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Discussion Starter #1
When the 2020's came out, I was a bit bummed because it didn't get the upgraded infotainment system that's on the Odyssey and Pilot. I am bummed no more! I found out that my son's 2019 Odyssey has had monumental problems with its infotainment system for the past 6 months, and it apparently had a massive meltdown during a 10 hour drive today. While driving, his system was continually rebooting, with no way to stop it. At one point it shut off and took out the whole display - speedometer and all. He's going to seek legal advice and see if he can use the lemon law to get out of it.
 

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The new Odyssey has been plagued with electronics issues. Especially with the head unit.

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Why not let Honda fix it? I had major problems with my 2018 Odyssey system but Honda eventually fixed it with a revised $1k+ part that they replaced free under warranty.
 

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Here's Georgia's lemon law:


The meat of it is that the defect will have to "substantially impair the use, value or safety" of the vehicle and a "reasonable number of repair attempts" have to be made before the vehicle qualifies for a buyback.

Neither an infotainment system or a speedometer (except on buses and "18-wheelers") are required safety devices.

 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited by Moderator)
The Lemon Law will require Honda is given an opportunity to fix the system.
They’ve tried to fix it repeatedly and failed!

Here's Georgia's lemon law:


The meat of it is that the defect will have to "substantially impair the use, value or safety" of the vehicle and a "reasonable number of repair attempts" have to be made before the vehicle qualifies for a buyback.

Neither an infotainment system or a speedometer (except on buses and "18-wheelers") are required safety devices.

Well, he lives in Tennessee, but I assume that the law is about the same. I have a hard time believing that a speedometer - in fact the whole dashboard - going dark, would not be considered a safety issue. That boggles the mind. I didn’t see that explicitly stated in the law. Is it an assumption because it’s not spelled out what constitutes a required safety device? I would have assumed that a car could not be considered road legal without a speedometer.
 

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Well, he lives in Tennessee, but I assume that the law is about the same. I have a hard time believing that a speedometer - in fact the whole dashboard - going dark, would not be considered a safety issue. That boggles the mind. I didn’t see that explicitly stated in the law. Is it an assumption because it’s not spelled out what constitutes a required safety device? I would have assumed that a car could not be considered road legal without a speedometer.
"If you purchased a new vehicle, or a vehicle that is still under the manufacturer’s warranty, and that vehicle has a defect or condition that makes it unreliable or is unsafe for normal operation, and the manufacturer or dealer cannot repair the vehicle after three attempts or the vehicle is out of service for repairs for a total of 30 or more days, you may be entitled to return the vehicle and receive a refund of the full purchase price. Prior to receiving a refund under the Lemon Law, you must notify the manufacturer of the problem in writing by certified mail. Lawsuits must be brought within six months of: one year from the date of original delivery of your car or from the expiration of your expressed warranty, whichever is later."


Certain indicators or warning lights are required by Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (such as an "air bag warning light") or the Environmental Protection Agency (such as a "check engine light"). While vehicle operators are required to obey speed limits, the vehicles they operate aren't required to have speedometers, fuel gauges, tachometers, temperature gauges, etc - those are convenience items.

If you live in an area that performs safety inspections, note that a working speedometer is not an inspection item. Safety devices such as horns, headlights, turn signals, brake lights, tail lights, and tires are. The police officer doesn't care if your speedometer is working - he cares if you're speeding. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #8
"If you purchased a new vehicle, or a vehicle that is still under the manufacturer’s warranty, and that vehicle has a defect or condition that makes it unreliable or is unsafe for normal operation, and the manufacturer or dealer cannot repair the vehicle after three attempts or the vehicle is out of service for repairs for a total of 30 or more days, you may be entitled to return the vehicle and receive a refund of the full purchase price. Prior to receiving a refund under the Lemon Law, you must notify the manufacturer of the problem in writing by certified mail. Lawsuits must be brought within six months of: one year from the date of original delivery of your car or from the expiration of your expressed warranty, whichever is later."


Certain indicators or warning lights are required by Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (such as an "air bag warning light") or the Environmental Protection Agency (such as a "check engine light"). While vehicle operators are required to obey speed limits, the vehicles they operate aren't required to have speedometers, fuel gauges, tachometers, temperature gauges, etc - those are convenience items.

If you live in an area that performs safety inspections, note that a working speedometer is not an inspection item. Safety devices such as horns, headlights, turn signals, brake lights, tail lights, and tires are.
Zroger73, thanks for the information, which I’ll forward to my son.
That said, it seems odd that we are legally required to drive a safe speed, but there is no legal requirement to have a means of determining speed? Seems like a shocking omission! “Sorry for going 20 miles over the speed limit, Officer! My spidey-sense told me that I was going 65 mph!”
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Certain indicators or warning lights are required by Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (such as an "air bag warning light") or the Environmental Protection Agency (such as a "check engine light"). While vehicle operators are required to obey speed limits, the vehicles they operate aren't required to have speedometers, fuel gauges, tachometers, temperature gauges, etc - those are convenience items.
After re-reading the above, I think that he would be covered. It was not only the speedometer that wasn't working, but the whole dashboard went dark. So, even the required indicators and warning lights were gone IN ADDITION TO the speedometer, infotainment, etc. He is going to drop off the car to Honda to attempt repair again, but judging from the previous visits, he's not holding up much hope. Fortunately, he has my old Ford Escape, which I sold to him for his daughter when I bought my 2020 RL.
 

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Zroger73, thanks for the information, which I’ll forward to my son.
That said, it seems odd that we are legally required to drive a safe speed, but there is no legal requirement to have a means of determining speed? Seems like a shocking omission! “Sorry for going 20 miles over the speed limit, Officer! My spidey-sense told me that I was going 65 mph!”
"Each bus, truck, and truck-tractor must be equipped with a speedometer indicating vehicle speed in miles per hour and/or kilometers per hour. The speedometer must be accurate to within plus or minus 8 km/hr (5 mph) at a speed of 80 km/hr (50 mph)."


"The rules in this part establish minimum standards for commercial motor vehicles as defined in §390.5 of this title."


There are no speedometer requirements for non-commercial motor vehicles. I was very surprised by this as well when I researched it a few years ago while settling a debate about speedometer requirements on another forum.

After re-reading the above, I think that he would be covered. It was not only the speedometer that wasn't working, but the whole dashboard went dark. So, even the required indicators and warning lights were gone IN ADDITION TO the speedometer, infotainment, etc. He is going to drop off the car to Honda to attempt repair again, but judging from the previous visits, he's not holding up much hope. Fortunately, he has my old Ford Escape, which I sold to him for his daughter when I bought my 2020 RL.
Note that the Odyssey has both a color display and a row of dedicated warning lights. The color display is used for non-required information. Required warnings such as for the stability control, tire pressure, check engine, seat belts, air bags, anti-lock brakes, and air bags use the dedicated warning lights. That way, if the color display and/or backlighting fails, the required warning(s) can still display if there is a problem with one of those systems.

399015

I'm not saying its impossible to "lemon law" the vehicle, but I'm preparing you for the manufacturer's defense. Buybacks can take a lot of time and patience. Sometimes, it's better to dump the vehicle for something else (and hope it doesn't have equal or worse problems).
 

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Dash display and infotainment head unit seem to be confusingly intermingled in this thread. Many of us expected the 2020 RL to get the 2019 Pilot's dash and head unit, not the Odyssey's dash. But problems with the new Pilot's infotainment system may have been one reason why Honda chose not to migrate it over to the 2020 RL. BTW, reliability issues with the 2019 Odyssey electronics (IS included) resulted in Consumer Reports dropping it from their "Recommended" vehicle list. Ouch!
 

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Lack of speedometer seems like a legal issue. Were he to be ticketed, Honda would be legally liable, it sure feels like.

How can OP know he's driving a safe speed?

That IS a safety issue.
 

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Lack of speedometer seems like a legal issue. Were he to be ticketed, Honda would be legally liable, it sure feels like.

How can OP know he's driving a safe speed?

That IS a safety issue.
This, and many of the tangential 'no speedometer, no whatever' posts in this thread, seem to miss a basic common-sense tenet (which I strongly suspect has significant bearing in law):

If a driver observes there's a breakdown / defect / failure of any part of a vehicle which precludes that driver being able to operate the vehicle safely / within the law, it's that driver's responsibility to promptly pull-over and park. It makes no difference whether or not that particular part is specifically required by a law or regulation.

IMO
 

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This, and many of the tangential 'no speedometer, no whatever' posts in this thread, seem to miss a basic common-sense tenet (which I strongly suspect has significant bearing in law):

If a driver observes there's a breakdown / defect / failure of any part of a vehicle which precludes that driver being able to operate the vehicle safely / within the law, it's that driver's responsibility to promptly pull-over and park. It makes no difference whether or not that particular part is specifically required by a law or regulation.

IMO
It's also Honda's responsibility to provide him with a safe vehicle that ALLOWS that, since he spent tens of thousands of dollars on something that they advertised DOES that.

With all due respect, giving Honda unlimited chances is quite unreasonable. I didn't say he should just call it quits, but at some point the line has to be drawn. Lemon law or not, if they sold him something defective and they are unable to fix it, then he should be entitled to a refund or a replacement that DOES work.

That TOO....is common sense, wouldnt you say? That seems VERY reasonable.
 

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@nickmv, my comment about driver responsibility was in direct response to your suggestion "Were he to be ticketed, Honda would be legally liable, it sure feels like" (the content of the post I quoted, the context of my comment). That relates specifically to the driver's election to operate the vehicle knowing it has a defect. IMO it's not sensible to make Honda liable for consequence of that election on the drivers' part to operate the vehicle when the driver observes that the speedo isn't working.

That's distinctly different and separate from Honda's obligations to remedy defects, the subject of your post immediately above. That relates to Honda's obligations per the terms of their warranty, lemon laws, etc.. I made / make no comment about that at all.
 

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@nickmv, my comment about driver responsibility was in direct response to your suggestion "Were he to be ticketed, Honda would be legally liable, it sure feels like" (the content of the post I quoted, the context of my comment). That relates specifically to the driver's election to operate the vehicle knowing it has a defect. IMO it's not sensible to make Honda liable for consequence of that election on the drivers' part to operate the vehicle when the driver observes that the speedo isn't working.

That's distinctly different and separate from Honda's obligations to remedy defects, the subject of your post immediately above. That relates to Honda's obligations per the terms of their warranty, lemon laws, etc.. I made / make no comment about that at all.
That's fair.
 

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Transport Canada does required a speedometer and it must measure in kilometres per hour or miles per hour and kilometres per hour. There is no requirement though for accuracy. The vehicle must also have an odometer that measures kilometres or miles and must register with an accuracy of +/- 2%.
 
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