[Jeffrob]

Yes - the more time the torque converter clutch spends less than fully applied and the more power produced by the engine, the more heat is produced.

I think it's safe to say that the TCC is only released momentary during the transition into or out of 3-cylinder mode. Leaving the TCC unapplied or partially applied in 3-cylinder mode would offset the fuel economy gains of running in 3-cylinder mode.

I'm used to "sealed for life" automatic transmissions having been first exposed to them in mid-90s GM vehicles.

Just wondering, if the purpose of reprogramming the ECU to move the TCC quicker at shifts to avoid heat wouldn't having fewer transistions from lock to unlock help even more?

 

[F6Hawk]

Does the G2 have a tranny filter?

16k miles, including a 2000 mile round trip towing the car trailer through the mountains, and the trans has been fantastic.

Have not changed the fluid yet, but hoping to this weekend.

The drain plug should be magnetic, will report on fluid condition and magnet collection.

Takes 3.3 quarts, simple drain and fill.

 

[Jeffrob]

Those shift kits did make the trannies shift a lot harder. Perhaps surprisingly, that was good for the transmission (but perhaps very bad for the rest of the driveline downstream of the trans). In fact, that was part of a recommended fix for Dodge trucks in the late 80s/early 90s when they started having tranny failures behind the Cummins. Adding a shift kit was a key part of preventative maintenance to keep the tranny from failing, as well as adjusting valving to allow more fluid flow at lower rpms where the diesels delivered their torque.

I would think one could tap into the trans lines and add an additional cooler. Ideally, there should be a valve going to that extra cooler that only opens when a certain fluid temp is reached, like a thermostat on a radiator. That could go a LONG way toward keeping the fluid from being burnt, but still allowing the trans to get to operati g temp quickly.

I'm hoping that when the G3 comes equipped with the 13-spd DCT (or us it a TCT?), these archaic worries will be behind us. If that's not going to happen, at least give us a 6-spd manual. Are you listening Honda?

6 speed manual/with 2 speed transfer case? 9" clearance? Hooray!!

 

[Jeffrob]

6 speed manual/with 2 speed transfer case? 9" clearance? Hooray!!

But back to reality, What do you think, one early transmission D/F then every 30K, like they say.

 

[zroger73]

So what does the reprogramming actually do? It has to come at the expense of something, there is no free lunch. My guess is that it would hurt drivetrain feel or mpg's. I wouldn't mind if the reprogramming caused less VCM operation. If all these theories are correct, changing the Dw-1 more frequently seems like cheap insurance. I remember years ago, the rear diffs on CRV's were making noise within their recommended change interval. Solution, change the fluid more often.

If Honda "tightened" the shifts and/or TCC engagement speed and/or increased the amount of time the TCC spent fully applied, the feel of the transmission's operation would become more harsh, but fuel economy would increase since less slip = less waste heat = higher efficiency = higher fuel economy.

It's unlikely the vehicle would spend less time in 3-cylinder mode due to the negative affects on fuel economy. Honda didn't mention any affects on fuel economy in this TSB unlike the vibration fixes for the '15 CR-V where the customer had to acknowledge and sign off that they'd lose a MPG or two in exchange for smoother operation.

I agree that changing the fluid more often is cheap insurance, but it would be nice if Honda would apply the software update that supposedly prevents this issue altogether even if the vehicle hasn't (yet) experienced the judder. But, since it's not a safety issue and supposedly doesn't harm the transmission in any way (so says Honda), that's unlikely.

My guess is that re-programming would cause harder shifts, or rather, more abrupt shifts. If they do it right, it will only happen when the trans fluid gets above X degrees. Knowing Honda, it will be an algorithm involving rate of temp increase, ambient temp, elevation, etc.

They won't mess with VCM, as that will affect their MPG ratings and get them in hot water with EPA.

I concur.

Just wondering, if the purpose of reprogramming the ECU to move the TCC quicker at shifts to avoid heat wouldn't having fewer transistions from lock to unlock help even more?

The speed at which the TCC transitions from off to on and how much power the engine is producing at the time is what affects how much heat generation there is. It really doesn't matter if there there are 10 levels of application between fully off and fully on or 100.

Does the G2 have a tranny filter?

There is an external, inline filter.

But back to reality, What do you think, one early transmission D/F then every 30K, like they say.

I can't seem to keep a vehicle long enough for the first transmission fluid code to appear on the MM. (Oops!). Is it normally about 30K (about the 4th oil change)? I'd be inclined to change it at half the MM interval or maybe even at every oil change (which is around 8,000-9,000 miles for me) and forget the software update until we know if has any negative effects on shift quality. A few quarts of transmission fluid is less than $20 and takes just minutes.

 

[halfcar609]

I find it very interesting that Honda is coming out with this TSB. They must be having a high rate of failure for them to do this. Also it seems that they feel this must not be a problem for everyone but a problem for the few that drive or create that perfect "storm", hence the very specific diagnostic and problem code documentation required.

Before the G2, I was driving a '13 Accord V6. It had the same drivetrain as the G2 except for the AWD. I drove that car very spiritedly and one of the things that I did was change the ATF fluid often. My normal cycle was every 2nd or third oil change (16,000 to 24,000 miles). My point is (I put 118,000 miles on it before I gave it to my daughter) that I make this observation in that I could often feel the transmission get very sloppy or harsh right before the fluid change. Once I put fresh fluid in the tranny, the shifts felt good again. At the beginning I did the fluid changes just as cheap insurance for tranny longevity but quickly found out that it was doing more good than harm due to the improved performance of the tranny.

My G2 will not get as many miles as the Accord, but it will see some heavier use. So yesterday I got the B16 MM code. So, since I'm already draining the rear diff, I may as well do the tranny. The diff fluid is a dealer item and so is the DW1 tranny fluid, so asking for the additional fluid was a no brainer. The truck will already be up on the lift, so that made it a no brainer too.

I know that most of the new owners that have come on board with the G2 don't really know user csimo, but he was definitely on point with this issue. However rabid he is with Honda, he has truly never led anyone of us wrong. Joe, I Know you read all these post. Thanks for all you do for the ROC.

 

[Sparkland]

The TSB for the Accord on the Accord forum states "if the snapshot does not indicate a judder, this bulletin does not apply." In the case of the Accord it is bulletin 17-017 but I suspect the wording will be similar for the RL.

What I find confusing is that at a minimum the software be updated. Even if a snapshot reveals no judder, what suggests that there will not be one in the future? Kind of vague IMO.

Accord owners can get their car checked for this bulletin when they take it in for the battery sensor recall.

 

[halfcar609]

Accord owners can get their car checked for this bulletin when they take it in for the battery fire recall.

Yeah, that sucks for me. My daughter has my old Accord that falls under this recall. Luckily< I've have had the car since new and have not had any issues. The dealers don't have the new parts and not expected to in stock for the near future, the procedure calls for a short gap repair and then a subsequent parts replacement.

 

[zroger73]

Detailed information on the Accord battery sensor recall...

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2017/RMISC-17V418-2759.pdf

Temporary fix is apply adhesive to seal out moisture. Eventually, a new battery sensor will be available.

 

[Haymoose]

Is there a non-check engine light DTC generation I should worry about?
Are these indicators kept in the nboard log?
I have noticed nothing but do not wish to allow the old girl to carry on in a less than optimal posture.
I assume since my dealer has serviced it for other maintenance list items, they would have captured the codes?

 

[jhofwa]

Still have not been able to find copies of TSB 17-025 and 17-026 online. Have never used Dropbox - when I started to download the program for installation, my Norton security software had a fit - saying Dropbox had a variety of security problems and Norton didn't recommend using it.
I'd like to ready through the TSB's to have a better understanding of the issues. Discussions by knowledgable people on this site leave me confused - and comparing it to Accord issue(s) do nothing for me.
So, would someone either post the TSB's or provide a link to them, please.
Maybe it's just a sign of the times, but it seems that the service advisor at the Honda dealer that I've depended on for decades, seem to fall into two very distinct categories: 1. mature and dependable or 2. newer staff (not necessarily young). The 2nd group seem more focused on give short answers (presumably to get to the next customer in line -- without bothering to ask clarifying questions to really understand the issue(s)) which, for me, frustrates and causes me to take more time to get clarification or ask to talk to the service manager.

Anyway - if you have the TSB's and can post them, it would be much appreciated.

 

[zroger73]

Still have not been able to find copies of TSB 17-025 and 17-026 online. Have never used Dropbox - when I started to download the program for installation, my Norton security software had a fit - saying Dropbox had a variety of security problems and Norton didn't recommend using it.
I'd like to ready through the TSB's to have a better understanding of the issues. Discussions by knowledgable people on this site leave me confused - and comparing it to Accord issue(s) do nothing for me.
So, would someone either post the TSB's or provide a link to them, please.
Maybe it's just a sign of the times, but it seems that the service advisor at the Honda dealer that I've depended on for decades, seem to fall into two very distinct categories: 1. mature and dependable or 2. newer staff (not necessarily young). The 2nd group seem more focused on give short answers (presumably to get to the next customer in line -- without bothering to ask clarifying questions to really understand the issue(s)) which, for me, frustrates and causes me to take more time to get clarification or ask to talk to the service manager.

Anyway - if you have the TSB's and can post them, it would be much appreciated.

The links in the post below are for FileDropper, not DropBox. There is no need to download a program.

http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/...625-tsb-17-025-17-026-judder-torque-converter-lock-up-clutch-2.html#post2618457

Just click one of the links, then click "Download This File", type the characters that appear in the box, then click "Download Now". The .PDF file should download.

 

[UnicornKaz]

I have a few questions in regard to these TSB...etc.

Seems to me American Honda & Honda of Canada tackle these things independently (efforts), while bouncing off each others towards same goal, but why independently when it's being manufactured from the same plant ?? (good chance that info is on here somewhere :laugh

They at least should not have tried to "muddy" up things with so many unnecessary combo/options...etc. (or lack thereof >:grin

back to tackling things...why no official mail out to owners just like last TSB about c-601 ??

~~~~~

...started out venting.:laugh: ..then got madder !! :frown:..:|... >:grin:

 

[zroger73]

why no official mail out to owners just like last TSB about c-601 ??

The transmission judder is an annoyance - not a safety issue. As such, a TSB was written to instruct dealers what to do if and only if a customer comes in with a matching complaint. The procedure is performed at no cost if the vehicle is under warranty. Otherwise, the customer must pay.

The wiring harness water intrusion issue poses a safety risk since it could cause inappropriate activation of Vehicle Stability Assist leading to a crash. Honda could either do a voluntary recall or wait until they were forced to by the NHTSA. A recall never expires and must always be performed at no cost to the current owner regardless of the vehicle's age or mileage.

Very few TSBs are associated with recalls.

 

[Rigidline]

........but there is a very discernible shudder noise coming from the engine bay, and I cant quite get it to do it on command, but maybe this is the source of the problem. The TSB states that the judder can be felt, however it doesn't mention that it is audible as well? I don't feel it in the wheel when I'm driving its only a shudder noise that lasts maybe 1-2 seconds.

http://www.filedropper.com/17-025
http://www.filedropper.com/17-026



I find it interesting how some people swear that VCM is causing all sorts of prominent noises and vibrations while others can barely tell when it transitions. Admittedly, I have to focus intently to determine when it's running on 3-cylinders. Had I not known the vehicle had VCM, I'd never notice. It does make me wonder if they could actually be experiencing TC clutch judder instead.

I wonder if that is the sound I hear sometimes and think it is the subwoofer?

 

[Haymoose]

Anyone have a recording of this sound?

 

[csimo]

On April 13, 2017, Honda released two TSBs for all 2017 Ridgelines. UPDATE: This issue appears to affect all Honda/Acura vehicles with the 6AT dating back to at least 2012.

TSB 17-025 "Judder from the Torque Converter Lock-Up Clutch" and
TSB 17-026 "Judder from the Torque Converter Lock-Up Clutch After Software Update"

Symptom: A judder between 20-60 MPH that feels like a bad torque converter.

Cause: The transmission fluid may deteriorate quicker than expected due to intermittent high heat loads under specific driving conditions.

Solution: Perform a software update and flush (drain and refill twice) the transmission fluid. The software update is supposed to maintain an acceptable fluid temperature under all driving conditions, but some vehicles will still experience the judder and should be flushed (drain and refill three times) again.

Seems like I remember reading a post about a thermal issue related to design that Honda will attempt to patch with a software update a while back, but I was unable to find the post. I wonder if this was the situation that post was referring to. @csimo, do you have any additional details?

I have not checked to see if Honda cancelled my account in over a year, and to be honest I don't want to check. I used to have access to all that info but the last time I posted any info all I got were threats. Sorry.

 

[longboat]

I have not checked to see if Honda cancelled my account in over a year, and to be honest I don't want to check. I used to have access to all that info but the last time I posted any info all I got were threats. Sorry.

Joe,
The vast majority of us benefit greatly from your 'insider' information. There will always be uneducated or inexperienced or just plain undesirable folks on the inside and the outside who will not like some of your posts, but rest assured that many of us respect what you have to offer.

Honda needs to be more forthcoming to their core enthusiasts. I think this whole "loose lips sink ships" mentality is really overplayed on their part.

 

[Hillbilly Ridge]

Well... this is more than depressing. I was looking to get out this type of transmission trouble in the Colorado, by getting into a Ridgeline, I guess that won't be the case, unless the 18's aren't affected, does anyone know?

 

[zroger73]

Well... this is more than depressing. I was looking to get out this type of transmission trouble in the Colorado, by getting into a Ridgeline, I guess that won't be the case, unless the 18's aren't affected, does anyone know?

This shouldn't be a concern. In all likelihood, the software update went into production around or before the time this TSB was issued in April 2017. Ridgelines made after this date shouldn't be affected. Even if they were, this doesn't seem to be a very significant issue in hindsight. Honda claims the issue isn't doesn't damage the transmission. On the rare change you have an earlier 2017 and experience this issues, have the software update and fluid change done and carry on. If you have a later 2017 or 2018 and don't experience the symptoms, then I wouldn't give it another thought.