The Autopian - If Your Car Has a Timing Belt, It's Not Really "Reliable"

Shoulder · Mar 4, 2024

If Your Car Has A Timing Belt, It's Not Really 'Reliable' - The Autopian

The legendary Toyota Land Cruiser, the unstoppable XV20 Toyota Camry, generations of Honda Accords, the smooth and trusty Lexus LS — these are often mistakenly considered some of the most reliable cars of all time. I say “mistakenly,” because all of these vehicles are expected to grenade...

www.theautopian.com

This one is quite an interesting discussion if only because our Ridgelines all have timing belts, and require replacing ~100k miles. But according to David Tracy, it practically means all Ridgelines are not really reliable because we do rely on timing belts that require interval maintenance (In his example, he uses the 100-Series Toyota Land Cruiser as his primary example).

I should mention for those who don't know, David Tracy used to work as an Engineer at Jeep during the Gladiator project, so it's not as though he's some rando. The guy does have a good understanding of engineering, and can wrench on just about any vehicle you throw at him.

Long post in Spoiler tag

One of my first thoughts though after reading this is he's singling out one part of an engine that is one part of an entire car, and using that to determine if the car as a whole is reliable or not. I honestly don't quite understand that logic, though it is true the timing belt, or a timing chain of an engine, is a very critical part of the beating heart of the car. If that goes, you're potentially looking at a new engine if it's bad enough. He goes on saying you're looking at a grand for a new timing belt, which is true though MOST of the time, there's incidental items that can also be replaced at the same time such as a water pump, seal/gasket, and possibly other wearable items which will also drive the cost up some.

I have yet to actually do a timing belt replacement (My RL only has under 36k miles on it), but based on everything that I've seen/read, and I'm an ok enough DIY mechanic, it doesn't look to be THAT difficult. Maybe time consuming, but not necessarily difficult.

Some of the comments did mention some other wearable items of similar cost such as full brakes/rotors, Suspension, Tires, etc, though in fairness, those are incidental items to EVERY car out there. A timing belt isn't always used in an engine, and thus isn't part of every vehicle's maintenance interval. On the flip side, there are pretty bad engines with Timing Chains where either the chain itself gets stretched out, and/or a tensioner or guide goes bad. While the Chain shouldn't really be a maintenance item, the tensioner and guides are for the most part going to go bad at some point, though again, some makes and models are better than others.

I'm not completely disagreeing with David on this one as I think he has some points, but also believe his take is a little misguided, and doesn't tell the whole story. Does a bulletproof drivetrain complete overrule other aspects of a car that may or may not fail? I would suggest it's about the entire car rather than the engine and drivetrain. I think most will agree that a Land Cruiser not only will still run and drive in 20 years, but everything else around it will also. I don't think you can say the same about most Jeeps, especially when they get into the high mileage threshold of +200k miles or more.

What say you, ROC? Does a timing belt replacement suddenly make a car not as reliable suddenly?

14v6 · Mar 4, 2024

The name of the game is to keep your vehicle out of the service department. You open up a can of worms for improper parts and shoddy work whereas this can be avoided completely by having an engine that does not have a service interval for this. This service can be over 2k, that's a lot of money to put into a car with 100k on it that could be used for other things like brake calipers, spark plugs, tires etc.

It's a lot to manage as well. AFAIK, it should be

timing belt
water pump
tensioner
idlers
seals

Not all dealers or shops will do it this way.
Then there's the valve adjustment where they pull off the intake manifold and you have to hope that the covers seal. I've had a CRV with a valve cover that they couldn't seal after two attempts.

At least the new compliance V6 doesn't need a valve adjustment.

Sorry this doesn't completely answer the question.

ISO Truck · Mar 4, 2024

I would much prefer a lifetime timing chain. Our G2 CRV’s 2.4L I4 uses a timing chain that has no replacement interval. Now almost 19 years old and we have been spared that expense completely, unlike our Pilot and (coming due soon) Ridgeline.

Tommy4eyes · Mar 4, 2024

I'd prefer a timing chain, but I don't think a belt makes a car any less "reliable", and I can understand the appeal of both. But what I don't understand is the choice of a timing belt on an interference engine.

Shoulder · Mar 4, 2024

Tommy4eyes said:
I'd prefer a timing chain, but I don't think a belt makes a car any less "reliable", and I
can understand the appeal of both. But what I don't understand is the choice of a timing belt on an interference engine.

I've wondered this myself over the years, and the only thing that I can come up with is something related to emissions, and/or fuel efficiency requirements. If I recall, this is why the newest J35 engine that's in the Pilot doesn't have Vtec with a SOHC, and instead uses a DOHC. I remember some article mentioning they switched to DOHC for the emissions, but I don't know if that's really the case.

And I do agree. all things being equal, I'll take a timing chain over a timing belt, but I wouldn't suddenly call the engine unreliable because of it, especially if its interval is 100k miles or more.

fdeno · Mar 4, 2024

Not impressed just because some internet expert worked on the Jeep Gladiator. A 10 year old could have designed the ugly "box on a box" design...

sneefy · Mar 4, 2024

Car: Needs periodic maintenance.

David Tracy: iT's uNreLiAblE!

His premise is a bit of a logical leap and more than a bit fallacious. I would prefer a chain, sure, but just because it has a timing belt does not, by definition, mean it's unreliable.

His opinion: 1/10. Would not recommend.

MD-Ridge · Mar 4, 2024

Next guys problem

, I usually don't keep cars to 100K miles

Ergo Sum · Mar 5, 2024

The longest I've kept a vehicle, F150, was 25 years; when I sold the truck, it had 75K miles. At this pace, the '24 RL would be around 30 years old to hit 100K.

longboat · Mar 4, 2024

Pros of timing belt:
1) quiet,

2) reduced oil destruction = longer OCIs (this does not apply to you jokers who think you need to change oil every 5k regardless

),

3) you essentially get a new engine with a timing belt replacement (timing chains stretch and your engine power is reduced over time, but it happens so slowly that you don't realize it),

4) a TB allows more precise valve timing at higher rpms, allowing for VTEC and other performance enhancements

Probably others i can't think of at the moment.

Most timing chains need to be replaced, also. Their replacement intervals are just a little longer. They can also break. And many Ford engines have timing chain tensioners that let go early (as well as cam phasers) and if you're not paying attention, it will cost you a new engine.

I generally like David Tracy, but i will disagree with him on this one. I suspect he was trying to drum up a little controversy to increase traffic to the website.

FWIW, he was a powertrain engineer on the Gladiator project and had to work within some pretty tight restrictions to get an optimal grill design to allow sufficient heat rejection for larger towing numbers.

https://jalopnik.com/the-engineering-behind-the-jeep-gladiators-tow-rating-1833657453

He also did a pretty good piece on the Ridgeline a while back:

Mid-Size Trucks Don't Need Frames

Hardcore truck people probably don’t think of the 2017 Honda Ridgeline as a “real truck,” but I just towed a classic Ford Mustang over the Appalachians with one. So why aren’t there more trucks in the U.S. built on a unibody platform like the Ridgeline? I talked to engineers at Honda and Toyota...

jalopnik.com

wjfyfe · Mar 4, 2024

longboat said:
Most timing chains need to be replaced, also. Their replacement intervals are jist a little longer. They can also break. And many Ford engines have timing chain tensioners that let go early (as well as cam phasers) and if you're not paying attention, it will cost you a new engine.

I generally like David Tracy, but i will disagree with him on this one. I suspect he was trying to drum up a little controversy to increase traffic to the website.

Thank you for your common sense response, longboat!

Bill

johnson-rod · Mar 4, 2024

V configured engines will get a LOT more complicated if you go to a timing chain. It's not the chain so much (although it's expensive) but all the fiddly tensioners, sliders, oilers and pulleys to keep the very long chain from breaking catastrophically. Ford had a ton of problems with their previous V8's slippers and tensioners of the timing chain. Mercedes Benz and Jaguar also had problems with their timing chain tensioners taking out the chain and then the whole front of the engine. Everything is great for about 100K then they get sloppy. Timing belts never get sloppy but they have their problems. Gears are great but expensive and noisy. Timing gears are used mostly in racing engines and motorcycles. Except Ducati which uses a timing belt.

The rubber timing belted engines are an easy solution to a complex problem so engineers like them and they're cheap so the accountants like them. Ferrari used them on their V8 and V12 engines. The problem with most timing belted designs is not so much the engine but how the engine is mounted and the problems getting to the belt. I had a Fiat that needed a new timing belt every 25K miles but it took less than an hour to replace it. One time it was at the dealer for something else (it was a Fiat) and I paid to have it replaced. It cost $80.00.

Transverse mounted V8s or V6s are really tough to get to the front (side) of the engine and space is tight to work. Even more so in a transverse mounted mid-engine sports car like the Ferrari 3XX series V8s. Then Ferrari made it worse when they moved the engine longitudinally and the front of the engine was now against the back of the seats. They suggested you remove the entire rear sub-frame and engine/trans/rear to replace the timing belt. Every 3 years. Same with the Testarossa. But then you must have the money...

jzondor · Mar 7, 2024

You should look up some of the Audi/VW V8 timing chain replacements. Some motors have a chain the in the front and back of the motor. Not only do you have to drop the motor, but disassemble 20-30% more of the motor just to get to the timing chains.

AzNorthridge · Mar 4, 2024

I have had the timing belt replaced in other vehicles I have owned, like my Lexus RX, and I wouldn't be calling that an unreliable vehicle. From my personal experience it is one of the most reliable vehicles I have ever owned. So having to change a belt every 110k is a small price to pay.

F6Hawk · Mar 5, 2024

Shoulder said:
What say you, ROC? Does a timing belt replacement suddenly make a car not as reliable suddenly?

Timing chains come with their own issues, and they still need to be replaced, though at longer intervals. (And what happens if they are not replaced, and they just stretch, and sprocket teeth wear?)

Replaced my 2005 RL timing belt, water pump, etc. for about $130 back in 2016, and the guy who owns it today says it's still going strong. I put about $1500 into that truck in 11 years, including oil and one set of tires, rear seat cams, RF headlight, and a few other things I can no longer remember. Pretty reliable, IMO.

Shoulder · Mar 5, 2024

One counterpoint I've heard is "timing chains don't require replacement, and last the life of the engine!" So I bite, and think to myself, "Ok, how long is the life of the engine? 100k miles? 200k? 400k? ONE MILLION MILES?" The gentleman who drove his 4-Cyl RWD Nissan Frontier in Chicago for 1 million miles, Brian Murphy, replaced the timing chain at 700k, but only because he was there doing other stuff, and figured why not. But with an engine with only one bank of cylinders, and thus only one timing chain required, its simplicity adds to its longevity. Same would hold true for a Straight-6.

I think the reason why most manufacturers do not put a service interval into a Timing Chain is because it could last damn near half a million miles before it's stretched. On the other hand, another poster above mentioned timing chains are quite complex in their design. I was even talking with my wife yesterday, and mentioned how a typical timing chain doesn't require oil to be circulated through vs. a timing chain. In fact, this might explain why my 3.2 Pentastar V6 in my former Jeep Cherokee required a full 6 quarts of oil, whereas the 3.5 V6 in the Ridgeline only takes 5.6/5.7 quarts. On top of engine block design, wonder if it's also because a timing belt doesn't require oil to circulate though?

Also, since we're on the subject of Timing Chains, and how ludicrous their design can get, I bring you the Holy Grail of overengineered Timing Chains! (Audi 4.2 V8)

Completely extreme case here for sure, though just off hand, I spot 4 individual chains, 4 Belt Tensioners, 10 Chain Guides, 8 sprockets (2 of which are attached to another sprocket), and don't know how many holes for the oil.

Maxbo · Mar 5, 2024

This can be argued until the cows come home. Myself I prefer chains. Like everything else, if it is designed properly and maintained (oil / filter changed / correct type and weight of oil used) a chain should last the lifetime of the engine. The questions is (what is a lifetime). Belts do have their place in certain engines but do add extra costs of ownership to a vehicle. Doing the work yourself keeps costs down, but this is not a reality for everyone. Toyota has a decent chain cam drive system that used multiple chains instead of a belt. So I know the Japanese manufacturers can do it.

CBennett · Mar 5, 2024

Shoulder said:
If Your Car Has A Timing Belt, It's Not Really 'Reliable' - The Autopian

The legendary Toyota Land Cruiser, the unstoppable XV20 Toyota Camry, generations of Honda Accords, the smooth and trusty Lexus LS — these are often mistakenly considered some of the most reliable cars of all time. I say “mistakenly,” because all of these vehicles are expected to grenade...

www.theautopian.com

This one is quite an interesting discussion if only because our Ridgelines all have timing belts, and require replacing ~100k miles. But according to David Tracy, it practically means all Ridgelines are not really reliable because we do rely on timing belts that require interval maintenance (In his example, he uses the 100-Series Toyota Land Cruiser as his primary example).

I should mention for those who don't know, David Tracy used to work as an Engineer at Jeep during the Gladiator project, so it's not as though he's some rando. The guy does have a good understanding of engineering, and can wrench on just about any vehicle you throw at him.

Long post in Spoiler tag

One of my first thoughts though after reading this is he's singling out one part of an engine that is one part of an entire car, and using that to determine if the car as a whole is reliable or not. I honestly don't quite understand that logic, though it is true the timing belt, or a timing chain of an engine, is a very critical part of the beating heart of the car. If that goes, you're potentially looking at a new engine if it's bad enough. He goes on saying you're looking at a grand for a new timing belt, which is true though MOST of the time, there's incidental items that can also be replaced at the same time such as a water pump, seal/gasket, and possibly other wearable items which will also drive the cost up some.

I have yet to actually do a timing belt replacement (My RL only has under 36k miles on it), but based on everything that I've seen/read, and I'm an ok enough DIY mechanic, it doesn't look to be THAT difficult. Maybe time consuming, but not necessarily difficult.

Some of the comments did mention some other wearable items of similar cost such as full brakes/rotors, Suspension, Tires, etc, though in fairness, those are incidental items to EVERY car out there. A timing belt isn't always used in an engine, and thus isn't part of every vehicle's maintenance interval. On the flip side, there are pretty bad engines with Timing Chains where either the chain itself gets stretched out, and/or a tensioner or guide goes bad. While the Chain shouldn't really be a maintenance item, the tensioner and guides are for the most part going to go bad at some point, though again, some makes and models are better than others.

I'm not completely disagreeing with David on this one as I think he has some points, but also believe his take is a little misguided, and doesn't tell the whole story. Does a bulletproof drivetrain complete overrule other aspects of a car that may or may not fail? I would suggest it's about the entire car rather than the engine and drivetrain. I think most will agree that a Land Cruiser not only will still run and drive in 20 years, but everything else around it will also. I don't think you can say the same about most Jeeps, especially when they get into the high mileage threshold of +200k miles or more.

What say you, ROC? Does a timing belt replacement suddenly make a car not as reliable suddenly?

I guess if he is talking about whats better and more reliable a timing chain or belt yes the Chains better and more reliable.. that said it just means that the belt as you said should be changed every 100K// which for me means id probably never have to worry about it.. I have been driving since 1985 owned cars since 1987 have had over 30 different cars in that time.. 1 car I have owned as my daily driver had 100+k in the last 35+ish years.. and the next closest was in the 70's or 80's after that the most ive gotten is around 50 or 60K.. Ive also never owned a car longer than 5 years..

My personal point being chain or belt probably doesnt matter to me as im probably not going over 100K with it.. This one will have to last me a good 8-9 years though so this one will be the closest I will come again to 100K probably .

Id not use the word UNreliable thats not true... the word/term Less Reliable however is probably apt.. but again only if your keeping things 10+ years, buying high mileage cars, or dont do the maintenance when needed.

Would I if i had my opinion matter rather have the chain.. YES, but is a belt a dealbreaker for me.. not at all.

Danke · Mar 5, 2024

Gears or nothing for me.

CBennett · Mar 5, 2024

I had a 1969 RoadRunner with Gear Drive purposely put the loud set in(they had a loud and quiet set) sounded great.

IggysRidgeline · Mar 5, 2024

Friends G1 Pilot went 223k on its original belt till he’s like maybe I should change it. The shop that did it sent a pic of the bolt holding the tensioner on was pretty much fully backed out and held against the cover. Do your service interval maintenance!!

dukebound85 · Mar 5, 2024

I don't know if I agree. Obviously I would like to have a car where this service was not needed but I have a 2002 Tundra with over 530k miles sitting in my driveway that has been the definition of reliable. The only reason I have a ridgeline is because of a growing family and the tundra's inability to accommodate carseats

wjfyfe · Mar 5, 2024

For argument sake, let us accept that the timing belt is unreliable, what is anybody going to do about it?

Bill

Shoulder · Mar 5, 2024

While this is more in line of a "serpentine" belt than a timing belt, the 1990s Kenmore Dryer that came with our house had never been serviced until about a month ago. I recently took it apart, and vacuumed all the lint in the ducts, and anywhere else dust bunnies had accumulated over the years. When I took the drum off, the belt looked original, and while still working, had lots of cracking. A quick search on Sears Parts Direct, and now I have a new belt, drum seal, and foam seal for the vent duct waiting to be installed, which I'll do in another week or so.

Is the humble tumble dryer unreliable because it uses a belt instead of being direct drive?

NoelPR · Mar 5, 2024

I'm speechless by the fact that this post exists because a Jeep engineer talks about reliability. #NonSense

Seriously?

Come on, April's fools is just a few weeks away.

dkayak · Mar 5, 2024

It’s a clickbait headline. The timing belt affects maintenance cost but not reliability. If you replace it on time you’ll never be affected. The same can be said of drivetrain fluid changes, motorcycle valve adjustments, etc.

Shoulder · Mar 5, 2024

Was thinking about this as well. Does More Maintenance = Less Reliability, and vice versa? I think we already know the answer to that question, but wanted to point it out for the sake of this thread.

And speaking of fluid changes, the Chrysler 948TE, which is their version of the ZF 9HP used in their own models, states the transmission in there has a "Lifetime" fluid, and has no service interval. By contrast, ZF, and by extension Honda, state the fluid in the ZF 9HP does have a service interval. Does that mean the Chrysler variant (which again, is by all accounts the same exact transmission as the ZF 9HP, just with a different housing and software tuning) is more reliable than the ZF unit?

I drove my Cherokee KL until it had over 200k miles, and the tranny fluid was never changed. Should I have, given the conventional wisdom is to change your transmission fluid every so often (50-100k miles maybe)?

Drsojo · Mar 5, 2024

Shoulder said:
used to work as an Engineer

There's an old "engineer" joke that rings true here...

Harvey Wall · Mar 5, 2024

Considering that the author is a self described "Rust-loving Jeep man" that in and of itself makes the opinion put forth suspect. We all know how reliable Jeep is. It speaks a lot to the engineering as well.

If it is mechanical in any way shape or form it is Unreliable. PERIOD. At some point a component will fail and it will break down. The only way to keep any mechanical device highly reliable it to to proper maintenance competently done on time every time and to never ignore anything unusual or out of the ordinary.

The unreliable part of the equation is the human, who for what ever reasons fails to do what is needed, as needed and when needed.

Bobled · Mar 5, 2024

Dumb statement. What difference does it make if the belt is on the inside of the housing or the outside? A simple periodic belt replacement makes this a total non issue. Consumer Reports recent car reliability rating show Honda at #5, led by Acura, Mini, Toyota and Lexus. Jeep is at #26. Enough Said.

I recently bought a 22 RTL-E. with 20k miles on it. I am looking forward to 100k, to do the timing belt and the valves by myself.

Danke · Mar 5, 2024

Bobled said:
Dumb statement. What difference does it make if the belt is on the inside of the housing or the outside? A simple periodic belt replacement makes this a total non issue. Consumer Reports recent car reliability rating show Honda at #5, led by Acura, Mini, Toyota and Lexus. Jeep is at #26. Enough Said.

I recently bought a 22 RTL-E. with 20k miles on it. I am looking forward to 100k, to do the timing belt and the valves by myself.

You don't want a bunch of grime getting between the belt and the pulleys. That would eventually mess with the timing.

stevem5215 · Mar 5, 2024

My experience with timing belts was in my 76' Ford Mustang Cobra II. It had the "gasp" 2.3 4cyl engine. It broke in there and I had to tow it home and fix it in my driveway. Then the rocker arms wore out and died again. Fixed that in my driveway and then drove it till the engine started blowing smoke and the transmission was slipping from the clutch being shot. Ok, that was the end of that car. Hmmm. . timing belts suck. Then I bought a 80' Mercury Capri Turbo RS. Drove that car for 57,000mi and didn't do anything to it other than oil changes and a battery. Sold that to buy a house before any major maint was done to it. Then bought a beater $300 Ford Pinto with the 'gasp 2.3l engine again. Yep, two more times belts blew and I had to swap them out too. I was getting experience doing this. Drove that car for 27,000 business miles and made some money on it. But, I swore off belt systems after that. Right up till the Ridgeline. I knew it was a belt but figured it had to be more reliable than those junk cars were back then. So far I've been right. 72,000mi on it and I'm more worried about journal bearings (did the oil test and it's good) and the junk 6 speed transmission (doing regular testing to "see" inside it and make sure it's working good). Yeah, I agree with that guy about how belts suck and while it's scheduled maint it's still expensive maint unless doing it yourself. My Pinto belt was $20 back then. lol

Beaumontian · Mar 5, 2024

Well, the 2UZ-FE engine from Toyota, kind of the king of reliability in engines, has a timing belt, so I don't know what this guy is on about. Changing a belt and water pump every 100k miles to have an engine that will easily go 5x that distance is easily worth it. Someone posted the Audi V8 timing chain above, thats only acceptable to ze Germans.

Shoulder · Mar 6, 2024

Don’t know how this’ll be received here, but David Tracy mentioned on Twitter that he’s replaced the timing belt a couple times on his Lexus LX, which uses that same 2UZ-FE, and he’d rather replace the Head Gasket on the AMC 4.0 I6 than do the timing belts on the 2UZ-FE.

Mind you, him being a Jeep guy, he’s worked on countless ones with that engine, so his bias is there for sure. He’s not normally a Toyota guy as you can tell.

NewRidgey · Mar 5, 2024

My Toyota Sienna timing CHAIN jumped off and engine seized. Basically totalled my Sienna, timing chains are indestructible. Confirmed by repair shop and my most trustworthy mechanic, my FIL.

CNC1 · Mar 5, 2024

So, belts are better than chains? A lot of Harley's use a drive belt, with no problems. True this is a different application, but belts today are a lot better than just rubber belts of the old days. Chains will stretch and wear the sprockets. Top fuel dragsters use a belt driven supercharger, I wonder why they aren't chain driven (LOL).

Drsojo · Mar 9, 2024

CNC1 said:
Top fuel dragsters use a belt driven supercharger, I wonder why they aren't chain driven

They started out with chain drive blowers.
Chains tend to grenade the entire engine when they come apart...

Another belt benefit is forgiveness. A belt is more forgiving than a chain. Unless you have a valve interference motor, a broken belt does relatively little damage.
Both stretch over time changing valve timing, regardless. You usually can't tell the difference until you replace a worn belt or chain. Replacing a worn timing drive will actually change the sound of the motor.

If Your Car Has A Timing Belt, It's Not Really 'Reliable' - The Autopian

The Autopian - If Your Car Has a Timing Belt, It's Not Really "Reliable"

If Your Car Has A Timing Belt, It's Not Really 'Reliable' - The Autopian

Mid-Size Trucks Don't Need Frames

If Your Car Has A Timing Belt, It's Not Really 'Reliable' - The Autopian

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