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Deliberate shorting of expensive R-1234yf refrigerant

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#21 ·
M12LRV said:
Agree with @KingOfAllGoys; camp hydrocarbon & camp chlorofluorocarbon. It doesn't make environmental or economic sense to use less efficient refrigerants for change-of-state cooling and heating applications.

Correct me if I'm wrong (it's difficult to find actual, objective scientific information on the internet among all the politicized "science" propaganda), but my understanding of the ozone cycle in the stratosphere is that upper-atmosphere ozone is formed naturally by two mechanisms: 1) electrical discharges in the atmosphere (lightning) and 2) by absorbtion of UV rays from the sun such that 3O2 → 2O3 (three O2 molecules become two O3 molecules). Thus, they protect from UV by absorption of the energy during this chemical conversion of O2 into O3. Once formed, the O3 ozone molecules deflect UV rays back into space, because they cannot / do not absorb them in any further chemical process. Between the two natural formation mechanisms, I understand sunlight is the dominant source of ozone creation. When the earth's north and south poles tilt away from the sun in their respective winters, the "hole in the ozone layer" increases in size over the poles as natural ozone production diminishes due to the reduction of sunlight at the poles, and when they tilt back toward the sun in their respective summers, natural ozone production increases with the return of sunlight and the "hole in the ozone layer" decreases in size. This is a completely natural process. At no point in the winter/summer cycle of decreasing and increasing of ozone over the poles, is there a depletion of the ozone layer over the populated middle lattitudes that receive year-round sunshine.
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It actually is easy to get straight info on the ozone hole. NASA should be one of the top hits searching on "Ozone Hole" and they have lots (a lot to ingest) of good info:
Nasa Ozone Watch: Ozone hole facts

Much of the science (such as the effects of the earth's tilt) has been known for decades if not for centuries, and was factored into scientists' thinking early on. Bottom line is CFCs were problematic and the world needed to make changes. The world did make changes and it is helping.

And like KingOfAllGoys noted, "...if people approached mechanical repair in an orderly and avoiding a half assed approach" it would have huge positive impact. Unfortunately the average level of hvac maintenance in vehicles and in buildings is quite poor in the USA, the world's richest nation. We expect that it is even worse in less well funded nations.
 
#22 ·
KingOfAllGoys said:
I run a mixture of propane and isobutanene and isobutane in my old Mercedes 300D turbodiesel... has nearly identical latent heat of evaporation and condensation glide slopes as R-12. Yeah, I have a bottle of old Genetron-12 (name branded R-12) kicking around, but two pounds of propane hardly represents an explosion hazard in a sound and serviced AC system in a vehicle with no spark ignition system.
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Propane and isobutane are what they use in Mexico City. My Mexico City rental car A/C was not cooling and I took it back to the nearest rental car (of the brand i rented from) and they popped the hood and added isobutane to my rental - It cooled fine after that. They said they could not afford R134 so the used propane or butane as refrigerants. In my trips to Mexico, I never heard of a car fire blamed on the refrigerant.
 
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#23 ·
labradragon said:
It actually is easy to get straight info on the ozone hole. NASA should be one of the top hits searching on "Ozone Hole" and they have lots (a lot to ingest) of good info:
Nasa Ozone Watch: Ozone hole facts

Much of the science (such as the effects of the earth's tilt) has been known for decades if not for centuries, and was factored into scientists' thinking early on. Bottom line is CFCs were problematic and the world needed to make changes. The world did make changes and it is helping.

And like KingOfAllGoys noted, "...if people approached mechanical repair in an orderly and avoiding a half assed approach" it would have huge positive impact. Unfortunately the average level of hvac maintenance in vehicles and in buildings is quite poor in the USA, the world's richest nation. We expect that it is even worse in less well funded nations.
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Thanks. The struggle faced by the average layman today is whether or not to trust any official source of information, on any subject. It's been demonstrated countless times that what we are being told, by nominal subject matter experts in the realm of scientific inquiry, turns out to be inaccurate (or even false) once additional facts (or even the facts) come to light. The root of the problem is the political agenda or bias that is systematically applied in the research funding process. Poltically favorable hypotheses are funded and polticially adverse hypothese are left unfunded. This generates a one-sided, self-reinforcing version of scientific "truth", because not all competing hypotheses are tested. The implication is that the competing hypotheses might disprove the prevailing, favored hypotheses and are thus discouraged. Academic researchers who dare to forge ahead anyway with alternate funding sources are putting their careers at risk due to official displeasure with their line of scientific inquiry. So, politics has catured science, which means that it is no longer based on free and open inqury, which means it has lost the credibility traditionally afforded to the hard sciences.
 
Discussion starter · #24 ·
Steve Jordan said:
There is also a lot of anti-science 'propaganda'
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I hope that comment wasn't directed my way. Mechanical energy input to compress a refrigerant to its condensation pressure for a given ambient airflow temperature is the reigning king of environmental impact.

CFC refrigerants are the most energy efficient refrigerants we have. Using refrigerants that require more mechanical work to achieve condensation pressure also has a negative environmental impact.

De minimus release of CFC refrigerants into the atmosphere was not the reason for ozone depletion. Industrialized Western countries were not the primary sources of CFC release into the atmosphere. Like ocean plastic, the bulk of it flows from 10 rivers in Asia.
 
#26 ·
labradragon said:
Agreed that If people approached mechanical repair in an orderly and avoiding a half assed approach, CFC’s are the most energy efficient option. But the reality, as you point out, is that people do not. So refrigerants do need to evolve to suit real world operation. And concurrently we need to do everything we can to encourage proper HVAC maintenance in vehicles and in buildings; at a much higher level of average competence than we see today.
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I do see some good info at the NASA site about the natural creation process of ozone via sunlight.

"O2 is split apart by sunlight into single oxygen atoms. Single oxygen atoms can re-join to make O2, or they can join with O2 molecules to make ozone (O3)."
 
Discussion starter · #27 ·
fdeno said:
Honda made $2.5 billion in the first quarter of 2022, Projecting out, that's $10 billion annually, $700,000 is a rounding error.
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That's the global Honda Incorporated, which includes their power equipment, small engine, automotive, heavy equipment, motorcycle, robotics, and other divisions.

Honda Automotive America sold 52,001 Ridgelines in 2023, and 1.3 million vehicles total just in the US (I don't know if Canada is included in that figure. When you project that number out, with an assumed reduction in system charge between the "minimum" and "recommended" charging weights, that figure swells to $19 million.

$19 million is not a rounding error.
 
Discussion starter · #28 ·
labradragon said:
Agreed it is not a rounding error. And auto manufacturers are famous for cheaping out on things like OEM tires to save a dollar or two per vehicle. Like Ford with Firestone putting cheapo tires on Explorers.
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I happened to work for Bridgestone's materials engineering section years after that happened. Admittedly, ALL tires that come OEM on a vehicle are cheap. The reason for this is two fold-- Vehicle manufacturers are only looking for something that will last 15,000-20,000 miles tops, and spend as little money as possible.

Tire manufacturers then offer softer vulcanized mixtures that are gummier and ride softer (GREAT for test driving that new vehicle on the lot), but don't offer longevity that premium lines of tires offer from tire manufacturers.

The problem with the exploding Firestone Wildnerness A/T (Great tire, BTW... I used to run them on an old Ford Ranger) was Ford's inability to pass government cornering and rollover tests at the recommended inflation pressures for the vehicle. In short... the steering and suspension on that turd sucked. Ford continued to request lower and lower inflation pressures to pass the cornering tests, and the Explorer was sent out into the world with a 26 PSI recommended inflation pressure. Insane. At above 65mph, the sidewalls were just taking on way too much internal friction between the liner and the corded sidewall, and eventually breaking down.
 
#29 ·
Yep......even if I go down the street and buy some new Firestone Destination LE2 tires to replace the original set on my truck (when they wear out) the tires I buy will not be identical to the old ones. As the OP has stated, the tire maker meets the specs that the vehicle maker specifies....even though the name is the same at my local store, the tires are different.

I worked for Ford during that Firestone situation....yes, Ford deserves the blame for that 26 PSI value....which of course most of the time wound up being 24/25 psi since nobody manually checks tire pressure very frequently.

The reason was to induce understeer....which would slow down the vehicle....and reduce the chance of a rollover.

In fact, we can blame Ford for the cost and nuisance of the TPMS system as well.
 
#30 ·
KingOfAllGoys said:
I happened to work for Bridgestone's materials engineering section years after that happened. Admittedly, ALL tires that come OEM on a vehicle are cheap. The reason for this is two fold-- Vehicle manufacturers are only looking for something that will last 15,000-20,000 miles tops, and spend as little money as possible.

Tire manufacturers then offer softer vulcanized mixtures that are gummier and ride softer (GREAT for test driving that new vehicle on the lot), but don't offer longevity that premium lines of tires offer from tire manufacturers.

The problem with the exploding Firestone Wildnerness A/T (Great tire, BTW... I used to run them on an old Ford Ranger) was Ford's inability to pass government cornering and rollover tests at the recommended inflation pressures for the vehicle. In short... the steering and suspension on that turd sucked. Ford continued to request lower and lower inflation pressures to pass the cornering tests, and the Explorer was sent out into the world with a 26 PSI recommended inflation pressure. Insane. At above 65mph, the sidewalls were just taking on way too much internal friction between the liner and the corded sidewall, and eventually breaking down.
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Yet another reason I treat vehicle manufacturers' tire pressure recommendations as a minimum to use in combination with the tire's sidewall-listed maximum; then empirically determine my own best tire pressure somewhere in that range based on ambient temps, load, speed, etc. I usually buy high end Michelins and pretty much always have TP higher than the vehicle manufacturer's TP recommendation; the only exception being when I am at sea level heading to altitude.
 
#31 ·
fdeno said:
Honda made $2.5 billion in the first quarter of 2022, Projecting out, that's $10 billion annually, $700,000 is a rounding error.
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I doubt that since, quote:
Code: 
Honda annual net income for 2023 was $4.82B, a 23.4% decline from 2022.
Honda annual net income for 2022 was $6.293B, a 1.83% increase from 2021.
Honda annual net income for 2021 was $6.18B, a 47.39% increase from 2020.
Still the $700K is a rounding error, albeit $20M mentioned earlier is not. Unless someone view 1-2% of the querterly net income as a rounding error.

I can see this going either ways, doubtful but possible. I'll see it soon enough when I get my first '24 RL...
 
#32 ·
fdeno said:
$700,000 is a rounding error to a company the size of Honda. I installed my own aftermarket A/C in the car in my avatar and used the modern refrigerant after evacuation. The nozzle temps were 40* on a hot Florida day idling in my garage and I only charged to the recommended weight.
I live near Orlando and the Ridgeline did just fine in nearly 100 degrees and killer humidity but it DOES take a while to get going.
View attachment 447164
View attachment 447165
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Screw the Ridgelines, tell us more about the Corvette!
 
#35 ·
I think it would be interesting to see if they were systematically shorting on quantity of refrigerant. I remember testing my ac when someone else complained and think it was indeed a little anemic, data somewhere here in the forum.
I don’t think a few dollars per vehicle is below Honda’s level of interest. I mean how much would a faster processor and more memory for the head unit cost? Not much is the answer. How much cost to put better quality into the cab seals? Look at the VW cheating, and the more recent Dodge Cummins fines if you want to judge corporate honesty in the face of market pressures (or getting bonuses next quarter pressures). I think I remember reading about super-thin cooling system components on the RL that are susceptible to road debris damage. I don’t think it is unreasonable to hold Honda USA in a ‘trust but verify’ light. 😀
 
#36 ·
All four of our Hondas have/had anemic a/c. We brought all of them to the dealership during warranty to have them checked and each time were told they were operating “nominally.” Apparently this is considered a feature.
 
#37 · (Edited)
I am really curious why folks here appear to have complaints about an anemic A/C, but yet ours has been keeping us comfortable for its five years. Folks here also appear to have complaints about the heat being anemic, but yet again ours has been keeping us comfortable down to 40 below. What gives?
Bill
 
#38 ·
It's been reported here year after year that there have been inconsistencies in the various Ridgelines for cooling inside. Personally, mine was one of the weaker ones. I added some freon and it's been good since. That was at least 5 years back.
 
#39 ·
wjfyfe said:
I am really curious why folks here appear to have complaints about an anemic A/C, but yet ours has been keeping us comfortable for its five years. Folks here also appear to have complaints about the heat being anemic, but yet again ours has been keeping us comfortable down to 40 below. What gives?
Bill
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You are in a northern climate (Montana) so the a/c probably manages fine there. As for your satisfaction with the heat, it could be a combination of factors. Maybe in northern climates you are more bundled up when driving in winter, maybe you are naturally more acclimated to cold temps, maybe ??? But you must have a very rare Honda that doesn’t blow cold air on your feet when heat is split between two zones.

Also, your experience is with a single model (Ridgeline) from a single model year. Some of us have owned quite a few Hondas across decades. In my case a ‘95 Accord, ‘06 CRV, ‘07 Pilot, ‘14 Ridgeline. All have had a/c that struggles to keep up in hot temps, and all blow cold air on your feet if you split heat with another zone.
 
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#40 ·
I live near Atlanta......hot and humid summers with strong summer sun.

When I come back from a day of boating, my (1998 F150 -134A) truck was blazing hot. It was also burgundy....surface temps were crazy hot.

The AC performed well for 25 years.

This summer I will be experiencing: a pearl white paint job, 1234yf, and Honda's selection of AC components in my RL.

Whether this discussion had occurred or not.....if my first summer with my RL involves mediocre AC performance...I will be visiting the dealer and reporting my experience here at ROC.

I am open minded and hope that I have a good experience.
 
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