[Wisconsin_Mike]

Not sure how much the 10 speed will add, considering probably most of the time the Ridgelines aren't hitting 9th.

My 2023 will automatically shift into 9th at 63 MPH under light throttle and hold 9th down below 55 MPH unless I get on the gas a little.

 

[longboat]

My 2023 will automatically shift into 9th at 63 MPH under light throttle and hold 9th down below 55 MPH unless I get on the gas a little.

Will it stay in 9th at 80mph on the interstate, or downshift to 8th? How about with a 15mph headwind at 80mph?

 

[Wisconsin_Mike]

What is driving the trend upwards in gear count?

It's an attempt to hold the engine at it's peak efficiency independent of highway speed.

As you can imagine, for any given set of driving parameters (such as road speed and engine load), there is an engine RPM that will provide peak efficiency for those parameters. The more transmission gears that the vehicle has available to choose from, the greater its ability to choose a gear ratio that achieves that peak efficiency.

My brother used to have a '71 Nova with a 2-speed automatic. That small block V8 had a very wide RPM range during normal driving, which means that it wasn't running at peak efficiency very much of the time. For many years up through the '80s the 3-speed was common. Those transmissions usually topped out at 1:1 in top gear meaning that there was no overdrive gears. Then in the '90s we started seeing a lot more overdrive transmissions with more gears which provided even more gear ratio options.

Today, our Ridgelines have 9 gears to choose between - 4 of which are overdrive gears. This gives the Ridgeline the ability to hold the engine into a very narrow RPM range while leisurely accelerating from a stop to highway speeds. If you watch your tachometer while slowly accelerating from about 10 MPH to 65 MPH, the engine will stay between about 1400 - 1600 RPM. The only way to achieve that is to provide a lot of transmission gears. Obviously if you demand faster acceleration, this will require more power than the engine can produce at such a low RPM, so the Ridgeline will allow the engine to speed up to produce more power.

 

[Wisconsin_Mike]

Will it stay in 9th at 80mph on the interstate, or downshift to 8th? How about with a 15mph headwind at 80mph?

I don't know. In rural Wisconsin, I don't get to hit 80 MPH very often. I know that from 63 to 75MPH, my Ridgeline stays in 9th most of the time. Obviously with higher speeds comes more engine load, so you may be correct. 80 in 9th should be 1887 RPM vs. 1651 RPM at 70, so the engine should be making a bit more power, but the drag is significantly higher.

 

[poohbill]

It's an attempt to hold the engine at it's peak efficiency independent of highway speed.

As you can imagine, for any given set of driving parameters (such as road speed and engine load), there is an engine RPM that will provide peak efficiency for those parameters. The more transmission gears that the vehicle has available to choose from, the greater its ability to choose a gear ratio that achieves that peak efficiency.

My brother used to have a '71 Nova with a 2-speed automatic. That small block V8 had a very wide RPM range during normal driving, which means that it wasn't running at peak efficiency very much of the time. For many years up through the '80s the 3-speed was common. Those transmissions usually topped out at 1:1 in top gear meaning that there was no overdrive gears. Then in the '90s we started seeing a lot more overdrive transmissions with more gears which provided even more gear ratio options.

Today, our Ridgelines have 9 gears to choose between - 4 of which are overdrive gears. This gives the Ridgeline the ability to hold the engine into a very narrow RPM range while leisurely accelerating from a stop to highway speeds. If you watch your tachometer while slowly accelerating from about 10 MPH to 65 MPH, the engine will stay between about 1400 - 1600 RPM. The only way to achieve that is to provide a lot of transmission gears. Obviously if you demand faster acceleration, this will require more power than the engine can produce at such a low RPM, so the Ridgeline will allow the engine to speed up to produce more power.

Thank you for this!

Generally then in the case of the RL, more cost and complexity for minor improvements, if the 6sp was reliable.

 

[Wisconsin_Mike]

Generally then in the case of the RL, more cost and complexity for minor improvements, if the 6sp was reliable.

Yes! That's the way improvements often work. The low hanging fruit is picked first and afterwards come much more difficult improvements with diminishing returns. The introduction of overdrive transmissions and fuel injection helped lead to significant fuel economy gains, more than doubling the fuel economy from 12 MPG for a large 250 HP sedan in the '60s to well over 25 MPG in the '90s for similarly sized vehicles with similar power. We'll just skip over the mid '70s through the '80s where the technology did not exist yet to achieve the same power while hitting economy and emissions standards. But now everyone expects to get comparatively good fuel economy, have ample power, have lots of features that add weight and complexity, AND achieve comparatively very little emissions. So to achieve this, more and more complications need to be added. In the case of this discussion, a 9-speed transmission is absolutely not necessary for a Ridgeline to meet all of it's performance criteria - a 5-speed would do just fine. But to hit fuel economy targets, more complications need to be added.

I think we're near the end of the 2nd golden era of the gasoline automobile. We currently have very good reliability (we EXPECT to get well over 100,000 miles with no major failures), very low emissions, and incredible power compared to any other time in history. You can walk into almost any truck dealer today and drive away with a 400 HP truck that is safe, reliable, and gets amazing fuel economy compared to any historically similar vehicle. Sure, there were 400 HP vehicles in the late '60s or early '70s, but they were comparatively rare, far from reliable, got 8 MPG, and had comparatively few features (safety or otherwise).

 

[markk53]

What is driving the trend upwards in gear count?

I'd say low torque versus the old big inch V-8s Smaller engine can compensate by wide range of gears. Plus it helps avoid sticking some hi/low range shifter in a Ridgeline. Maybe the 9 speed is going to be phased out either by the manufacturer or Honda's going to build their own. All speculation on my part.

 

[markk53]

My 2023 will automatically shift into 9th at 63 MPH under light throttle and hold 9th down below 55 MPH unless I get on the gas a little.

Yep and in I-70 traffic ya don't get a lot of consistent relaxed cruising, even if you are driving conservatively. But I'd be afraid of some Peterbilt grill embedding in the tailgate if I was running 55.

The key words are "light throttle". Not much of that going on when I get out on the "4 lane". That's why I noticed what I mentioned. I may have been in 9th at 55, but changes in traffic get a down shift and if I've not reached 63 I'm running a bit higher revs in 8th If down below 55 I might even end up in 7th.

With all the shifting there will be a feeling of sluggishness because of transaxle "decision making". If i don't want to live with it I can either tap down on the loud pedal or I can paddle shift either direction.

 

[ATL RL]

Yes! That's the way improvements often work. The low hanging fruit is picked first and afterwards come much more difficult improvements with diminishing returns. The introduction of overdrive transmissions and fuel injection helped lead to significant fuel economy gains, more than doubling the fuel economy from 12 MPG for a large 250 HP sedan in the '60s to well over 25 MPG in the '90s for similarly sized vehicles with similar power. We'll just skip over the mid '70s through the '80s where the technology did not exist yet to achieve the same power while hitting economy and emissions standards. But now everyone expects to get comparatively good fuel economy, have ample power, have lots of features that add weight and complexity, AND achieve comparatively very little emissions. So to achieve this, more and more complications need to be added. In the case of this discussion, a 9-speed transmission is absolutely not necessary for a Ridgeline to meet all of it's performance criteria - a 5-speed would do just fine. But to hit fuel economy targets, more complications need to be added.

I think we're near the end of the 2nd golden era of the gasoline automobile. We currently have very good reliability (we EXPECT to get well over 100,000 miles with no major failures), very low emissions, and incredible power compared to any other time in history. You can walk into almost any truck dealer today and drive away with a 400 HP truck that is safe, reliable, and gets amazing fuel economy compared to any historically similar vehicle. Sure, there were 400 HP vehicles in the late '60s or early '70s, but they were comparatively rare, far from reliable, got 8 MPG, and had comparatively few features (safety or otherwise).

I am hoping the 2nd golden age gets extended due to standards potentially being frozen/relaxed and allowing an increase in the availability of many NA 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder engines....with a few V8s thrown in the mix for those that need them.

 

[poohbill]

Yes! That's the way improvements often work. The low hanging fruit is picked first and afterwards come much more difficult improvements with diminishing returns. The introduction of overdrive transmissions and fuel injection helped lead to significant fuel economy gains, more than doubling the fuel economy from 12 MPG for a large 250 HP sedan in the '60s to well over 25 MPG in the '90s for similarly sized vehicles with similar power. We'll just skip over the mid '70s through the '80s where the technology did not exist yet to achieve the same power while hitting economy and emissions standards. But now everyone expects to get comparatively good fuel economy, have ample power, have lots of features that add weight and complexity, AND achieve comparatively very little emissions. So to achieve this, more and more complications need to be added. In the case of this discussion, a 9-speed transmission is absolutely not necessary for a Ridgeline to meet all of it's performance criteria - a 5-speed would do just fine. But to hit fuel economy targets, more complications need to be added.

I think we're near the end of the 2nd golden era of the gasoline automobile. We currently have very good reliability (we EXPECT to get well over 100,000 miles with no major failures), very low emissions, and incredible power compared to any other time in history. You can walk into almost any truck dealer today and drive away with a 400 HP truck that is safe, reliable, and gets amazing fuel economy compared to any historically similar vehicle. Sure, there were 400 HP vehicles in the late '60s or early '70s, but they were comparatively rare, far from reliable, got 8 MPG, and had comparatively few features (safety or otherwise).

Very true, yet we approach 2030, a model year in design now, 60 years later, tweaking the basic technology, often introducing new failure modes in each production year. Is this, as you say, driven by customer expectations? I don’t believe we asked for a 2017 RL to need completion through recalls. ICE is a mature component of a mature model - Truck - and Honda had a reputation up to that time. We expected better, getting it only after five production years of the G2 RL.

My belief is builders obscure and then owners discount Cost of Ownership factors. Much more can be done there.