I decided to take advantage of GM's 60 Day Satisfaction Guarantee on my new Silverado. The administrator of GM's program (cynoSure) said I didn't qualify because I took a $500 incentive in lieu of the guarantee, which I do not recall. Upon receiving a faxed copy of the waiver, I was appalled to see that my name had been forged by the dealer on the waiver! I called CS back and advised the reason I was unfamiliar with this document is because I never saw it - let alone signed it. They requested I fax a copy of my sales contract, which I did. A few hours later they called back stating they could not honor the guarantee because they were informed I took the rebate instead and advised I take the issue up with the selling dealer, even though the signatures obviously did not match (CS's words). I called the dealer's general manager and explained the situation to him. He seemed slightly sympathetic/interested/concerned and said he would contact the dealer (he was at another dealer in his network at the time) and pull the file and call me back. I'm [im]patiently waiting the result...
GM's 60-day Satisfaction Guarantee...or not...
zroger73
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I decided to take advantage of GM's 60 Day Satisfaction Guarantee on my new Silverado. The administrator of GM's program (cynoSure) said I didn't qualify because I took a $500 incentive in lieu of the guarantee, which I do not recall. Upon receiving a faxed copy of the waiver, I was appalled to see that my name had been forged by the dealer on the waiver! I called CS back and advised the reason I was unfamiliar with this document is because I never saw it - let alone signed it. They requested I fax a copy of my sales contract, which I did. A few hours later they called back stating they could not honor the guarantee because they were informed I took the rebate instead and advised I take the issue up with the selling dealer, even though the signatures obviously did not match (CS's words). I called the dealer's general manager and explained the situation to him. He seemed slightly sympathetic/interested/concerned and said he would contact the dealer (he was at another dealer in his network at the time) and pull the file and call me back. I'm [im]patiently waiting the result...
Does the $500 show as a credit anywhere on your sales contract (or on anything else)?
Forgery suggests the possibility that the dealer may have pocketed the money.
Several things come to mind (and or all should be done immediately):
1) Contact your state attorney general;
2) File a police report;
3) Contact the media - somebody may like this story;
4) Hire a lawyer
5) Carry a sign in front of the dealer telling the world that you were defrauded.
Forgery suggests the possibility that the dealer may have pocketed the money.
Several things come to mind (and or all should be done immediately):
1) Contact your state attorney general;
2) File a police report;
3) Contact the media - somebody may like this story;
4) Hire a lawyer
5) Carry a sign in front of the dealer telling the world that you were defrauded.
Your in for a fight !!!!! Knuckle Up !!!!
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Nothing on the actual sales order or installment contract refers specifically to this $500 "incentive" in lieu of the guarantee. Today was the first time I saw anything about accepting $500 instead of the guarantee - and this was on the document that contained my forged signature. A box on this form was checked that indicates that I accepted a $500 rebate in place of the guarantee. The problem is that I was never informed of this document or given the opportunity to decide which option I preferred. I never signed this document. Someone else forged my signature. Close attention to the signature reveals similar handwriting characteristics to the employee whose signature appears on various paperwork. The proof is in the paperwork and it's completely obvious what they did.
UPDATE: General manager just called me back. He said he had the dealer fax him a copy of the paperwork, but he claims he "couldn't tell anything from the fax". He said he would visit the selling dealer in the morning and research the issue in person and would contact me then to "see what they could do". I suspect they may be working on an excuse to cover their tracks.
UPDATE: General manager just called me back. He said he had the dealer fax him a copy of the paperwork, but he claims he "couldn't tell anything from the fax". He said he would visit the selling dealer in the morning and research the issue in person and would contact me then to "see what they could do". I suspect they may be working on an excuse to cover their tracks.
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Knuckle up and prepare to fight. This sounds like another cause of a bogus "deal", and they figure if they make it hard enough for you that you'll go away. :act047:
File a police report for the forgery and make a complaint with your state's Dept of Consumer Affairs and Dept of Motor Vehicles, which licenses dealers. Also make a complaint to your state's Attorney General's office. Don't take their excuses. Forgery is a CRIME!!! JMHO
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Or better yet, call your congressman! Since the feds are now the major stockholder the congressman may have some clout!!
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5,565 Posts
I would add theft by deception to the list of possible charges that Joe mentioned.
Texas has some funky laws that don't conform to most of the rest of the US of A. For instance, a theft of goods or services in Ohio of $500 and over is considered a felony. In Texas, it isn't. It is a class A misdemeanor and that is only if the perp actually breaks the $500 threshold. $499.99 is a class B misdemeanor. Taxation valuation amounts tacked on to a transaction don't count towards the total unless there was an actual dollar amount paid by some party. In other words, tax on the dollar amount of $499 won't take you from a class B to a class A level.
In any case, I would tend to believe that this is not the 1st time that this has happened. If this was my baby, I would tell the dealer that I was going to talk to a law firm that specializes in class action lawsuits. If the law firm can win your case and then use your case to qualify a class, it might put the dealership in a position would severely impede their ability to do business or even force them to close the doors.
I'm not a lawsuit freak or someone who likes to see anyone get the screws put for them for even a non malicious impingement of the law but to me this is blatant and shows malicious intent and needs to be addressed before countless others are victimized.
Disclaimer: Again, I'm not a barred attorney in the Great State of Texas nor have I stayed at a Holiday Inn lately and I have never had the occasion to guest star on LA Law. Please do not consider this as legal advice.
Here is some general info on criminal and civil penalties in Texas if anyone is interested.
Penalties for Theft
Amount Classification Penalties
Less than $50, or less than $20 if by check
Class C misdemeanor
A fine of not more than $500
$50 or more but less than $500, or $20 or more but less than $500 if by check
Class B misdemeanor
Not more than 180 days in a county jail and/or a fine of not more than $2,000
$500 or more but less than $1,500
Class A misdemeanor
Not more than 1 year in a county jail and/or a fine of not more than $4,000
$1,500 or
more but less than $20,000
State jail felony
180 days to 2 years in a state jail and/or a fine of not more than $10,000
$20,000 or more but less than $100,000
Third-degree felony
2 to 10 years in a state prison and/or a fine of not more than $10,000
$100,000 or more but less than $200,000
Second-degree felony
2 to 20 years in a state prison and/or a fine of not more than $10,000
$200,000 or more
First-degree felony
5 to 99 years in a state prison and/or a fine of not more than $10,000
Those punishments can also be enhanced under certain conditions. For example, Class B and C misdemeanor theft charges increase one level if you have a previous theft conviction, and a Class A misdemeanor becomes a state jail felony if you have two previous theft convictions.
Also, the theft of some items such as firearms or metals such as copper or aluminum are felonies no matter the actual value.
Shoplifting charges also automatically become more serious if you are caught using tools to defeat theft prevention devices, or if you are charged with organized retail theft, meaning you were working with others to steal items for profit.
However, in all likelihood, if you are charged with simple theft by shoplifting and are convicted or enter a plea, you probably will receive only community service and fines, as long as the value is low and it’s a first or second offense. However, you are still stuck with a permanent criminal record which may never go away.
The fact of a permanent, public criminal record is the reason why most people hire a shoplifting defense attorney to fight the charges. Avoiding a criminal record in the internet age can save you tremendous headaches in the future. It could prevent you from getting a job, a scholarship, or worse.
Civil Penalties for Shoplifting
The criminal shoplifting record for a conviction might not be the end of it, either.
A conviction for the criminal charge of theft frequently includes restitution to the victim, but Texas also has the Texas Theft Liability Act. This civil law allows the victims of theft to sue for damages and is separate from the criminal case.
The suits are typically used in shoplifting cases. The store will send you a letter demanding that you pay the value of the stolen item, as well as costs related to recovery. The law allows the victim to collect actual damages, plus up to $1,000 against an individual or actual damages, plus up to $5,000 against the parents or guardians if the accused shoplifter is a minor.
You should not try to face either the criminal charge of theft or a civil suit in a shoplifting case without consulting a Texas criminal defense lawyer who knows how to defend shoplifting/theft offenses. We can fight the case against you by challenging the reliability of eyewitness or accomplice testimony, and by questioning the legality of any searches by police or admissions you may have made to them.
Texas has some funky laws that don't conform to most of the rest of the US of A. For instance, a theft of goods or services in Ohio of $500 and over is considered a felony. In Texas, it isn't. It is a class A misdemeanor and that is only if the perp actually breaks the $500 threshold. $499.99 is a class B misdemeanor. Taxation valuation amounts tacked on to a transaction don't count towards the total unless there was an actual dollar amount paid by some party. In other words, tax on the dollar amount of $499 won't take you from a class B to a class A level.
In any case, I would tend to believe that this is not the 1st time that this has happened. If this was my baby, I would tell the dealer that I was going to talk to a law firm that specializes in class action lawsuits. If the law firm can win your case and then use your case to qualify a class, it might put the dealership in a position would severely impede their ability to do business or even force them to close the doors.
I'm not a lawsuit freak or someone who likes to see anyone get the screws put for them for even a non malicious impingement of the law but to me this is blatant and shows malicious intent and needs to be addressed before countless others are victimized.
Disclaimer: Again, I'm not a barred attorney in the Great State of Texas nor have I stayed at a Holiday Inn lately and I have never had the occasion to guest star on LA Law. Please do not consider this as legal advice.
Here is some general info on criminal and civil penalties in Texas if anyone is interested.
Penalties for Theft
Amount Classification Penalties
Less than $50, or less than $20 if by check
Class C misdemeanor
A fine of not more than $500
$50 or more but less than $500, or $20 or more but less than $500 if by check
Class B misdemeanor
Not more than 180 days in a county jail and/or a fine of not more than $2,000
$500 or more but less than $1,500
Class A misdemeanor
Not more than 1 year in a county jail and/or a fine of not more than $4,000
$1,500 or
more but less than $20,000
State jail felony
180 days to 2 years in a state jail and/or a fine of not more than $10,000
$20,000 or more but less than $100,000
Third-degree felony
2 to 10 years in a state prison and/or a fine of not more than $10,000
$100,000 or more but less than $200,000
Second-degree felony
2 to 20 years in a state prison and/or a fine of not more than $10,000
$200,000 or more
First-degree felony
5 to 99 years in a state prison and/or a fine of not more than $10,000
Those punishments can also be enhanced under certain conditions. For example, Class B and C misdemeanor theft charges increase one level if you have a previous theft conviction, and a Class A misdemeanor becomes a state jail felony if you have two previous theft convictions.
Also, the theft of some items such as firearms or metals such as copper or aluminum are felonies no matter the actual value.
Shoplifting charges also automatically become more serious if you are caught using tools to defeat theft prevention devices, or if you are charged with organized retail theft, meaning you were working with others to steal items for profit.
However, in all likelihood, if you are charged with simple theft by shoplifting and are convicted or enter a plea, you probably will receive only community service and fines, as long as the value is low and it’s a first or second offense. However, you are still stuck with a permanent criminal record which may never go away.
The fact of a permanent, public criminal record is the reason why most people hire a shoplifting defense attorney to fight the charges. Avoiding a criminal record in the internet age can save you tremendous headaches in the future. It could prevent you from getting a job, a scholarship, or worse.
Civil Penalties for Shoplifting
The criminal shoplifting record for a conviction might not be the end of it, either.
A conviction for the criminal charge of theft frequently includes restitution to the victim, but Texas also has the Texas Theft Liability Act. This civil law allows the victims of theft to sue for damages and is separate from the criminal case.
The suits are typically used in shoplifting cases. The store will send you a letter demanding that you pay the value of the stolen item, as well as costs related to recovery. The law allows the victim to collect actual damages, plus up to $1,000 against an individual or actual damages, plus up to $5,000 against the parents or guardians if the accused shoplifter is a minor.
You should not try to face either the criminal charge of theft or a civil suit in a shoplifting case without consulting a Texas criminal defense lawyer who knows how to defend shoplifting/theft offenses. We can fight the case against you by challenging the reliability of eyewitness or accomplice testimony, and by questioning the legality of any searches by police or admissions you may have made to them.
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959 Posts
I wouldn't give the general manager anymore time to try and cover this up. I'd call him back and let him know he has until the end of the day to try and resolve this problem. Let him know that they committed a crime and your ready to contact the police, the BBB and a lawyer!
Not sure of your local laws, but the crime really pertains to the purchase of a car, which makes it more than just a $500.00 misdemeanor.
Not sure of your local laws, but the crime really pertains to the purchase of a car, which makes it more than just a $500.00 misdemeanor.
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2,647 Posts
In my neck of the woods, it is illegal to issue such a threat, making a gain from threatening to report a crime. You either drop the issue or report the crime. You can still take civil action on top of that, but you cannot gain from the threat of criminal proceedings. It's up to law enforcement whether the criminal part is actionable. I'd just go ahead and present the evidence to police.
From the article below it appears this policy is "neither simple nor uncomplicated." Customer's buyback price does not include anything else. such as:any other taxes, licensing, titling or registration fees, insurance, accessories, dealer fees, extended warranties, finance charges, negative equity or any other expenses incurred by the customer at the time of taking delivery of the new vehicle. . It appears that GM really does all they can to discourage customers from taking advantage of this guarantee.
_____________________________________________________________
60-Day General Motors Car Return Policy Offer
Satisfaction Guarantee New GM Offer for Buick, Chevy, Cadillac, GMC
Sep 18, 2009 Donald Reinhardt
Getting a new car at little or no risk with a 60-day return policy for cars driven under 4000 miles is a deal some will consider seriously. Price negotiation is critical.
If someone missed "Cash for Clunkers" because they had no trade-in car, or just were not ready for a new one before, this recent offer might work for that person. Read carefully and think carefully when considering any incentive program.
60-Day GM Satisfaction Guarantee, How It Works Overall
The purchaser signs a contract to buy any one of the qualified four, 2009 or 2010, GM car makes. Medium-duty trucks do not qualify.
•Take delivery by 11/30/09.
•After purchase of a new Chevy, Buick, GMC or Cadillac, retain car for a minimum of 30 days.
•After 30 days, you have 30 more days to return it to the dealer (i.e. 31 through 60-day, maximum, total use).
•If returned the purchaser gets the actual price paid to the participating dealer, less any rebates plus applicable sales tax.
•GM Employees are eligible.
•Business, Corporation, Fleet Sales are not eligible.
GM Satisfaction Guarantee Limitations and Restrictions
Remember to pay attention to the additional details.
•Purchaser must keep the car for a minimum of 30 days, and not more than 60 days.
•Car must have less than 4000 miles on the odometer when returned.
•Delivery must be taken no later than 11/30/09.
•Other offers may exclude this offer. $500 rebate available, instead of this offer.
•Customer receives the purchase price of the vehicle itself (after any rebates, discounts, plus applicable sales taxes that were actually paid). Customer's buyback price does not include anything else. such as:any other taxes, licensing, titling or registration fees, insurance, accessories, dealer fees, extended warranties, finance charges, negative equity or any other expenses incurred by the customer at the time of taking delivery of the new vehicle.
•Normal wear and tear is acceptable, and total damages under $200 are covered. Damages $200 or greater void the program return – even if repair has been made.
GM Satisfaction Guarantee, Other Important Restrictions and Limitations
There are some additional, important restrictions and limitations to pay attention to:
•Customer must return the vehicle to the original selling/participating dealer. Also, the customer must contact the administrator of the program and submit required documentation. The administrator will review and verify the documentation requirement and the customer will be contacted and directed to the selling dealer to have the vehicle appraised.
•Required documentation will be important and is indicated as follows: a fully completed Request for Benefit form (provided by the administrator) plus the customer must provide: A) A copy of the Bill of Sale, Retail Installment Sale Contract or other transaction documentation; B) A copy of the customer's Driver's License; C) A copy of the Registration showing the vehicle is registered in the customer's name; D) Proof of Insurance verifying the eligible Vehicle was insured since the delivery date; and E) Any other documentation GM or the Administrator may reasonably request.
•If a co-signed contract, only the principal, top-line co-signer, is eligible to return the vehicle.
•If a trade-in vehicle was involved, the trade-in will not be available to be returned to the customer.
•Program Incentive Headquarters operating hours for claim processing are Monday – Saturday 8:00 am to 9:00 pm EST.
Conclusions and Summary
This program is neither simple, nor uncomplicated. Under the right conditions it might benefit some individuals. As with all business ventures only time will tell how well this works for GMC and for customers. A positive, optimistic, attitude for this program would be that it works mutually well for both consumers and GMC.:act060:
_____________________________________________________________
60-Day General Motors Car Return Policy Offer
Satisfaction Guarantee New GM Offer for Buick, Chevy, Cadillac, GMC
Sep 18, 2009 Donald Reinhardt
Getting a new car at little or no risk with a 60-day return policy for cars driven under 4000 miles is a deal some will consider seriously. Price negotiation is critical.
If someone missed "Cash for Clunkers" because they had no trade-in car, or just were not ready for a new one before, this recent offer might work for that person. Read carefully and think carefully when considering any incentive program.
60-Day GM Satisfaction Guarantee, How It Works Overall
The purchaser signs a contract to buy any one of the qualified four, 2009 or 2010, GM car makes. Medium-duty trucks do not qualify.
•Take delivery by 11/30/09.
•After purchase of a new Chevy, Buick, GMC or Cadillac, retain car for a minimum of 30 days.
•After 30 days, you have 30 more days to return it to the dealer (i.e. 31 through 60-day, maximum, total use).
•If returned the purchaser gets the actual price paid to the participating dealer, less any rebates plus applicable sales tax.
•GM Employees are eligible.
•Business, Corporation, Fleet Sales are not eligible.
GM Satisfaction Guarantee Limitations and Restrictions
Remember to pay attention to the additional details.
•Purchaser must keep the car for a minimum of 30 days, and not more than 60 days.
•Car must have less than 4000 miles on the odometer when returned.
•Delivery must be taken no later than 11/30/09.
•Other offers may exclude this offer. $500 rebate available, instead of this offer.
•Customer receives the purchase price of the vehicle itself (after any rebates, discounts, plus applicable sales taxes that were actually paid). Customer's buyback price does not include anything else. such as:any other taxes, licensing, titling or registration fees, insurance, accessories, dealer fees, extended warranties, finance charges, negative equity or any other expenses incurred by the customer at the time of taking delivery of the new vehicle.
•Normal wear and tear is acceptable, and total damages under $200 are covered. Damages $200 or greater void the program return – even if repair has been made.
GM Satisfaction Guarantee, Other Important Restrictions and Limitations
There are some additional, important restrictions and limitations to pay attention to:
•Customer must return the vehicle to the original selling/participating dealer. Also, the customer must contact the administrator of the program and submit required documentation. The administrator will review and verify the documentation requirement and the customer will be contacted and directed to the selling dealer to have the vehicle appraised.
•Required documentation will be important and is indicated as follows: a fully completed Request for Benefit form (provided by the administrator) plus the customer must provide: A) A copy of the Bill of Sale, Retail Installment Sale Contract or other transaction documentation; B) A copy of the customer's Driver's License; C) A copy of the Registration showing the vehicle is registered in the customer's name; D) Proof of Insurance verifying the eligible Vehicle was insured since the delivery date; and E) Any other documentation GM or the Administrator may reasonably request.
•If a co-signed contract, only the principal, top-line co-signer, is eligible to return the vehicle.
•If a trade-in vehicle was involved, the trade-in will not be available to be returned to the customer.
•Program Incentive Headquarters operating hours for claim processing are Monday – Saturday 8:00 am to 9:00 pm EST.
Conclusions and Summary
This program is neither simple, nor uncomplicated. Under the right conditions it might benefit some individuals. As with all business ventures only time will tell how well this works for GMC and for customers. A positive, optimistic, attitude for this program would be that it works mutually well for both consumers and GMC.:act060:
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1,886 Posts
That does say they will refund sales tax, just not any other tax. I assume sales tax is the biggest bite, though perhaps you have to pay property tax also?
Though, other than perhaps the dates (which we don't know), there doesn't seem to be anything that's hitting the OP other than this forged rebate.
Though...after reading that, I'm now sure the dealer will try to push this beyond 60 days so they're covered that way, then the magical rebate acceptance will disappear. So, if I were OP, I'd push this issue, and soon.
Though, other than perhaps the dates (which we don't know), there doesn't seem to be anything that's hitting the OP other than this forged rebate.
Though...after reading that, I'm now sure the dealer will try to push this beyond 60 days so they're covered that way, then the magical rebate acceptance will disappear. So, if I were OP, I'd push this issue, and soon.
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31,914 Posts
The refund includes actual negotiated price - rebates + sales tax. You lose title, license, registration, and other fees such as "documentary fee" and "dealer inventory tax".
The statement "No refunds of any taxes paid" is not correct.
Since my last post, I have spoken again with one of the dealer's owners a few times. I have also filed a complaint with GM, the BBB, and spoken with a handwriting analyst and a detective at the local police department. The most recent promise by the dealer was to hire a handwriting analyst to analyze the documents. If it is determined the signature is not mine, apologies will be offered and the employee who committed the forgery will be terminated immediately. Presumably, this will include a refund of the vehicle as well.
If the analyst determines the signature is mine, the dealer will likely tell me to hit the road (or not call me back...again). At that time I will file a report with the local police department and pursue legal action.
I wish I could post copies of the paperwork on here. A blind monkey could tell the signature on the 60-day guarantee waiver was not mine. If this handwriting analyst favors the dealer, then he is crazy for putting his 25-year reputation on the line. The dealer tried to avoid giving me the specific name of the handwriting analyst he was hiring, but by accident I discovered who it was while calling around to find one myself.
The next conversation should take place between myself and the dealer by this afternoon.
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31,914 Posts
I'm within speaking distance of the 60-day window. The program administrator for GM, Chevrolet customer service, Better Business Bureau, police department, myself, and the dealer all have dated records indicating I attempted to return the vehicle before the 60-day window expires.
At this point, cynoSure says they have a signed document stating I took a rebate instead of the guarantee, so their hands are tied. The selling dealer stated his employee watched me sign the document (lie) and that since it has already been submitted and processed, he can't undo or reverse the process. The selling dealer even stated that the signatures looked similar after I offered to hire a forensic handwriting analyst and use their testimony in a court of law. Another lie. Immediately before that, he told me he couldn't read the fax and had not had an opportunity to pull my file yet. Naturally, he became defensive when I mentioned "court of law". That's the point he hired a handwriting analyst.
I hope you've learned a valuable lesson.
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31,914 Posts
Life is a constant learning experience. I'm very careful to read and understand every document I sign. I was never presented with the document forged by the dealer, therefore had no opportunity to review it.
Sorry for the misinformation about the sales tax. I changed my post to better reflect the actual refund.
This really irritates me, that the dealer would choose to forge your signature, to invalidate the guarantee. I agree that this may have been done many times over and the dealer/and or salesman, pocketed the rebate.
Hope all turns out okay for you and keep us posted.
We have a great consumer advocate here in Colorado, Tom Martino, who would be on this so fast, the dealership would never sell another car. He used to be on the radio in the Texas area, but I no longer think he is.
This really irritates me, that the dealer would choose to forge your signature, to invalidate the guarantee. I agree that this may have been done many times over and the dealer/and or salesman, pocketed the rebate.
Hope all turns out okay for you and keep us posted.
We have a great consumer advocate here in Colorado, Tom Martino, who would be on this so fast, the dealership would never sell another car. He used to be on the radio in the Texas area, but I no longer think he is.
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