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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
On April 13, 2017, Honda released two TSBs for all 2017 Ridgelines. UPDATE: This issue appears to affect all Honda/Acura vehicles with the 6AT dating back to at least 2012.

TSB 17-025 "Judder from the Torque Converter Lock-Up Clutch" and
TSB 17-026 "Judder from the Torque Converter Lock-Up Clutch After Software Update"

Symptom: A judder between 20-60 MPH that feels like a bad torque converter.

Cause: The transmission fluid may deteriorate quicker than expected due to intermittent high heat loads under specific driving conditions.

Solution: Perform a software update and flush (drain and refill twice) the transmission fluid. The software update is supposed to maintain an acceptable fluid temperature under all driving conditions, but some vehicles will still experience the judder and should be flushed (drain and refill three times) again.

Seems like I remember reading a post about a thermal issue related to design that Honda will attempt to patch with a software update a while back, but I was unable to find the post. I wonder if this was the situation that post was referring to. @csimo, do you have any additional details?
 

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This seems like the same TSB the 2016+ Acura RDXs have been experiencing. Seems like a know issue with Honda's six speed transmission.
 

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I've experienced this issue. Can you please post the TSB?

Truck has sustained vibration in the gas pedal at constant speed between 25-50 mph.
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
What is the software specifically controlling to maintain the temperature?
Most of the heat in a transmission is generated by the friction of the fluid in the torque converter. Less heat is generated during partial engagement of the torque converter clutch. Some heat is generated by the clutches during gear changes.

There are two ways I know of to manage heat through software. One is to increase the speed of shifts which will reduce the amount of slippage of the clutches in between shifts. The other is to increase the use and engagement speed of the torque converter clutch. Both methods will decrease the amount of heat generated at the expense of shift comfort since shifts and TCC engagement will be harsher. The degree of harshness depends on how much adjustment is made.

It's unknown at this time whether the software update is intended to compensate for an inherent design flaw with the transmission or if it simply corrects a software issue that causes the transmission to overheat and burn the fluid.

Personally, I'd suggest having this TSB performed ASAP and would change my transmission fluid more frequently until or unless more is known about this issue.

This seems like the same TSB the 2016+ Acura RDXs have been experiencing. Seems like a know issue with Honda's six speed transmission.
Yup. Same as Acura TSB 16-043, 17-017, and 17-018 affecting the 2013-2017 Acura RDX. Same as 17-014 and 17-015 for the 2016-2017 Pilot. Same for 2013-2017 Accord... No need to check any more - looks like it's most Honda 6AT transmissions from 2013-on (not the Odyssey, though).

UPDATE: Also affects Odysseys with 6AT as well.

http://www.odyclub.com/forums/54-2011-2017-odyssey/279673-those-transmission-issues-2012-2015-odysseys.html
 

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Most of the heat in a transmission is generated by the friction of the fluid in the torque converter. Less heat is generated during partial engagement of the torque converter clutch. Some heat is generated by the clutches during gear changes.

There are two ways I know of to manage heat through software. One is to increase the speed of shifts which will reduce the amount of slippage of the clutches in between shifts. The other is to increase the use and engagement speed of the torque converter clutch. Both methods will decrease the amount of heat generated at the expense of shift comfort since shifts and TCC engagement will be harsher. The degree of harshness depends on how much adjustment is made.

It's unknown at this time whether the software update is intended to compensate for an inherent design flaw with the transmission or if it simply corrects a software issue that causes the transmission to overheat and burn the fluid.

Personally, I'd suggest having this TSB performed ASAP and would change my transmission fluid more frequently until or unless more is known about this issue.



Yup. Same as Acura TSB 16-043, 17-017, and 17-018 affecting the 2013-2017 Acura RDX. Same as 17-014 and 17-015 for the 2016-2017 Pilot. Same for 2013-2017 Accord... No need to check any more - looks like it's most Honda 6AT transmissions from 2013-on (not the Odyssey, though).

UPDATE: Also affects Odysseys with 6AT as well.

For Those With Transmission Issues on 2012-2015 Odysseys
Any idea if the AWD version are less susceptible to this as they come with a transmission cooler?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Any idea if the AWD version are less susceptible to this as they come with a transmission cooler?
It's possible, but the TSB states "all", not "2WD only" or "excluding AWD".

Again, NOW is a really good time to have the TSB done. For the cost of 4 quarts of transmission fluid, it's probably a good idea to change it at each or every other oil change until we're confident the software either fixes or works around whatever the problem is.
 

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@zroger73, would you know if this is a dealer discretion type of thing or you just take it in and they change the fluid and update software. I don't know what it is with Honda and the torque converters on the 5/6AT. My 08 Odyssey needed a software update and now it looks like my Accord will need one as well.

Thanks for the info.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
@zroger73, would you know if this is a dealer discretion type of thing or you just take it in and they change the fluid and update software.
The TSB states that the judder must be captured using a snapshot (an electronic data log taken while the symptom is occurring) and sent to Honda else the warranty claim may be denied.

This condition is warranted for 8 years or 80,000 miles.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Stumbling across the judder issue has revealed some additional concerns. This one, in particular, caught my eye. Remember some of us who have experienced engine knocking?

"TECH LINE SUMMARY ARTICLE - WE’RE GETTING REPORTS OF REDUCED ENGINE POWER WITH THE MIL ON. SERVICE TECHS ARE SEEING DTC P0369 (CMP SENSOR CIRCUIT INTERMITTENT INTERRUPTION) AND SIGNS OF EXCESSIVE CAMSHAFT END PLAY. FROM OUR INVESTIGATION, WE’VE FOUND THAT THE CAMSHAFT THRUST COVER SURFACE ROUGHNESS IS OUT OF SPEC. TO REDUCE END PLAY, SOME TECHS ARE REPLACING THE CAMSHAFT THRUST COVER. BUT EVENTUALLY, THE CAMSHAFT WILL JUST MACHINE THE THRUST COVER AGAIN, RESULTING IN FURTHER EXCESSIVE END PLAY."

Here's another one for those hoping for infotainment system updates:

"THE APP INSTALLER ICON, LISTED UNDER APP LIST ON THE DISPLAY AUDIO SCREEN, HAS DRAWN A FEW QUESTIONS FROM CURIOUS CUSTOMERS. THIS ICON IS MEANT FOR FUTURE APPS THAT MAY BE DEVELOPED. AT THIS TIME, HOWEVER, THERE ARE NONE AVAILABLE OR ANY PLANS TO DEVELOP THEM"

And for those who complain about slow windows:

"DEALER MESSAGE - AMERICAN HONDA (AHM) IS INVESTIGATING CERTAIN 2016-2017 PILOTS & 2017 RIDGELINE WITH A CUSTOMER COMPLAINT OF THE FRONT DRIVER?S AND/OR THE PASSENGER?S WINDOW SLOW TO OPEN/CLOSE. TO FULLY UNDERSTAND THE CAUSE OF THIS CONDITION, AHM WOULD LIKE TO COLLECT SPECIFIC INFORMATION FROM THE VEHICLE PRIOR TO YOU ATTEMPTING A REPAIR OF ANY KIND."

TSBs, and service information are available by subscription only at techinfo.honda.com. "All-you-can-eat" subscriptions start at $10 for one day. For the price of a meal at a fast food restaurant, you can learn a LOT about your vehicle. The TSBs are copyrighted and members have been reprimanded for posting them in the past, so I'm not comfortable doing so. The NHTSA link below will give you summaries, though.

https://www.nhtsa.gov/vehicle/2017/HONDA/RIDGELINE/PU%252FCC/FWD#manufacturerCommunications
 

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The TSB states that the judder must be captured using a snapshot (an electronic data log taken while the symptom is occurring) and sent to Honda else the warranty claim may be denied.

This condition is warranted for 8 years or 80,000 miles.
The TSB for the Accord on the Accord forum states "if the snapshot does not indicate a judder, this bulletin does not apply." In the case of the Accord it is bulletin 17-017 but I suspect the wording will be similar for the RL.

What I find confusing is that at a minimum the software be updated. Even if a snapshot reveals no judder, what suggests that there will not be one in the future? Kind of vague IMO.
 

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The TSB states that the judder must be captured using a snapshot (an electronic data log taken while the symptom is occurring) and sent to Honda else the warranty claim may be denied.

This condition is warranted for 8 years or 80,000 miles.
Where is it stated that this is warranted for 8yrs/80,000 versus the normal 5yr/60,000 powertrain warranty? Does it state that in the TSB but you haven't posted the whole technical bulletin?
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Where is it stated that this is warranted for 8yrs/80,000 versus the normal 5yr/60,000 powertrain warranty? Does it state that in the TSB but you haven't posted the whole technical bulletin?
Yes, under the "WARRANTY CLAIM INFORMATION" section of the TSB, it states that the warranty is the earlier of 8 years or 80,000 miles meaning that if a customer experiences judder during the time, the software update and fluid "flush" will be covered at no cost to the customer even after the 5/60 powertrain warranty has expired.
 

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Wonder if this is what a few folks have been experiencing and just attributed it to the VCM.
Yeah, I would really like to know if that's the case. Got a message in to get the VCMuzzler, and if this is the source of the problem I'm experiencing, than that's $100 I don't need to spend. Muzzler is getting pricey now.
 

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Ok, so I just called Honda corporate and gave them the VIN of my Accord and Ridgeline and they say that the service bulletin does not cover my vehicles. I know that the service bulletin for the Accord has the word ALL printed in the Vin Range box. Now I am really confused. The lady at corporate know her stuff so I don't think there is any misunderstanding here. Initially I thought that maybe she only know about recalls and not service bulletins. There must be more to this.
 

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Wonder if this is what a few folks have been experiencing and just attributed it to the VCM.
From 2017 Honda Ridgeline Press Kit

The VCM system monitors throttle position, vehicle speed, engine speed, automatic-transmission gear selection and other factors to determine the correct cylinder activation scheme for the operating conditions. In addition, the system determines whether engine oil pressure is suitable for VCM switching and whether catalytic converter temperature will remain in the proper range. To further smooth the activating or deactivating cylinders, the system adjusts ignition timing and throttle position and "turns the torque converter lock-up on and off". As a result, the transition between three and six cylinder modes is effectively unnoticeable to the driver. Quotation marks are mine!

Perhaps the additional locking and unlocking of the torque converter due to VCM operation leads to early degradation of the ATF resulting in the
TSB's for judder.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
http://www.filedropper.com/17-025
http://www.filedropper.com/17-026

Yeah, I would really like to know if that's the case. Got a message in to get the VCMuzzler, and if this is the source of the problem I'm experiencing, than that's $100 I don't need to spend. Muzzler is getting pricey now.
I find it interesting how some people swear that VCM is causing all sorts of prominent noises and vibrations while others can barely tell when it transitions. Admittedly, I have to focus intently to determine when it's running on 3-cylinders. Had I not known the vehicle had VCM, I'd never notice. It does make me wonder if they could actually be experiencing TC clutch judder instead.
 
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