to a spinning wheel and brakes that wheel so the transaxle gives more traction to the wheel with grip. In VSA, there is a sensor that uses computer algorithms to assess the current state of the vehicle: Speed, steering angle, direction, yaw. It works at all speeds and can alter vehicle dynamics to help maintain directional stability. VSA takes places of TCS in the sense that it is a much more sophisticated system that can accomplish the same thing as TCS and much more


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I was referring to VSA not TCS, the engine output reduction of the VSA system is what snow and sand mode reduce. Are you saying sand mode does not reduce the VSA because when you activate the sand mode the VSA reduced light illuminates?


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You said, "...did you put it in snow mode? That immediately disables the TCS." TSC stands for "Traction Control System". "Traction control" is one of the two functions of VSA (Vehicle Stability Assist) - the other being "stability control". "Traction control" brakes a spinning front wheel to try and transfer driving torque to the other front wheel and reduce engine power if that's not effective at keeping the wheels from spinning out of a control and exploding a tire or differential. "Stability control" selectively applies individual brakes to keep the vehicle on its intended path. Traction control works when accelerating. Stability control works when accelerating, cruising, or decelerating.

VSA (Vehicle Stability Assist) is nothing more than Honda's marketing term for the traction control and stability control functions.

A couple of other brake-related functions include Agile Handling Assist which brakes the inside wheels when turning to help create a yaw moment and Trailer Sway Control which attempts to counter oscillations by alternately applying the brakes between sides.

Honda says that Mud and Sand modes "increase VSA".
 

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TCS responds to a spinning wheel and brakes that wheel so the transaxle gives more traction to the wheel with grip. In VSA, there is a sensor that uses computer algorithms to assess the current state of the vehicle: Speed, steering angle, direction, yaw. It works at all speeds and can alter vehicle dynamics to help maintain directional stability. VSA takes places of TCS in the sense that it is a much more sophisticated system that can accomplish the same thing as TCS and much more


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Is that (TCS) something in the G2 Ridge? My G1 Ridge only has VSA and functions just like your description of TCS whereby it brakes a spinning wheel to transfer power to the opposite side. Of course that only works on the front wheels since the rear wheels are independently driven by the VTM-4 system and there's no way for left-right power transfer by braking the spinning wheel... or none that I know of... or recall.
 

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Is that (TCS) something in the G2 Ridge? My G1 Ridge only has VSA and functions just like your description of TCS whereby it brakes a spinning wheel to transfer power to the opposite side. Of course that only works on the front wheels since the rear wheels are independently driven byt the VTM-4 system and there's no way for left-right power transfer by braking the spinning wheel... or none that I know of... or recall.
So, that is something that I am unsure of to be 100% but I want to say the G2 has VSA and no TCS. My buddies Outback had TCS and I was not so much a fan. Of the brake hold system. Just didn’t seem to accomplish much with me in the snow w/ all seasons.


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Discussion Starter #20
Wow, @Steve70. Remind me where you live so I won't ever move there. ;)

The older I get, the less I like cold weather!

And 10 steps to disable VSA? WTH? These computerized vehicles are getting too smart for me. (but don't tell my wife I said that).
Central UP of Michigan. It is a nice place to visit speed :)

I worked outside a lot in my day. I don't like the cold anymore either! Even less now that we bail for most of the winter

Just give me one button to make it go away when I want...like deep heavy snow. There is certainly much merit to SC/TC systems, but in heavy snow with the G1, I always disabled it. Especially on non highway unplowed roads
 
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