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Knocking sound coming from the engine.

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60K views 105 replies 13 participants last post by  jossa  
J
#1 ·
hi.

i have tried to search for similar cases but i have not been able to confirm the sound.
so i have made a video of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DRN4UoPeOI

can you please take a look at it and see if you can identify this knocking sound?



Sometimes when i start the car from cold, it hesitates and stutters for 30 sec to a minute.
i have changed all the gaskets on the top covers since they where leaking oil into the spark plug tube.
i have also changed all the spark plugs and coils.

it got better for a month and now it is back again.

it has also started to loose coolant, so i am changing the radiator (had to anyway because of the rusted transmission cooler lines)

if anyone knows anything please let me know..
i won't start whining about that once famous Honda quality.. yet.. :p
 
#3 ·
Jossa,

not sure how funny this is, but mine sounds identical as of 3 weeks ago!

Worse part, the noise intensity changes day to day. It's always there, and seems loudest near the front bank cam gear area.
On bad days, it's just like a connecting rod noise but it's perfectly quiet at the pan.

So far, my guess is either a bad cam (unlikely, as no misfire or rough running) or a failing T/belt tensioner?
I have the parts now, just no time to install.

Which one of us will confirm it first? !!!

BTW, I nearly traded out of my RL over it, cause I got scared. The more I listen though, the more I think it's not going to be serious. I hope.
 
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J
#4 ·
S.T.U.V: 140 ish.. i will check tomorrow



xrdad:

i have changed that not to long ago.. the sound did not go away.. and i do agree, it sounds like a rod knock almost
now i am thinking burnt valve or cracked head (cyl4 issue).. so i think i will just pull the head off and inspect it.. no point in putting it off and just reading about it..

i will check the compression first and see if there is anything off.. then i guess it no other thing to do then to pull the head off..
man i have had Honda's before, built and abused turbo engines and this is not impressive.. i guess Honda has gone the same way as the others..

i think i will fix this (whatever it is) and then sell the car and get a older land cruiser or hilux instead
anyone know of a good place to get used but refurbished heads?
i don't live in the US so i guess i can't complain to honda about this anyway. (as if they would listen to me)


i will post pictures and updates when i know more.
 
#5 ·
jossa said:
hi.

i have tried to search for similar cases but i have not been able to confirm the sound.
so i have made a video of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DRN4UoPeOI

can you please take a look at it and see if you can identify this knocking sound?



Sometimes when i start the car from cold, it hesitates and stutters for 30 sec to a minute.
i have changed all the gaskets on the top covers since they where leaking oil into the spark plug tube.
i have also changed all the spark plugs and coils.

it got better for a month and now it is back again.

it has also started to loose coolant, so i am changing the radiator (had to anyway because of the rusted transmission cooler lines)

if anyone knows anything please let me know..
i won't start whining about that once famous Honda quality.. yet.. :p
Click to expand...
Have you searched the forum for "cylinder number four issue" or "cylinder # 4 and 5 issue"? There was a problem with the heads on some early 3.5 Ridgeline engines.
 
J
#6 · (Edited)
OldNorske:

Greetings from Norge! :)
Er ikke sikkert du forstĂĄr dette, men tenkte du kanskje gjorde det ut ifra navnet ditt.


I have read about that.
My current theory is that the knocking sound is a worn down valve seat and the valve tapping the head.

But i am also fearful of a cracked top since mine is a 05/06 model , made in Canada (so it is of the first ones)
And i think i have seen blueish smoke when starting up.
If the coolant is leaking into the cylinder when the engine is off, that would definitely cause a misfire until the cylinder has dried up.


Edit: http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/...382-dealer-service-department-now-flashing-engine-light-vtm-4-light-lit-up.html

he had problems with bad fuel that killed the injectors.
i guess i have to ultrasonically clean them and see if that helps.
 
#7 · (Edited)
jossa, we've seen a few postings with similar sounds. I don't recall if the hydraulic tensioner fixed it (apparently not in your case) or if it turned out to be piston slap. Could be the cam too. I don't recall reading if the valves were ever adjusted.




I'll be curious to learn what you find out when you tear into it.
 
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J
#8 ·
speedlever:


The hydraulic tensioner has a higher frequency then my knocking sound.. it follows the pulses from the oilpump and not just a single point at every rotation..

this leads me to think valves, rod bearing, piston slap, injector or cam..

  • I think we can rule out the injectors due to the hard knocking sound, they tend to tick more then knock (but i will check them)
  • Could be a valve that is stuck open (but i would have seen it when i adjusted the valves)
  • Could be the valve seat is burnt ore that a valve is bent
  • Could be cylinder related (slaping piston, scoring etc.)


i actualy found a youtube video that made sense...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mARkNZXRT6Q

Jeremy StyglesFor 7 mnd siden
I took the engine out and here's a summary of what I found. I'll try to post pictures eventually.

To sum up the symptoms: It a 2006 J35A9 engine that sounds exactly like the Pilot in this post. It's a tick at 1/2 rpm, and it can't be heard until about 30 seconds after a cold start (cold oil). The ticking also isn't heard under load (acceleration) or cruising at high speeds - only at idle, or "parking lot" speeds. After having this problem for 15K miles, my check engine light started to come on. I discovered that the check engine light would go out when the oil level got Low enough. A fresh oil change would cause the engine light to come on, but after burning enough oil over a period of a month, the check engine light would go off again.

I suspected the heads, since valve train noises typically occur at 1/2 rpm. Also, a later version of this engine (2009+?) is known to have rocker arm vibrations issues. However, with a stethoscope, the noise was very loud at the oil pan, and not loud at either head. Still, I replaced the heads, and did timing belt & water pump as well. The noise did not go away, which was very depressing... Troubleshooting by replacing parts is expensive. That ordeal cost me $1200.

I took the engine out and disassembled it. The bearings were in great shape. Two cylinder walls were heavily scored however, along with their piston skirts. The deep grooves in the cylinder walls certainly explain the oil-burning. Basically, with a high enough level of oil, the crankshaft splashes the cylinder walls with oil. The piston rings should keep the oil out of the combustion chamber, but the deep grooves in the walls allowed some to get past the rings. When the oil level was below the crankshaft and could no longer splash into the cylinder walls, the oil-burning stopped. But, that makes the cylinder walls hot, which leads to mechanical problems over enough time.

I believe the grooves also explain the ticking. When I first started doing this troubleshooting last year, I did the standard cylinder cutout text by removing spark and fuel-injector power for each cylinder. That did nothing, which indicates that the noise is not related to combustion. My guess is that the noise is made on the compression upstroke of one piston. I think that air was "jetting" past the piston ring (via the scoring, grooves) during its compression upstroke, causing the piston to rock. This made the lower end of the piston tap against the cylinder wall. The tapping itself probably isn't a big deal. I only noticed a slight amount of smooth wear on the aluminum piston due to this (suspected) tapping. For me, the grooves were large enough to start burning oil, and that's what caused my ultimate headache.

Also, I had done compression tests earlier. They were fairly good. The grooves were only deep at the bottom of the cylinder, and I don't think that they actually inhibited strong compression.


That's it. Please let me know what you think!
Click to expand...

it does not look good.. i think i will have to pull out the engine and take off the oil sump and have a look..
mybe i can see scaring from the plug hole with a boroscope .. hmmm :|
 
#10 ·
jossa, please keep us informed what you find. This is very curious. Your engine knock sounds similar to others, but there doesn't seem to be a common cause that I've been able to determine.
 
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#11 ·
OldNorske:

Greetings from Norge!
Er ikke sikkert du forstĂĄr dette, men tenkte du kanskje gjorde det ut ifra navnet ditt.

No, I had to use Google Translate. I am fourth generation American. All my ancestors came from Norway in the 1800's. My father was fluent in Norwegian since he learned it as a child from his parents. He got the opportunity to visit Norway before he passed away. It was a life-long dream of his.

Sorry guys. I didn't mean to get off topic, but I had to respond. I am very proud of my ancestral heritage, and also very proud to be an American.

p.s. He said " you may not be able to understand this, but based on your avatar I thought you might".
 
J
#12 · (Edited)
Old norske: i see :) you shod take a trip to Norway then! Where did they come from?



On to car related news..

I could not find anything wrong.. except that it seam to be coming from around the flex plate/torque converter area.. i am currently under the car searching for loose bolts etc. Might be on to something here.
 
J
#13 · (Edited)
well after today's session i have not found the cause.. yet

soooo... the bloody thing is coming out!
i can say that Honda from the 80/90s are better built then this car.. (i have spent my youth in and around Honda's from that period, so i know)

it is sad to see that screws and brackets are rusting on such a new car, when the cars from the old days would be rust free. (except for body panels :p) and they design things to need special tools (but not like the crazy Germans are doing it, where you almost need special tools to get into your car)
well one thing has not changed, Honda's rust prevention on bodywork is still ****ty.


it is going to be interesting to see if i can remove the engine upwards instead of the OEM method of lowering it down..
i have started to dismantle everything that is in my way, and preparing to take it out..

i don't even want to try and diagnose it further while in the car :p


oh! and my coolant level was not really that low, i just put in 0.4 liters so it could have been air..
 

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#14 · (Edited by Moderator)
Old norske: i see :) you shod take a trip to Norway then! Where did they come from?



Stavanger, Hardanger, and other places. My brother did some research. They came in through Gulf of St. Lawrence. Then by canal boat, and overland.

Some settled in Wisconsin. Some settled in Iowa. Some ended up in Minnesota (that's where I was born).

It is a long story, as it is for so many people in this country.

OK... sorry again guys. Very off topic.
 
J
#15 · (Edited)
Old Norske: i see.. the west of Norway is really nice! i have worked there many times and i always want to go back there.. :)



Back to the patient, i have decided not to take the engine out yet..
So i took off the oil pan to have a look..

And behold...!!

Nothing of interest.... :nerd:

no significant amount of wear particles in the oil pan, and no apparent play in any of the rod/pistons.
that is strange, but i will try more tomorrow and see if i can find anything i missed today (it is getting late)
The only thing i notice is that the side towards the oil pump and timing belt has more black choke on it then the other side.. i am not yet sure why (maybe a bearing is spinning?)

but now i am thinking, burnt valve or flex plate?
could be a cross pin but i should have felt it.. :|

this is strange... but the hunt continues! :grin:
(and when i find out and fix it i am trading it in, i think)
 

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#16 ·
Why, if your trading it, kick it down the road and make it someone else's problem...

Once you go through the trouble to find and fix, enjoy the work and enjoy the ride!!! ;)
 
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J
#17 ·
i don't know.. i have a sickness, so whenever there is a mechanical mystery i have to know the answer to it! :grin:
and while i am at it i might as well fix it.. :wink:

and also i don't like the idea of it coming back to me if something is seriously wrong here..



naah, i am past enjoying that car.. i don't feel it anymore.. that sensation that gives you joy when driving..
 
J
#20 ·
so tonight work..

i have taken of the manifold an had a look at the inlet valves, nothing strange there..
i have also taken off the valve assembly on the front head (cylinders 4-6) and i have not found any strange things.. the vtec pins are moving freely but there are some wear on the shaft that the rocker arms are attached to (see next post)

i have to get a inside measuring device to check the rocker arms to the shaft..
 

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J
#21 ·
more pictures..


i could not feel any noticable play in the rocker arms to the shaft.. and all the rollers was nice and firm..

the front head has more varnish and Coke on it.. so it looks to have been hotter then the rear head.
 

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J
#22 · (Edited)
one more thing i got to think of was if the vtec oil valve was leaking oil, but that would show as damage to the interlock pins and would also increase as the rpm/oil pressure got higher

Edit: at higher RPM the oil pressure would engage the vtec (yo) and the noise would stop.. so it could actually fit..
edit end.


Also, the spring that the high vtec arm rest on could maybe make a noise if the spring gets loose?
it is just resting in a hole in the head.. naaah.. i don't think so.




i have the other head left to look at and take of the bearings for the rods, if that does not show anything i am giving it up..
it probably wont kill the engine soon anyway..
 
J
#23 · (Edited)
Hmm after ripping off the valve brige on bank 1 it looks like cylinder 3 has been hotter then 1 and 2..

Also it looked like the vtec rocker arm on cylinder 3 was hanging on slightly.. but when i took every thing apart it is nice and smoth.. strange..

Anyone reading this that has any ideas?

I am doing the bottom of the block in the weekend, taking of bearing caps and looking at that.. will also check for piston wobble/slap
 
#24 ·
So, any news?
 
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J
#25 ·
nope... none yet.

i am in the process of assembling the engine again but due to work and the weather, progress is slow.
i can't conclude with any particular damage to anything in the engine, might be a slight piston slap on one cylinder but it not so much that it can be observed..
 
J
#26 ·
i am changing the EGR valve and the PCV vavle.. they where gummed up.. but i have to order it form the us so it will be a couple of weeks waiting time for it..

today i checked the relief valve on the oil pump.. just to make sure it was moving freely.. i found burnt oil in there too... man this engine is dirty..

have cleaned it out and assembled it back together.. tomorrow i will change the filter from the vtec selonoid and re assemble the engine.. also changing the radiator since my oem one has rusted washers on it..


hmmm.. this is strange... i can't find any obvious damage to the motor that would cause this sound.. the cylinders look fine..
 
#27 ·
Kind of disappointed you didn't find anything? That's quite the conundrum!
 
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