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Deliberate shorting of expensive R-1234yf refrigerant

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KingOfAllGoys

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Discussion starter · #1 · (Edited by Moderator)
There are a litany of people on this forum who have reported poor performance of their AC system. I can attest to this, as my 2022 BE had 50-52 degree vent air on an 75 degree day. Despite the slightly higher boiling temperature of 1234yf over 134a, and the higher condensation pressure, a properly charged and properly metered system with an adequately sized and modulating TXV should easily be able to achieve a delta T of 40 degrees at the vent above 80 ambient. Suffice it to say I used to work in the industry and I'm EPA licensed and know a thing or two about refrigeration.

I did not allow my local Honda dealership to perform service on the air conditioning system because when questioned they do not apply deep vacuum to their high and low side service hoses on their automated refrigeration dummy machine prior to attaching the service valve connector and opening it to the vehicle's system, which introduces a few cubic inches of non-condensable air into the system, reducing performance. The service connections should be attached without opening the schaeder fitting, a deep vacuum applied to the manifold, isolated, and the central charging hose left slightly loose to allow a de minimus release of refrigerant and purging air out of the line when the suction side is opened to prevent introduction of air into the system. I am fortunate enough to be able to buy commercially by the ounce by "buying" the 20-pound cylinder and charged by the cylinder return weight.

My truck needed 2.2 ounces of refrigerant to match compressor condensation pressure to ambient temperature. Because I had a Fluke meter with a thermocouple in the vent, idling in the driveway with the fan 2/3rds, I continued to add refrigerant by the tenth ounce until the vent temperature bottomed out. 2.8 ounces total.

Typically, recommended charge weight is a starting point for competent technicians to add small amounts above static charge weight while the system is running to a proper compressed gas condensation pressure based on ambient temperature moving over the condensing coil. I'm convinced, given the exorbitant cost of R-1234yf refrigerant compared to R-134a (that the EPA have decided to regulate out of existence)-- I'm convinced Honda is shorting each vehicle off the line of a few ounces of this refrigerant... which at $120 per pound (my commercial price), represents a huge sum taken from the consumer.

Honda moved 52,001 Ridgelines in 2023 and stands to sell more this year. At 52,001 vehicles, shorting each vehicle by a single ounce of refrigerant amounts to an approximate $390,000 cost savings for Honda.

The placards on our trucks have a recommended static charge weight of 0.655 kilograms of R-1234yf, with a minimum system charge weight of 0.605 kg. Recommended charge weight is 23.1 ounces, or 1 pound 7.1 ounces total charge, with a minimum charge weight of 21.3 ounces, or 1 pound 5.3 ounces.

Minimum charge weight? Huh? I've never heard of such sorcery. I've worked on massive industrial chillers in hospitals and data centers on down to automotive systems, and I've only ever seen manufacturers affix a designed system charge weight... not a recommended and legally convenient minimum charge weight that allows Honda an out for deliberately reducing the thermal performance of their A/C system by charging the vehicles to this "minimum" weight which keeps the oil circulating to the compressor and does sorta cool off the cabin.

Honda is shorting trucks off the assembly line by 1.8 ounces to provide minimum functional performance and oil circulation and thus skimping on the purchase of 5,850 pounds of refrigerant, at an approximate cost savings of $702,000. Granted, I ended up increasing my system's charge by 2.8 ounces to maximize performance of the system, but I was achieving temps in the mid 40's at the vent prior to that.

I would really like to hear from Honda about this. The $25 in refrigerant I used to get my system working to an acceptable level is not something that will break my finances, but it's just one more little pain in the backside for a vehicle that was over $47K out the door and I'm making payments on for another 2 years.
 
#2 ·
⬆ Great explanation.

I doubt Honda would respond to your inquiry. However, this certainly might get traction from a major news outlet. Might be worth the effort to have them delve into it and call them out.
 
#3 ·
Interesting.......My Rivian R1T was recently recalled because the HVAC system was overfilled and could cause problems. I had it in the shop less than a week after the recall and I was told that it was drained and refilled to the correct level. My R1T is just turning 6 months old.
 
#4 ·
$700,000 is a rounding error to a company the size of Honda. I installed my own aftermarket A/C in the car in my avatar and used the modern refrigerant after evacuation. The nozzle temps were 40* on a hot Florida day idling in my garage and I only charged to the recommended weight.
I live near Orlando and the Ridgeline did just fine in nearly 100 degrees and killer humidity but it DOES take a while to get going.
Image

Image
 
#6 · (Edited)
Oustanding analysis and write-up! I was not aware of any of this, especially the phase-out of R-134a. Wasn't that supposed to be the new planet-saving gas when the EPA earlier decided to outlaw R-12? I rememeber my dad's '67 Polara with the Chrysler AirTemp two-piston rotary compressor running R-12. He'd crank it up and you could hang meat inside that car on the hottest day!
 
#7 ·
My AC is fantastic, as are the AC on many other RLs. Yes, you hear some complaints here, but this is where people come to complain. If forum members were an accurate distribution of actual Ridgeline owners, then the vast majority of 6 speed transmissions have failed, most have water leaks, and all the radios sound horrible. But that's not the case. To say that the shortage is saving them X dollars and it's affecting every vehicle is not accurate. Maybe some were not filled properly, but the majority function just fine. The idea that they're going to intentionally under-fill and have to deal with thousands of warranty repairs just to save less than a million dollars is ridiculous. Maybe there was some sloppiness on the production line, but I doubt that this is some conspiracy to save what is a small amount to Honda.
 
Discussion starter · #9 · (Edited by Moderator)
fdeno said:
$700,000 is a rounding error to a company the size of Honda. I installed my own aftermarket A/C in the car in my avatar and used the modern refrigerant after evacuation. The nozzle temps were 40* on a hot Florida day idling in my garage and I only charged to the recommended weight.
I live near Orlando and the Ridgeline did just fine in nearly 100 degrees and killer humidity but it DOES take a while to get going.
View attachment 447164
View attachment 447165
Click to expand...
You admit the RL gets going OK, but it takes a long while. You also don't mention what the vent temps were on that 100 degree high humidity day. Prolonged time to remove load from the system is indicative that the system is undercharged, the metering device (TXV in this case) is not opening adequately, or there is insufficient airflow over the condenser, or a combination of the three. Given my findings, I suspect undercharging, as R-1234yf tends to be quite sensitive to undercharged conditions and gas remaining in the condensed liquid column prior to the evaporator.

My numbers were based ONLY on the Ridgeline units sold in 2023. Honda moved 1,308,186 new units across all its sales in 2023.

At 2 ounces refrigerant each, you're looking at 163,523 pounds of refrigerant shorted from vehicles, or $19,622,790.

That's not a rounding error, and with the number of people who have reported bad AC performance, I suspect it is just too tempting for auto manufacturers to engage in this sort of coin clipping given the place the federal government has put them in.
 
Discussion starter · #11 ·
M12LRV said:
Oustanding analysis and write-up! I was not aware of any of this, especially the phase-out of R-134a. Wasnt that supposed to be the new planet-savign gas when the EPA earlier decided to outlaw R-12? I rememeber my dad's '67 Polara with the Chrysler AirTemp two-piston rotary compressor running R-12. He'd crank it up and you could hang meat inside that car on the hottest day!
Click to expand...
I run a mixture of propane and isobutane in my old Mercedes 300D turbodiesel... has nearly identical latent heat of evaporation and condensation glide slopes as R-12. Yeah, I have a bottle of old Genetron-12 (name branded R-12) kicking around, but two pounds of propane hardly represents an explosion hazard in a sound and serviced AC system in a vehicle with no spark ignition system.
 
#12 ·
KingOfAllGoys said:
You admit the RL gets going OK, but it takes a long while. You also don't mention what the vent temps were on that 100 degree high humidity day. Prolonged time to remove load from the system is indicative that the system is undercharged, the metering device (TXV in this case) is not opening adequately, or there is insufficient airflow over the condenser, or a combination of the three. Given my findings, I suspect undercharging, as R-1234yf tends to be quite sensitive to undercharged conditions and gas remaining in the condensed liquid column prior to the evaporator.

My numbers were based ONLY on the Ridgeline units sold in 2023. Honda moved 1,308,186 new units across all its sales in 2023.

At 2 ounces refrigerant each, you're looking at 163,523 pounds of refrigerant shorted from vehicles, or $19,622,790.

That's not a rounding error, and with the number of people who have reported bad AC performance, I suspect it is just too tempting for auto manufacturers to engage in this sort of coin clipping given the place the commies in the federal government have put them in.
Click to expand...
Agreed it is not a rounding error. And auto manufacturers are famous for cheaping out on things like OEM tires to save a dollar or two per vehicle. Like Ford with Firestone putting cheapo tires on Explorers.
 
#13 ·
M12LRV said:
Oustanding analysis and write-up! I was not aware of any of this, especially the phase-out of R-134a. Wasn't that supposed to be the new planet-saving gas when the EPA earlier decided to outlaw R-12? I rememeber my dad's '67 Polara with the Chrysler AirTemp two-piston rotary compressor running R-12. He'd crank it up and you could hang meat inside that car on the hottest day!
Click to expand...
Agreed, great white paper on the subject. Careful a/c system maintenance is essential. The evolutionary change of refrigerants for environmental reasons has made a huge positive impact. We seem to have reversed the growth of the ozone hole. Science works.
 
Discussion starter · #14 ·
labradragon said:
Agreed, great white paper on the subject. Careful a/c system maintenance is essential. The evolutionary change of refrigerants for environmental reasons has made a huge positive impact. We seem to have reversed the growth of the ozone hole. Science works.
Click to expand...
Yes and no. CFC’s, despite their ozone-depleting nature, were chemically reactive enough in the atmosphere to eventually break down into smaller, more benign molecules. HCFC’s like R-22 sought to reduce ozone depletion, but they too would react with ozone. HFC’s solved the ozone problem, but at the expense of very high global warming potential and molecular chemical stability that makes them permanent additions to the atmosphere.

I in camp hydrocarbon, and camp Chloroflourocarbon.

The real problem with CFC refrigerants was a combination of inexpensive manufacture cost, widespread availability with no licensing or traceability, zero enforcement by governing bodies that are tasked with enforcing the Montreal Protocol, and those factors making it too easy to just top-off leaking equipment rather than repair it and make it tight. Tossing a 20 pound cylinder at a rooftop unit every month was a lot less expensive than a repair. Hell, even at $2000 a month, it can be cheaper than calling for service.

If people approached mechanical repair in an orderly and avoiding a half assed approach, CFC’s are the most energy efficient option.
 
#15 ·
labradragon said:
Agreed, great white paper on the subject. Careful a/c system maintenance is essential. The evolutionary change of refrigerants for environmental reasons has made a huge positive impact. We seem to have reversed the growth of the ozone hole. Science works.
Click to expand...
Agree with @KingOfAllGoys; camp hydrocarbon & camp chlorofluorocarbon. It doesn't make environmental or economic sense to use less efficient refrigerants for change-of-state cooling and heating applications.

Correct me if I'm wrong (it's difficult to find actual, objective scientific information on the internet among all the politicized "science" propaganda), but my understanding of the ozone cycle in the stratosphere is that upper-atmosphere ozone is formed naturally by two mechanisms: 1) electrical discharges in the atmosphere (lightning) and 2) by absorbtion of UV rays from the sun such that 3O2 → 2O3 (three O2 molecules become two O3 molecules). Thus, they protect from UV by absorption of the energy during this chemical conversion of O2 into O3. Once formed, the O3 ozone molecules deflect UV rays back into space, because they cannot / do not absorb them in any further chemical process. Between the two natural formation mechanisms, I understand sunlight is the dominant source of ozone creation. When the earth's north and south poles tilt away from the sun in their respective winters, the "hole in the ozone layer" increases in size over the poles as natural ozone production diminishes due to the reduction of sunlight at the poles, and when they tilt back toward the sun in their respective summers, natural ozone production increases with the return of sunlight and the "hole in the ozone layer" decreases in size. This is a completely natural process. At no point in the winter/summer cycle of decreasing and increasing of ozone over the poles, is there a depletion of the ozone layer over the populated middle lattitudes that receive year-round sunshine.
 
#17 · (Edited)
ClayTech said:
My AC is fantastic, as are the AC on many other RLs. Yes, you hear some complaints here, but this is where people come to complain. If forum members were an accurate distribution of actual Ridgeline owners, then the vast majority of 6 speed transmissions have failed, most have water leaks, and all the radios sound horrible. But that's not the case. To say that the shortage is saving them X dollars and it's affecting every vehicle is not accurate. Maybe some were not filled properly, but the majority function just fine. The idea that they're going to intentionally under-fill and have to deal with thousands of warranty repairs just to save less than a million dollars is ridiculous. Maybe there was some sloppiness on the production line, but I doubt that this is some conspiracy to save what is a small amount to Honda.
Click to expand...
Image



Thank you oh so much ClayTech for inputting some common sense into this conversation! (y)

Bill
 
#18 ·
M12LRV said:
Agree with @KingOfAllGoys; camp hydrocarbon & camp chlorofluorocarbon. It doesn't make environmental or economic sense to use less efficient refrigerants for change-of-state cooling and heating applications.

Correct me if I'm wrong (it's difficult to find actual, objective scientific information on the internet among all the politicized "science" propaganda), but my understanding of the ozone cycle in the stratosphere is that upper-atmosphere ozone is formed naturally by two mechanisms: 1) electrical discharges in the atmosphere (lightning) and 2) by absorbtion of UV rays from the sun such that 3O2 → 2O3 (three O2 molecules become two O3 molecules). Thus, they protect from UV by absorption of the energy during this chemical conversion of O2 into O3. Once formed, the O3 ozone molecules deflect UV rays back into space, because they cannot / do not absorb them in any further chemical process. Between the two natural formation mechanisms, I understand sunlight is the dominant source of ozone creation. When the earth's north and south poles tilt away from the sun in their respective winters, the "hole in the ozone layer" increases in size over the poles as natural ozone production diminishes due to the reduction of sunlight at the poles, and when they tilt back toward the sun in their respective summers, natural ozone production increases with the return of sunlight and the "hole in the ozone layer" decreases in size. This is a completely natural process. At no point in the winter/summer cycle of decreasing and increasing of ozone over the poles, is there a depletion of the ozone layer over the populated middle lattitudes that receive year-round sunshine.
Click to expand...
There is also a lot of anti-science 'propaganda'
 
#20 ·
KingOfAllGoys said:
Yes and no. CFC’s, despite their ozone-depleting nature, were chemically reactive enough in the atmosphere to eventually break down into smaller, more benign molecules. HCFC’s like R-22 sought to reduce ozone depletion, but they too would react with ozone. HFC’s solved the ozone problem, but at the expense of very high global warming potential and molecular chemical stability that makes them permanent additions to the atmosphere.

I in camp hydrocarbon, and camp Chloroflourocarbon.

The real problem with CFC refrigerants was a combination of inexpensive manufacture cost, widespread availability with no licensing or traceability, zero enforcement by governing bodies that are tasked with enforcing the Montreal Protocol, and those factors making it too easy to just top-off leaking equipment rather than repair it and make it tight. Tossing a 20 pound cylinder at a rooftop unit every month was a lot less expensive than a repair. Hell, even at $2000 a month, it can be cheaper than calling for service.

If people approached mechanical repair in an orderly and avoiding a half assed approach, CFC’s are the most energy efficient option.
Click to expand...
Agreed that If people approached mechanical repair in an orderly and avoiding a half assed approach, CFC’s are the most energy efficient option. But the reality, as you point out, is that people do not. So refrigerants do need to evolve to suit real world operation. And concurrently we need to do everything we can to encourage proper HVAC maintenance in vehicles and in buildings; at a much higher level of average competence than we see today.
 
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