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Ok, maybe some or most of you haven't changed the Radiator. I have 2 times in 18 months. The first was "the" Honda OEM Radiator failure, the second was a failure of the replacement part due, at least I believe in part to poor shipping/handling by UPS/Amazon & Spectra Radiator packaging. http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1597706&postcount=56

Now do I believe my CSF Radiator has resolved the issue, possibly, but I'm not taking one apart or "reverse engineering" it to determine if they have "changed" from the corrosion prone "belleville washer"

Now on to the "Bypassing the internal cooler" Since my '06 has no OBD2 output for the transmission temp(that I know of), I cannot monitor temp of my ATF. This being said, the Transmission fluid comes out of the Trans, into a hose, into a hard line on the bottom of the outside lower radiator, into a hose, thru the fitting for the internal cooler, thru the cooler on the lower radiator tank out of the lower tank into a hose, to a hard connection to the trans cooler infront of the radiator to another hose which goes into the transmission. The only part of this which I don't know is the "flow" direction. Maybe someone with a SM has that, I'm unsure.
 
Sorry if I confused the issue by suggesting the addition of 'another' cooler. It is likely not necessary, and I support simply bypassing the radiator and connecting the hose ends together.
 
Ok, maybe some or most of you haven't changed the Radiator. I have 2 times in 18 months. The first was "the" Honda OEM Radiator failure, the second was a failure of the replacement part due, at least I believe in part to poor shipping/handling by UPS/Amazon & Spectra Radiator packaging. http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1597706&postcount=56

Now do I believe my CSF Radiator has resolved the issue, possibly, but I'm not taking one apart or "reverse engineering" it to determine if they have "changed" from the corrosion prone "belleville washer"

Now on to the "Bypassing the internal cooler" Since my '06 has no OBD2 output for the transmission temp(that I know of), I cannot monitor temp of my ATF. This being said, the Transmission fluid comes out of the Trans, into a hose, into a hard line on the bottom of the outside lower radiator, into a hose, thru the fitting for the internal cooler, thru the cooler on the lower radiator tank out of the lower tank into a hose, to a hard connection to the trans cooler infront of the radiator to another hose which goes into the transmission. The only part of this which I don't know is the "flow" direction. Maybe someone with a SM has that, I'm unsure.
Did your OEM radiator fail or were you premptively replacing it? Why do you think most of us haven't replaced our own radiators?? I changed my radiator out with aftermarket. After an accident the repair shop installed an OEM one. I figure if I still have the truck in another 4 years I will replace the OEM one again.
 
IMO its not worth the effort. I have done aftermarket trans coolers on several cars/trucks but it was because they needed them, either they were high performance cars or trucks that towed a lot and need extra cooling especially in the 90+ temps we have 6 months out of the yr here in FL. In the RL's case the added cooler is not needed so why do it? While yes some do fail so do some aftermarket coolers. The cost of the cooler, new lines and clamps would easily put you at the cost of a new spectra radiator which BTW amazon has right now for $139 and would be a much easier swap.

Also as most stated already getting the fluid up to temp is part of the exchangers purpose. If your in a cold climate your fluid may never get up to temp which can lead to all kinds of problems. Generally if you need a aftermarket cooler in a cold climate you would still run an aftermarket cooler thru the factory exchanger to help raise fluid temp in the cold months. Which in the RL's case this would defeat the purpose of the OP. In a warm climate such as here in FL I have always just ran it direct to the aftermarket cooler and left out the factory exchanger and never had any trouble but were rarely see temps below 30.

If you were to do this I would highly recommend running all new lines from the tranny to new cooler and back. I would not just add a connection to the factory lines and add hose to get it too and from the new cooler. The less connections the better, most failure on aftermarket cooler are either added connections or clamp failure
 
Did your OEM radiator fail or were you premptively replacing it? Why do you think most of us haven't replaced our own radiators?? I changed my radiator out with aftermarket. After an accident the repair shop installed an OEM one. I figure if I still have the truck in another 4 years I will replace the OEM one again.
Premptive Replacement: Through Fluid Analysis, I determined that ATF was in the Coolant and Coolant was in the ATF. If you look at the pics I posted a few months back, you'd see that my fittings look "OK"

http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1637810&postcount=225
http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1640402&postcount=232
 
In the same regard that 10 qts of trans fluid might not warm as quickly as engine coolant, the benefits of the WEENY trans radiator inside the engine rad pail in comparison to the damage caused by a nearly unpredictable failure.

Air cooling is much less efficient than liquid cooling. That little "WEENY" heat exchanger is immersed in coolant and will exchange heat effectively.
 
Discussion starter · #27 ·
Pardon me while I step up to my soap box...

The short answer is YES, it’s a design flaw on Honda's part - IMO. I maintain that position based on two realities.

First, the failure mode in question is rooted in well-known, naturally occurring phenomena. Setting aside other (BETTER) aspects of design and implementation, a different choice of material at the mechanical interface of the radiator "could have" resolved this serious – easily avoided galvanic corrosion issue. Perhaps a composite material stable enough to operate in the target environment, or if identical metallurgy in-between and on both sides of the interface were used, this issue would not exist. OEMs are not in the business of building products beyond a limited target reliability range. I would suggest that Honda considered many options - but didn't change direction because anything more than their chosen design wasn’t cost effective and was determined to be… "good enough".

In this case good enough likely meant service life near double the warranty period is plenty good. A certain failure % - both in and out of warranty - are calculated risks to any brand name, so if a "small %" of owners suffer a catastrophic failure during ownership, that's just part of doing business. Since I'm on the receiving end of those BUSINESS decisions, I choose to address them with more seriousness than bean counters do - and seek ways to totally eliminate the possibility of cross contamination of vital fluids - without impacting other serious reliability concerns.

Second, implementation of accepted/conventional designs such as a trans heat exchanger buried inside an engine heat exchanger, doesn’t dismiss the opportunity to innovate. Could Honda accomplish the same thing in a way that avoids a failure allowing coolant and trans fluid to contaminate one another? ABSOLUTELY they could have. Obviously, the "pre-heat" exchanger could have been plumbed in an entirely different way that eliminates all possibility of fluid contamination. I'm positive they considered many alternatives to the final design - I'm equally positive those alternatives were considered cost prohibitive for the overall reliability targets imposed by budget constraints.

In the same way OEMs of internal combustion engines have varying reliability resulting from their implementation decisions - accepted and conventional designs have tons of variables when budgets and target pricing rule the roost. Honda's choice have cost some owners big dollars and inconvenience.

Virtually every product, whether physical or software, has "known bugs" at the time of release to market. Those bugs are addressed and resolved in the aftermarket sector as well as on-going improvements by an OEM - but an OEM has other reasons to invest in those improvements - and almost none of them have to do with improving the user experience - unless of course - there’s risk to the brand name reputation in the marketplace.

Generally speaking, OEM's do a great job of achieving balance in the final product within a price target. As many positive attributes as there are with the RL, this particular short coming is too severe for my personal level of acceptance. "Opinions of others" do have value in the real world and in the context of this issue, there is more than one solution. While it could be argued 3, 5 or 7 year service life with the OEM rad is sufficient, the potential for catastrophe must be calculated by each owner. I'm confident the proposed solution solves the problem – which is 100% elimination of the possibility of fluid contamination and zero impact to engine or trans performance/reliability (in this geographic environment).

As far as “the reported issue being low”, the goal of any proposed solution to an issue is to minimize potential catastrophe. Honda thinks they hit that target when they chose to build the rad/trans cooler as they did, and apparently some forum members agree - but I’d bet real money the folk who took care of their RL’s and saw no signs of trouble yet found themselves on the $h!t end of the stick have a different opinion.

Unknown provenance is the enemy of every used vehicle buyer. Once a new owner of a used RL is aware of this issue - and realizes there is no reliable method to detect a failure that could occur at any time in the future - the only solution becomes preventative maintenance - replacing the rad in a used RL even when it "looks good" and the system operates normally is counter intuitive for some, I imagine. Given the varied experience and quality issues shared by members of this forum, I'm additionally cautious on moving forward with current, off the shelf solutions.

For drivers in this type of climate, I see no downside to this idea. And even in freezing climates, the "damage" caused by flow rates of colder than ideal trans fluid might be less than that of engine lubricant thickened by spending the night at the bottom of a crank case in single digits temps. Obviously, some forum members object to the general idea. Personally, I don’t find fault with questioning certain decisions made by Honda during RL development. Like every OEM, they make a consumer product built for the widest possible range of use scenarios. By definition, that means tradeoffs must be made. This is one of the areas where an OEM tradeoff decision can be remedied without sacrificing reliability in other areas.

But again, that comes from the perspective of almost never having to deal with single digits temperatures.

The 15 year old rad in my 40 year old motor coach gives me confidence with the virtues of an all-aluminum rad. I stuck a scope down its throat about a month ago. She's clean as the day I put her in. <6 Gallons of coolant and distilled water in a closed system works great. BTW: in that application, both engine and trans coolers have pre and post temp sensors and gauges. TMI for some, just right for me as the 100,000 mile 455 Olds/TH425 trans pulls 10,000lbs up long slow grades in the dead of a southern summer. From a service life perspective, an all-aluminum rad would be the last one my RL would ever need - and there is virtually ZERO chance of fluid cross contamination. Problem solved.

As always, to each his own.

Stepping of the box now.
 
Discussion starter · #28 ·
Premptive Replacement: Through Fluid Analysis, I determined that ATF was in the Coolant and Coolant was in the ATF. If you look at the pics I posted a few months back, you'd see that my fittings look "OK"

http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1637810&postcount=225
http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1640402&postcount=232
So sorry you had the issue. Your experience proves the point that fluid contamination is a real concern, even with the visual inspection showing no sign of a recent or pending failure.

A bad implementation by Honda - your photos make it hard to argue otherwise. Did you catch it before damage was done to the trans?
 
Discussion starter · #29 ·
Air cooling is much less efficient than liquid cooling. That little "WEENY" heat exchanger is immersed in coolant and will exchange heat effectively.
As I mentioned, unless everyone I've spoken to from both inside and outside the industry have missed it too, somehow, the benefits of warming transmission fluid to engine coolant temperatures is escaping me.

"pre-heat" kinda sorta makes sense in the lowest temperature extremes - maybe. But transmission fluid temps where it spends nearly 100% of its time should be kept to a minimum. No?
 
So sorry you had the issue. Your experience proves the point that fluid contamination is a real concern, even with the visual inspection showing no sign of a recent or pending failure.

A bad implementation by Honda - your photos make it hard to argue otherwise. Did you catch it before damage was done to the trans?
So far yes, and it was specifically because of fluid testing, (SEE ATTACHED "RL ATF.pdf") visually I'd of driven another 2-3 years, as you know in Southern CA, the only salt is in the air near the beach. And if it's on the roads it because it leaked off a boat/trailer being towed to someone's home. Even in the HD, and the San Bernardino Mountains, they solely use Cinders and/or Sand, when we do get Snow.

As you can see below, we do get snow. That is my Office & My Boss's Truck...
 

Attachments

Discussion starter · #31 · (Edited)
So far yes, and it was specifically because of fluid testing, (SEE ATTACHED "RL ATF.pdf") visually I'd of driven another 2-3 years, as you know in Southern CA, the only salt is in the air near the beach. And if it's on the roads it because it leaked off a boat/trailer being towed to someone's home. Even in the HD, and the San Bernardino Mountains, they solely use Cinders and/or Sand, when we do get Snow.

As you can see below, we do get snow. That is my Office & My Boss's Truck...
So what we have here is photo evidence that could easily be classified as "NTF" down at Joe's Garage. But the fluids passing thru the plumbing in the photos tell an entirely different story. You're the first forum member I've seen post actual lab results.

I hope the problem was caught in time.

Thanks
 
Taking a step back here for a moment.

Oh,

If you want to generate interest a "group buy" for a high quality aftermarket radiator then you probably don't wan't to eliminate the heat exchanger in side. If the company can fabricate a high quality all aluminum radiator with an internal heat exchanger that is built with a reliable fittings and internal / external connections to the heat exhanger then you / they would likely find an eager audience in this forum.

They could also probably build a similar radiator without any exchanger for those who don't want it.

There seems to be some questions as to the feasability of modifying the stock radiator to eliminate the corrosion based failure. I would imagine a that a radiator specialist could disassemble a new OEM radiator and improve the materials and sturdiness of the exhanger fittings and connections. This type of service would also likely find an eager audience.

All speculation aside, if you want to make a convincing argument that the exchanger isn't really needed, you will probably have to do some real work. I would venture to say that the onus is on you to show with hard numbers that exchanger does little, or at least not enough to justify the risks that it might pose. Figure out how to read AT fluid temp, find out what the ideal AT fluid temp is, read the coolant temp, do comparison tests at cold, fully warmed up and extreme conditions etc etc. Till then, Honda engineers, though fallible, have the "cred."
 
WOW... that went sideways in a hurry ! ! ! :)

So, if I understand correctly, the broadly understood goal is to get us past the uncertainty of what many of us (myself included) consider a poor design (or design flaw if you prefer) with respect to the potentially failing interface between the trans cooler lines & our radiators, Yes?

If I can offer a compromise consideration.....

Instead of trying to recreate a 'better' radiator in it's entirety, how 'bout just fixing the part that's not working properly (the design flaw).
What I would propose is defining a new intermediate fitting that will engage with the radiator, but is made from a material that by design (material selection) will NOT corrode. Make this new piece a simple adapter that can be placed between the existing trans cooler fittings and the radiator, thereby removing the interface that seems subject to corrosive failure.

Anybody else think this might solve the problem???

If so, getting someone to design & fabricate a bunch of adapter fittings would certainly be less expensive than an entire radiator. (not to mention that some of us on here could undoubtedly design the thing)

What say ye to this... or have I just added more fuel to the fire??
 
WOW... that went sideways in a hurry ! ! ! :)

So, if I understand correctly, the broadly understood goal is to get us past the uncertainty of what many of us (myself included) consider a poor design (or design flaw if you prefer) with respect to the potentially failing interface between the trans cooler lines & our radiators, Yes?

If I can offer a compromise consideration.....

Instead of trying to recreate a 'better' radiator in it's entirety, how 'bout just fixing the part that's not working properly (the design flaw).
What I would propose is defining a new intermediate fitting that will engage with the radiator, but is made from a material that by design (material selection) will NOT corrode. Make this new piece a simple adapter that can be placed between the existing trans cooler fittings and the radiator, thereby removing the interface that seems subject to corrosive failure.

Anybody else think this might solve the problem???

If so, getting someone to design & fabricate a bunch of adapter fittings would certainly be less expensive than an entire radiator. (not to mention that some of us on here could undoubtedly design the thing)

What say ye to this... or have I just added more fuel to the fire??
Dnick,

Isn't your suggestion pretty much what I just stated as an option in the post above??

The question I have with modifying the stock radiator is what happens when you remove the existing fitting to get the corrosion prone washer off. Does it disrupt an internal connection to the heat exchanger that cannot be remade without taking the radiator apart? If so a radiator specialist (with the ability to remove the side tanks) would need to be involved. Is there a washer on the inside that is also corrosion prone? Is the connection to the heat exchanger simply too flimsy regardless of the corrosion prone washer? Dissecting a stock radiator would help.
 
My suggestion: just like timing belts, replace the Ridge radiator on a recurring basis, like 100K miles. My 2006 failed at 180K miles.

Seems the cooling coil can fail can occur in 2 ways. If the screw connection nipple pops off on the outside of the radiator then the tranny dumps its oil on the ground, and the radiator empties because the nipple creates the seal with the radiator. New radiator, replace the fluid, back on the street. that was my experience. The horrible failure is when the cooling coil fails inside the radiator, and radiator fluid gets into the tranny.
 
My suggestion: just like timing belts, replace the Ridge radiator on a recurring basis, like 100K miles. My 2006 failed at 180K miles.

Seems the cooling coil can fail can occur in 2 ways. If the screw connection nipple pops off on the outside of the radiator then the tranny dumps its oil on the ground, and the radiator empties because the nipple creates the seal with the radiator. New radiator, replace the fluid, back on the street. that was my experience. The horrible failure is when the cooling coil fails inside the radiator, and radiator fluid gets into the tranny.
I don't recall a victim of SMOD every NOT having the fitting pop off but I could be wrong.

Perhaps in some cases the "fitting coming off process" is slow enough that there is a sufficient period of time for the improper mixing of fluids and SMOD is the result?
 
Dnick,

Isn't your suggestion pretty much what I just stated as an option in the post above??
Yes, I agree, but I think he's just trying to consolidate that thought?

The question I have with modifying the stock radiator is what happens when you remove the existing fitting to get the corrosion prone washer off. Does it disrupt an internal connection to the heat exchanger that cannot be remade without taking the radiator apart? If so a radiator specialist (with the ability to remove the side tanks) would need to be involved. Is there a washer on the inside that is also corrosion prone? Is the connection to the heat exchanger simply too flimsy regardless of the corrosion prone washer? Dissecting a stock radiator would help.
Eurban, this statement makes me think you've never looked at nor replaced the radiator, because, first the "SIDE TANKS" are top and bottom, second, I doubt you have read every thread on the ROC, because if you had, you'd realize I've offered both my removed tanks for rebuilding, and asked for a "custom radiator shop," in Southern CA to be suggested. I've taken them locally, with the basic statement that they won't touch it with the plastic tanks. Third, in multiple posts I've proposed an alternate solution to the "waiting game", AKA Russian Roulette with a $3500-$5000 Transmission Rebuild, and that's if you do no other damage to the engine or the failure comes at an inopportune time, as in towing a trailer on a mountain road. Fourth, as I've stated and as I've read on other forums, the Belleville washer causes galvanic corrosion, which pops it off. Finally, my understanding once you break the external fitting the internal part which is only connected by the threaded fittings it will "Fall Away" from the lower tank and then be stuck internally in a position where you cannot reconnect it


My suggestion: just like timing belts, replace the Ridge radiator on a recurring basis, like 100K miles. My 2006 failed at 180K miles.

Seems the cooling coil can fail can occur in 2 ways. If the screw connection nipple pops off on the outside of the radiator then the tranny dumps its oil on the ground, and the radiator empties because the nipple creates the seal with the radiator. New radiator, replace the fluid, back on the street. that was my experience. The horrible failure is when the cooling coil fails inside the radiator, and radiator fluid gets into the tranny.
I think that would be a good option, along with UOA, monitoring along the way.

I don't recall a victim of SMOD every NOT having the fitting pop off but I could be wrong.

Perhaps in some cases the "fitting coming off process" is slow enough that there is a sufficient period of time for the improper mixing of fluids and SMOD is the result?
I've seen either Photos and/or Video where the external fitting is still attached, but the radiator cap has poped off or been removed and the coolant coming out looks pink with a white foam(envision a light pink head of beer) or pink whipped topping on top of a "Strawberry Milkshake". Where SMOD or Strawberry Milkshake of Death..
 
Yes, I agree, but I think he's just trying to consolidate that thought?



Eurban, this statement makes me think you've never looked at nor replaced the radiator, because, first the "SIDE TANKS" are top and bottom, second, I doubt you have read every thread on the ROC, because if you had, you'd realize I've offered both my removed tanks for rebuilding, and asked for a "custom radiator shop," in Southern CA to be suggested. I've taken them locally, with the basic statement that they won't touch it with the plastic tanks. Third, in multiple posts I've proposed an alternate solution to the "waiting game", AKA Russian Roulette with a $3500-$5000 Transmission Rebuild, and that's if you do no other damage to the engine or the failure comes at an inopportune time, as in towing a trailer on a mountain road. Fourth, as I've stated and as I've read on other forums, the Belleville washer causes galvanic corrosion, which pops it off. Finally, my understanding once you break the external fitting the internal part which is only connected by the threaded fittings it will "Fall Away" from the lower tank and then be stuck internally in a position where you cannot reconnect it




I think that would be a good option, along with UOA, monitoring along the way.



I've seen either Photos and/or Video where the external fitting is still attached, but the radiator cap has poped off or been removed and the coolant coming out looks pink with a white foam(envision a light pink head of beer) or pink whipped topping on top of a "Strawberry Milkshake". Where SMOD or Strawberry Milkshake of Death..
Like I already said, I replaced my radiator about 4 years ago. Am I lying? Admittedly my memory is a bit foggy about the radiator tank location. God knows I haven't read every thread in ROC particularly the radiator failure ones as the subject becomes quite repetitive.

While I don't think I have read your threads, my concerns about removing the fittings are echoed in your comments (about the exchanger falling away). If a good a shop is unable or unwilling to mess with radiator with plastic / aluminum construction then that is probably a signal that this (having an OEM radiator reworked) is a no go option. From my perspective, that is about the only "new" information that you have provided to my understanding of the situation in spite of me not having read your personal saga.

And yes as I have ALREADY said I think the best option is to replace the radiator routinely (every 5-7 years or so) Given the incidences of issues with aftermarket, I would probably just use OEM.

One other thing to consider here is that just one incident of overheating is enough to do some serious engine damage. There are many potential ticking time bombs in any vehicle. If you focus only on the heat exchanger issue and replace your radiator with something else, it better be a quality piece that is engineered to be reliable and up to the task of cooling the truck.
 
Well Unfortunately I've read every thread here on the ROC, I found out about this about the same time I was out for Surgery and had nothing to do but lay around and recover for about 3 weeks, I probably averaged 5-6 hrs a day trying to determine what was the best possible method to both Find and Fix this issue. That 's the longest I've ever not worked and the absolute most I've ever read. I've not only read about it here but also on Piloteers, since at the time My dad had a 2005 Honda Pilot and we were both concerned about the issue. I've also read threads on other Nissan, Toyota, and GM forums where this is a problem. At one point I believed this was an "Japanese Design" but I've seen it on Domestic vehicles, although to think about it know, those may have been "Badge Engineered Domestics"

And I do agree with you that they "Must Design it that way" for a reason because almost every OEM has had this issue occur to at least one vehicle or another.

But, unfortunately all my Automotive Engineers have since passed away, or I'd ask them WTF this was all about. But I cannot find in the OM or SM what this is attempting to do. I have yet to determine what direction the flow is for ATF at the Radiator and external cooler. About all I do know it it is one big loop, out of Trans into Radiator into external cooler back to trans or possibly reverse Trans, External cooler, Radiator then Trans.

I'd really like a Moderator or someone with the Honda "Batsignal" or any other automotive engineer to chime in would be greatly appreciated.
 
Dnick,

Isn't your suggestion pretty much what I just stated as an option in the post above??

The question I have with modifying the stock radiator is what happens when you remove the existing fitting to get the corrosion prone washer off. Does it disrupt an internal connection to the heat exchanger that cannot be remade without taking the radiator apart? If so a radiator specialist (with the ability to remove the side tanks) would need to be involved. Is there a washer on the inside that is also corrosion prone? Is the connection to the heat exchanger simply too flimsy regardless of the corrosion prone washer? Dissecting a stock radiator would help.
Well not really.... or at least not in my mind. It seems to me there is an assumption of complexity about this that I'm not sure holds. (I could be very, very wrong).
I am one of the many here who have NOT removed a RL radiator. But I have not been convinced that if the trans fittings are removed one at a time, the "internals" would not remain aligned enough to reconnect the "buffering replacement member" without issue. THIS is my gigantic assumption.
If my assumption holds, then each tranny line could be removed/replaced seperately, with the intermediate fitting being added to each as you go.

Now until someone actually tries to remove/replace one of these line fittings (there really isn't any good reason to do that normally), we can't know for certain if this "new fitting only" approach to risk mitigation is valid.

The difference in what I think I've proposed is that I didn't consider this approach as "rebuilding" or "modifying" our radiator; but I can see how this additional buffer fitting would in fact be considered a mod to the radiator, since it also holds the internal trans cooler/heater element in place.

Anyway.... I can't see that anyone really wants to tackle this. Personally, I don't think the refusal of a "transmission professional" to address this means anything about it's feasibility... but more really about the orthodoxy of it all.

If I had a separate radiator, I'd certainly give it a whirl.... I guess if mine ever needs replacement (I don't assume it will), then I'll find out!!

In the mean time, I don't think it's so outrageous for someone to be thinking outside of the box. I believe we all understand what the conventional approach is to avoiding the prospective time-bomb. But looking for a different solution shouldn't necessarily be killed on arrival. I salute the OP for thinking creatively. I just would be aiming smaller, since "whole radiator" solutions already exist.

:)
 
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